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Chevy366
December 19th, 2007, 04:39 PM
Found this on Innovate site :
Tuning Tip: Ethanol Content

We've had a few reports where users could not “nail down” their tune on the street with the LM-1. The AFR's would jump about 0.5 AFR across the WOT band even in the same weather conditions in the space of a few days. Instead of holding a tune, the engine seemed to slowly “yodel.”

Naturally the first thing to blame was the LM-1. But it turned out that the users filled up at different gas stations, sometimes filling up on gas that had 10% ethanol mixed in. As expected, when Schnapps is mixed with cars, things get a little complicated.

If ethanol (stoich AFR of 9) is mixed with gasoline (stoich AFR of 14.7) the resulting gas has a lower stoich AFR than 'pure' gasoline. As the fuel injection is tuned to mix a certain amount of fuel for a given amount of air, the resulting mixture would be leaner when using a fuel with lower stoich AFR.

This can be calculated:

sAFR = (%ofAdditive * sAFRadditive + (90-%ofAdditive) * sAFRgas) /100

where:
sAFR is resulting stoich AFR
%ofAdditive is amount in % of mass of additive (ethanol) mixed in
sAFRadditive is stoich AFR of additive (9 for ethanol)
sAFRgas is stoich AFR of base gasoline (14.7)

For a 10% mixture of ethanol to gasoline by mass the resulting stoich AFR is 14.13

So, for an engine that's tuned to certain AFR at a certain load and RPM on straight gas, the resulting (gasoline equivalent) AFR when running the mixture can be calculated as:

new AFR = tuned gas AFR * (gasoline stoich ratio) / blend stoich ratio

An engine tuned to 12.5 gas AFR will run at the equivalent of 13 gas AFR with a 10% ethanol blend. This is what these people were seeing.

Of course, when running in closed loop, the engine will run at 14.13 AFR instead of 14.7. O2 sensors (incl. widebands) don’t measure AFR, but Lambda. Lambda is defined as actual AFR/stoich AFR. It's a ratio. In closed loop part throttle the engine is just running at Lambda 1.0, regardless of fuel. The same would be true for other Lambda values when running closed loop at WOT using a wideband. The engine would run at the tuned Lambda and everything would be fine. Open loop systems would need to be retuned for alcohol blends though.

Was curious as to anyones thoughts on it .
Do , don't , maybe , hmmmm , ? .

GMPX
December 19th, 2007, 11:28 PM
I just wish we could get more than a 10% blend out here, E85 would be nice :)

joecar
December 22nd, 2007, 09:21 AM
sAFR = (%ofAdditive * sAFRadditive + (90 - %ofAdditive) * sAFRgas) / 100

where:
sAFR is resulting stoich AFR
%ofAdditive is amount in % of mass of additive (ethanol) mixed in
sAFRadditive is stoich AFR of additive (9 for ethanol)
sAFRgas is stoich AFR of base gasoline (14.7)

For a 10% mixture of ethanol to gasoline by mass the resulting stoich AFR is 14.13TunedByGM,

Good find, good info...

So basically, in CL it will run at as expected (stoich, even tho stoich is different), but in OL it will run "lean"... interesting.

The equation posted by that site has a typo: the 90 should say 100.

Cheers,
Joe
:cheers:

gmh308
December 22nd, 2007, 10:24 AM
I just wish we could get more than a 10% blend out here, E85 would be nice :)

Apparently United are now marketing E85 at a few select stations in Sydney and Melbourne. Spoke to a guy running an E85 dual fuel Ford Discovery the other day.

Cheers, and have a nice xmas.

Chevy366
December 22nd, 2007, 06:28 PM
What gets me is where I live they sell E85 capable autos but there is no E85 station around . Watched a vid on Jay's Garage (www.jaylenosgarage.com) about his custom made Corvette (was at SEMA) that runs on E85 , he (Jay Leno) seems to like E85 for powering his Hot Rods .:notacrook:
To political , might be good fuel , but the political crap attached is horrifying .:nixweiss:

vatman02
December 23rd, 2007, 05:15 AM
I would like know how they made that corvette be flex fuel. I have my Trans Am running on E-85, but I want to be able to still use gas without retuning it. It is sometimes difficult to find an E-85 station, and it definetly wont allow for any long road trips. GM should should try makeing a few vehicles that are strictly E-85. They could bump up the compression to 13:1 crank up the timing and make a pretty powerfull car.

