E38 SD TCS Patch Issues

[swingtan]

Hi Guys,

I've been playing with SD on the E38 and come across an interesting problem. I'm testing on a manual car and applied both TCS patches and performed a full re-flash. Now when performing acceleration tests and changing from first to second, I get a huge stutter just as I get back on the power after the gear change.

The first time it happened, Jezza an I thought it may have been fuel surge as the tank was low and I'd just performed a left turn. But it happens nearly every time I do a gear change after letting it rev out a bit. Quick changes at lower RPM's don't see the stutter, only when there's a good chance of traction loss on a gear change.

Before anyone asks, yes the TCS was switched off using the console switch, so it should not be active. Turing the switch off when running without the patches ( and with the MAF enabled ) results in good powerful shifts with no torque reduction.

To test out my theory that the patches may not be working correctly, I disabled all TCS settings in the tune and set the TCS enable RPM to 8000. I then went out again to see what the difference was. This time, not stutter. I've attached some log segments to show what is happening.

log_TCS.efi shows the stutter on gear change, in it you can see...


The throttle opening rate slow down. ( remember this is an ETC vehicle ).
A sharp drop in spark advance.
fuel mixture leaning right out. Though I'm guessing that this was more due to the rapid throttle opening.


the only TCS settings enabled in the tune for this were TCS reduction by spark and TCS reduction by throttle. TCS reduction by fuel was disabled. Again, remember that traction Control was turned of by the switch for this run.

log_no-TCS.efi shows no stutter at all

Any idea's on this one? I must admit I almost needed a change of pants after the first time it happened.

Simon.

[GMPX]

Grab the latest .cal files from here -
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5540

Look for B0530 - B0532.
Not sure what vehicle you have there though?

Cheers,
Ross

[swingtan]

Hi,

I just updated the cals and checked those settings. All are set to no. However B0527 and B0529 are set to yes. The thing is, this only started after trying SD tuning and applying the 2 patches, B9901 and B9902. If I get a chance I'll try removing them and re-enabling TCS to see if it still occurs.

The vehicle is an L76 ( 2006 VZ ). Thanks for the tip on the cals though, seems to be a bit more in there to play with.

Simon.

[The Alchemist]

JUST TUNING A ve HOLDEN AND i HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM ALTHOUGH it doesn't seem to be related to a Mafless patch. Over 3000rpm I can nail it and no stutter but under say 2000 rpm its really bad and you can't even get 50% throttle. Its not torq control as I lifted the limits very high to over 1000nm....This has a 224 cam in it though which changes things a wee bit :)
Disabled b0530,31,32 and it still does it. Will reflash with each one turned off to see what one of the TCS is doing this..... update this afternoon......Its does it regardless of the ECS switch being on or off too , Axle protection, wheel hop and clunk reduction.....

Hey GMPX > do these different TCS "types" also have modifier tables associated with them linked to say delivered torq vs TPS or something similar that you are still "extracting" out of the GM code? Also in B5123 the explanation refers to "desired coast down rpm" which suggests there is a table for desired coast down RPM available....are these things sort of in the pipeline so to speak.....?

[The Alchemist]

TRYING TO ATTACH A Jpg file with a log....
right that worked.....
Turned off all TCS from b0515 to b0532 and enabled the MAF back on line and it still won't allow even 30% throttle under 2500rpm without spark retard, it even does it at a constant speed at 1800rpm, as per the log, causing a light miss at cruise.


Any ideas people.

Mike

[Black02SS]

Hi,

I just updated the cals and checked those settings. All are set to no. However B0527 and B0529 are set to yes. The thing is, this only started after trying SD tuning and applying the 2 patches, B9901 and B9902. If I get a chance I'll try removing them and re-enabling TCS to see if it still occurs.

The vehicle is an L76 ( 2006 VZ ). Thanks for the tip on the cals though, seems to be a bit more in there to play with.

Simon.
I have the same problem here on my 07 Vette. I thought it was because the weather got crappy and I wasn't able to finish the tune. Hmm..

[The Alchemist]

Hi people I just reflashed with my last changes which was to raise the TCS on limit to 8000rpm, everything else is "off" and its as bad as ever !!!!!!!!! Can't nail it at all, you can only very gradually bring in the throttle until 2500rpm then nail it. It also seems directly proportional to rate of change of the TPS, the quicker you nail it the more aggressive the spark cut
Mike

[The Alchemist]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1361913&page=4

look what I found on a US forum site.........
Brake torq limit vs vacuum vs TPS....
perhaps this is the "missing" table.......