Chevy366
December 23rd, 2007, 05:35 AM
Contact Jay Leno through his website , he is a gear head , he or someone that works for him may explain how they made the Corvette E85 friendly .
I think a the start of the video he explains who did the conversion for him and go to their website .

Don't remember what company had the duel injector set up , but stated you could drive to the track on gas then switch to Ethanol at the track , weird .

Garry
December 23rd, 2007, 05:54 AM
Germany has passed a law (or are planing to) that will increase the current 5% Ethanol in regular and premium fuel to 10% from 1/1/2009. Only the highest grade fuel will remain at 5%, due to the fact that many (most?) older cars haven't been approved for running on anything higher than 5%.
I wonder, is the basis for this just the AFR changing, or are there any other reasons for not being able to run on 10% Ethanol? (like gaskets being damaged etc.)
So, all anybody with EFILive (or other tuning software) would need to do is change the AFR settings?

TAQuickness
December 23rd, 2007, 06:22 AM
Older systems will suffer as Ethanol, alcohol rather, absorbs water, and when combined with H2O, is corrosive. The newer flex fuel systems have plumbing designed to resist the corrosive effects of Ethanol. I'm not sure how OEM's off set the corrosion in the cylinders though.

Lot's of spun marketing with Ethanol.

TunedbyGM - Good find and thanks for sharing.

Garry
December 23rd, 2007, 06:39 AM
Would be nice to know which parts of an LS1 would need replacement with a higher percentage of Ethanol ...

kbracing96
December 23rd, 2007, 06:52 AM
There is a guy in LS1Tech, goes by RUNN that changed his F-body over to E85. He is in Sweden and it's MUCH cheaper then gas over there. He did a big writeup on it. Basically all he did was put bigger 42lbs/hr injectors in it and changed the tune. Did nothing to the fuel system. I honestly believe these fuel systems will handle the ethanol without any corrosion problems just fine. He has been running like this for over 2 years now and hasn't had any problems. I would love to run my truck on it, but I don't have anywhere to buy the stuff. The turbo would LOVE it :D.

Chevy366
December 23rd, 2007, 07:35 AM
Have done some extensive reading on Ethanol in the past .
Ethanol is not corrosive just tends to break lose deposits left from having gasoline in the system (larger injectors , but some say they have ran with stock injectors on problem E85) , so filter change is needed , Methanol on the other hand is corrosive .

TAQuickness
December 23rd, 2007, 08:03 AM
This should give you an idea of what needs to be changed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

TAQuickness
December 23rd, 2007, 08:05 AM
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines

TAQuickness
December 23rd, 2007, 08:16 AM
Seems like an Ethanol injection, as opposed to Meth, would be better for FI....

Chalky
December 23rd, 2007, 08:47 PM
We have E10 around and have had it for years. For the first 10 years, E10 was more expensive than ethanol free gas outside of SE Wisconsin. Still haven't figurred that one out.:D

I havea tune setup for E10 but will not be able to try it until spring. Soem say that E10 is negligable in terms of changing your tune around for it. I think a half point of AFR is significant.

One thing that caught my attjention is looking at the OLCf for te E38 ECM. This OS has a blending table that does not start to adjust for ethanol until after 10% ethanol and maxes @ 80% ethanol.

After seeing this, it just makes me wonder if 10% ethanol is insignificant. This makes sense to anyone?

:confused: :sleigh: :help:

GMPX
December 23rd, 2007, 11:42 PM
The 'official' stance from most OEM's is that 10% requires no changes to anything. I see that as 10% less money that goes to the.......ahhh, I better stop in the Christmas spirit :)
Though wiki sums that up in this statement on the advantages of E85 at least -
"such as increased economic benefits for rural populations, less reliance on foreign energy"

Cheers,
Ross

Chevy366
December 26th, 2007, 07:56 AM
www.prattmiller.com

TAQuickness
December 26th, 2007, 08:35 AM
www.prattmiller.com (http://www.prattmiller.com)

Perhaps I'm not the sharpest marble in the bag, but I'm not seeing the relation between prattmiller and E85. :help2:

Chevy366
December 26th, 2007, 09:33 AM
Perhaps I'm not the sharpest marble in the bag, but I'm not seeing the relation between prattmiller and E85. :help2:
Built Jay Leno's Corvette , first E85 Corvette shown at SEMA , someone asked about info on the Corvette .
I think this is the E85 car they are going to sell : http://prattmiller.com/customernews.php?NewsID=524
Pics : http://www.prattmiller.com/gallery.php?id=251