[dynarex]

ran several tunes and all is well-but i noticed that the tables b8034,b7902,3,4 all are out of range
so i tried to adjust and they wont go over the max limit-so i said forget it and loaded the tune-well the truck died
i limped it home and read the codes -then checked the history and the tables that i tried to adjust said i changed the values from numbers way above the efi limits even though i didnt change them
this is on a 2008 sierra 1500 l98 auto with the e38ecm
sorry for being unclear -will fix my sig
_dont touch these tables-there is an error in the way efi reads them!!!_________________

[The Alchemist]

b2522, finally turned off TCS completely. Simply put zeros in it so TCS is still activating but pulling zero timing....dangerous but fun at the same time in a car making 295kw!!! at the wheels.
If the table in my earlier post is "missing" but becomes available then it would be better, safer, to leave TCS enabled but raise the maximum torq limits in the problem area of low revs/high vacuum. The car hauls now and would be dangerous in the wrong hands without TCS. Breaks loose in 3rd when it hits the cam.

[swingtan]

This is my point. If you enable TCS in the tune, but try to turn it off with the TCS switch, it seems to remain active. I only noticed this after applying the two patches. Removing "Clunk Control" and "Throttle Tip In" does help a little, but I still get some hessitation on quick changes. I've tried adjusting CFCO settings and this had a small effect, but not enough. I think I need some more testing to see if I can work out the exact conditions when it occurs.

Simon.

[GMPX]

ran several tunes and all is well-but i noticed that the tables b8034,b7902,3,4 all are out of range
so i tried to adjust and they wont go over the max limit-so i said forget it and loaded the tune-well the truck died

Can you please confirm those table numbers?
B8034 = Estimated MAP
B7902 = Low Baro threshold for VVT control

Cheers,
Ross

[GMPX]

The table shown in that thread is related to Brake Torque Managment, whats that?
Standing still, put foot on brake, floor accell pedal. On the Holdens if you turn off the TCS then it ignores that 'feature' anyway. It should only be active with TCS on.

Cheers,
Ross

[Black02SS]

Ross mine started this when I applied the patch as well. I can't, but maybe one of you needs to try and load a stock unpatched file back into the vehicle and see if it still has the hesitation. I didn't have this problem when the car was unpatched.

[Black02SS]

The table shown in that thread is related to Brake Torque Managment, whats that?
Standing still, put foot on brake, floor accell pedal. On the Holdens if you turn off the TCS then it ignores that 'feature' anyway. It should only be active with TCS on.

Cheers,
Ross

I don't see any reason for this table to have any impact on the problem that we are seeing. Like you said, its just used when braking the vehicle.

[dynarex]

Can you please confirm those table numbers?
B8034 = Estimated MAP
B7902 = Low Baro threshold for VVT control

Cheers,
Ross
tables-
Engine Operation.Airflow.General
{B8034} Estimated MAP Maximum, was out of range when loaded.

Engine Operation.Camshaft Phasing
{B7902} Low Baro Threshold, was out of range when loaded.
{B7903} Med Baro Threshold, was out of range when loaded.
{B7904} High Baro Threshold, was out of range when loaded.
this is what i get at every opening-if i try to adjust the truck will not run past 20% throttle-tcs/abs/reduced engine power and every other warning comes on

[swingtan]

The table shown in that thread is related to Brake Torque Managment, whats that?
Standing still, put foot on brake, floor accell pedal. On the Holdens if you turn off the TCS then it ignores that 'feature' anyway. It should only be active with TCS on.

Cheers,
Ross

This is th point I was trying to make. Even when I switch off the TCS via the TCS switch, I get the hesitation on a WOT change. Disabling all TCS settings ( activation RPM set to 8000 ) seems to make the hesitation go away.


Ross mine started this when I applied the patch as well. I can't, but maybe one of you needs to try and load a stock unpatched file back into the vehicle and see if it still has the hesitation. I didn't have this problem when the car was unpatched.


I'll have a go at this. It's an 11min reflash to remove the patches so I'll see when I can get it done. I'm almost certain that removing the patches restores the full functionality of the TCS switch, but I'll also need to plugg the MAF back in.......

Simon.

[swingtan]

Ok, I had to drop one of my daughters friends off home this evening so tried a quick test. I had the following settings and it was shifting fine, though the TCS switch was pretty useless....

B0515 and B0517 set to yes.
All other TR yes/no options were set to no.
B2501 and B2502, maximum and minimum engine torque were set to 1000
The rest of the settings are pretty much stock.

Tomorrow I'll try setting the torque settings to something more "reasonable"...

[The Alchemist]

My problem wasn't on gear changes, this is a manual car, the problem was it was activating spark retard traction control as a CONSTANT speed say 45km at 1800rpm in 3rd, lightly press down the throttle and it spark cut even harder. Once I turned that setting from 100's to zero's which deactivated TCS completely the problem stopped and the car drove normally

[The Alchemist]

Hey Swingtan, any luck with the TTC issues yet, has any one else had this problem with spark retard happening at a constant speed caused by the TTC system?

Mike

[swingtan]

Hi Mike,

actually, no. I came down with a bit of a cold and got side tracked on a cold start problem. I'll have a go tomorrow and see what happens. I think it'll still be there though.

Simon.

[GMPX]

A trend is emerging on the E38 that TCS off is more like, TCS sort of off. I'll look in to it when I get back to Aus next week.

Cheers,
Ross

[swingtan]

Thanks Ross. I'll have a bit more of a play to see if there is any trends. If it gets too bad I'll just turn it off for now.

Simon

[The Alchemist]

If you want logs I have a few others I could send you Ross showing the spark retard happening under constant speed or under tps accel movement. I logged Spark traction control DMA pid and it was definately that pid that was causing the problem. B2522 is the ONLY thing that "deactivates" it. Its still actually working but you are commanding zero torq retard by spark as a maximum.
Mike

[GMPX]

ok, thanks, that helps.

Cheers,
Ross

[The Alchemist]

I've got the car back on wednesday for a week, Ross...is there anything you would like me to check or TEST with the traction control issues. I can log stuff and e-mail results etc.

Mike

[Black02SS]

I removed the patch from my car and it removed the issue.

[The Alchemist]

bump

[swingtan]

I've been doing a bit of testing on mine and found that if I dull down the TCS settings a a fair bit, I don't get the problem when TCS it switched off. It does meant the it's much less aggressive when turned on though. In particular, I've got the following...

B2501 = 650
B2502 = 0
B2503 = 90
B2504 = 35

I do still get a fairly rough toque control hit if TCS is on and I go for a quick gear change. I still have to work that one out.

Simon

[The Alchemist]

try lowering the b2522 table from 100's to 50's or even 25's and see what that does.....
With everything else set to "no" I'm left with spark retard hitting between 1000 to 1800rpm only when at a constant speed pulling up to 10 to 20 deg every 5 to 10 times a second. Really annoying. This is with b2522 set to all "100"s. "0"s in this table stops the problem.
Mike
update been out for a drive and found that even setting b2522 to "10"s still allow spark retard to cause this problem pulling up to 20 deg at times. Also it won't do it in 1st gear at all, 2nd gear only a little but now and then but as soon as you change into 3rd aways it goes with spark retard going nuts at light throttle. Get over 1800rpm and it goes away. Back to the drawing board.....

[The Alchemist]

a big thanks to Ross, right out of left field it turns out that "spark smoothing" is the culprit. deactivate that and the problem stops and I can now load the car at 1800rpm full throttle and no spark retard happening and I get a clean run.
Thanks GPMX! :cucumber:

[hymey]

Good info here guys. This explains things with my SD tune in my 2008 VE SSV M6.

I never installed the patches at any time. My MAF tune already had most of the torque parameters set to "No" bar

B0532, B0531, B0530, B0529, B0527. These were set to "yes".

My torque timing retard tables are all set to zero. The rpm TCS activation is set at standard.

With my MAF tune I had no problems at all. But with the mafless tune.Even though TCS was switched off the car would pull timing aggressively through the gears. I could never see the TCS light flashing though. Upon a fast gear shift it would hold back and then accelerate again.

After reading this post I made some changes. I have decided to eliminate the TCS function altogether.

I have switched the throttle tip in settings all to "No". Clunk reduction settings have also been set to "No".

B2510 and B2511 rpm activation have been set from stock to 8000rpms. B2522 as already stated was already changed to 0 deg retard across the board.

B0301 spark smoothing was set to "Yes" interesting thing is this is only optional for manual transmissions. I selected this to "No". I believe this is the answer to our problems as "Alchemist" has learnt. A friend of mine didn't have this problem with his auto VE going mafless. Probably because the spark smoothing doesn't exist.

I have the tune changed ready to go. My car is at the panel beaters atm as my better half reversed into it! :shock: I will be picking the car up tomorrow with my laptop under my arm:cheers:

Anyone else going mafless with M6 E38 please share your experiences.:gossip:

cheers

Joel

[The Alchemist]

Hey Joel, glad to here someone else benefitting from my dramas, thats wot these forums are all about :)
I see you're about to fit a cam......you'll shit yourself when you first take it for a drive!!! :cucumber:

Cheers,

Mike
:cheers:

[GMPX]

As nice as the E38 & E67 are, the do leave us all a little baffled on occasion :throw:

[hymey]

Yes. These e38s are a different ball game. Previous to this I have only tuned microtech ecus on turbo engines. The capabilities are endless with the e38. I find I spend more time changing fiddly settings than I do tuning the car.

Mike, what cam did you fit to the L98?

Cheers

Joel

[The Alchemist]

A texas speed 224/224 581thou lift 114 LSA. Took a week tuning it to get it almost perfect to drive normally yet have good power at the same time. The first ones always the hardest, I have 2 more booked in this month but both Autos :( A bit more fiddley to get right. Just a foot note, when you do the cam you need a new 3 bolt cam sprocket and you need to replace the tensioner system with a LS2 dampener > long winded reasons, answers on a US corvette forum.....
A 224/224 moved peak torque right up to 5500rpm but lost no bottom end power at all. Transformed the car! The brakes are now totally inadequate for the performance of the engine and the clutch WILL slip if you try moderately hard to do a "launch". And its brand new too! 2500km on the clock
Just something to consider.....
For the Autos we're goin with the 220/220 to improve the bottom end torque and lower the usable RPM slightly tosuit the auto better
Mike

[hymey]

I was aware of the cam sprocket. But first Ive heard of the dampener. Why does it require replacing? You would have a lot more timing in it now with the 224 cam?

[The Alchemist]

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0608htp_comp_cams_camshaft_installation/valvespring_removal.html
have as read of this.....
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0608htp_comp_cams_camshaft_installation/photo_41.html
heres a pic of the dampener

http://www.lingenfelter.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=L200175307&Category_Code=

hers a pic of the "kit" although they are GM parts and you can buy them ex USA cheap as.
I have the part numbers if you want them
Timing up about 3 to 4 deg at full load right through except you find you don't need to ramp up the timing until the cam comes in around 3400rpm with the 224/224. I run around 25 to 26 deg at this point on our crappy 95 octane fuel.


Mike

[hymey]

Thanks Mike!

Did you buy the lingenfelter kit? Whats the p/n.

cheers

Joel

[ringram]

Excellent info chaps. I was never a fan of tcs anyway, cant see the point upping the power then removing half of it through the ECU. Maybe it helps shape the power output, but I thought thats what the throttle was for!?
I guess it helps granddad drive to church without oversteering into oncoming traffic.

FWIW the E Series HSV R8 has a horrible power profile stock. No power until you get the RPM up. Im betting its TCS stealing all my neddies.

[hymey]

Hey ringram. Your problem would be the oversensitive KR it will pull timing aggresively even on high octane fuel. Your IAT will be high aswell due to the MAF being heatsoaked.

By the way my problems running mafless have been fixed. No more surging between gears, unsteady idle or problematic starts. Switching off spark smoothing solved this.

Car runs very smooth now. very responsive and snappy with more power everywhere over the maf tune.

[The Alchemist]

http://forums.trailvoy.com/showthread.php?t=34000


Mike

[ringram]

Thanks hymey, I did turn spark smooting off right away and we have 98 octane here so I dont really get any spark retard.
I find the lack of a cracker/follower function a bit inhibiting as rpm drops pretty sharp during gear shifts, I find it smoother to keep some throttle on while shifting..

I need to do lots of reading on this forum to get up with speed on the e38 :)

[hymey]

Have you played with the B5152. CFCO. This will slow down the engine revs on gearshifts. It is there to replace the throttle settings.

It uses timing to slow down rpms between shifts.

[ringram]

Aha, ok cool will take a look. Only 4 days into the e38..

[jrh]

Our part number for the single bolt to 3 bolt camshaft conversion kit is:

L200175307

We retail it for $69.95.



Thanks Mike!

Did you buy the lingenfelter kit? Whats the p/n.

cheers

Joel

[lb7diesel]

Anyone care to show me how to turn off the torgue managment/ TCS on my dad's 2007 silverado. Can I do what's mentioned in this thread?

Thanks

[ScarabEpic22]

Anyone care to show me how to turn off the torgue managment/ TCS on my dad's 2007 silverado. Can I do what's mentioned in this thread?

Thanks

Is it a NBS or classic? Post up the tune, I have my trans shifting the way I want it (fast and firm). Or email it to me (in profile) and mention about how you want it to shift.:cheers:

[lb7diesel]

Is it a NBS or classic? Post up the tune, I have my trans shifting the way I want it (fast and firm). Or email it to me (in profile) and mention about how you want it to shift.:cheers:

Thanks for the reply. It's the new body style. The only thing I've changed in the ECM< is the timing, which I used stock SS timing parameters.

Can you give me your e-mail and I'll send it. Do you need the TCM file also?

[ScarabEpic22]

I will need the TCM file too, Im not going to be much help on the ECM part but Ill take a peek and see if there's anything I can do. For my email, click on my username and go send email. :)

[lb7diesel]

Sounds good. Thanks. So what your saying is that the TCS in the ECM doesn't need addresed as stated in this thread? I'm taking these guy's have GTO's and it doesn't apply to trucks?

[ScarabEpic22]

I cant speak for TCS, Im talking TM here. There are ECM and TCM parts for TM, Id assume the same for TCS. You want to turn Traction Control off? I guess if hitting the button all the time gets old but why else?

[lb7diesel]

I cant speak for TCS, Im talking TM here. There are ECM and TCM parts for TM, Id assume the same for TCS. You want to turn Traction Control off? I guess if hitting the button all the time gets old but why else?


I def want the t/m off:) The reading i've done tells me that the tcs is pulling timing and my dad's truck has a terrible dead spot when you punch it and also after it shifts into 2nd. Just don't know why it builds all this rpm and speed in 1st then just turns into a turd after the shifts. Thought maybe the tcs was causing this fall on it's face symptom.

[ScarabEpic22]

I def want the t/m off:) The reading i've done tells me that the tcs is pulling timing and my dad's truck has a terrible dead spot when you punch it and also after it shifts into 2nd. Just don't know why it builds all this rpm and speed in 1st then just turns into a turd after the shifts. Thought maybe the tcs was causing this fall on it's face symptom.

Thats TM, TCS only pulls timing when you dont have traction so hopefully you dont spin out.

Email me your tune man!

[hymey]

I def want the t/m off:) The reading i've done tells me that the tcs is pulling timing and my dad's truck has a terrible dead spot when you punch it and also after it shifts into 2nd. Just don't know why it builds all this rpm and speed in 1st then just turns into a turd after the shifts. Thought maybe the tcs was causing this fall on it's face symptom.

Have u disabled spark smoothing, this is what my car did. Turned it off, problem gone.

Good Luck

Joel

[lb7diesel]

Thats TM, TCS only pulls timing when you dont have traction so hopefully you dont spin out.

Email me your tune man!

Scarab, I fig out the T/M. I have it shifting firm and quick without much shift lag ( Takes us diesel guy's a bit longer than you gas tuners):). What I'd like to work on now is figure out what table/table's are reducing power on launch. The truck won't even power brake the factory 20's and is a turd out of the hole. Could this be TCS pulling power/timing? Thanks for the continued help:grin:


Have u disabled spark smoothing, this is what my car did. Turned it off, problem gone.

Good Luck

Joel

Joel, I read this thread and tried to apply what was said into my dad's ECM. After applying what was said here into the TCS tables I had to go out and rescue pop's b/c his truck shut down in rush our traffic on the test run:hihi:

I will disable spark smoothing and try that. What other tables should I be changing. I got a little confused on the Yes/No TCS parameters. Pardon my ignorance.

Joey

[joecar]

hey frndz I want info about TCS plz help…What year/model/vehicle do you have, and which ECM...?

What is your engine RPO...?

Which FlashScan do you have...?

[GMPX]

Joe, the guy was a spammer :Throwup:

[joecar]

Ok, thanks, it's hard to tell sometimes.

[gmh308]

These people must be astonishingly bored!