what to do when......

[WHYTRYZ06]

you finish autove, thats set...how do you change WOT fueling w/cos3 after you've done autove....??? kinda confused....

changeing wot fueling w/o screwing up the autove you've just done....

am I making any sense???

im gonna have b3647 in cos3 control fueling... no PE....

thx

[joecar]

Set your desired WOT AFR by adjusting the last 3 columns in B3647.

Not running a blower/turbo, then set the AFR to something like 12.6-13.0.

This won't mess up your autove, your BEN's will still be the same.

AutoVE works by comparing the commanded AFR with the measured AFR; by changing B3647, you're changing the commanded AFR, and if your VE table is dialed in, then the measured AFR will follow the new commanded AFR.

[WHYTRYZ06]

ok, lemme ask u this.. if you dont setup autove and dial in the ve table, and u go the cos3 route and you use b3647 to control fuel, why is it that the fuel you command dosent match the wb...

i tried the cos3 deal and had b3647 control fuel exclusevly, the wb read 14.0 @ wot, when i had it set to 12.5 in the table...

[WHYTRYZ06]

Set your desired WOT AFR by adjusting the last 3 columns in B3647.

Not running a blower/turbo, then set the AFR to something like 12.6-13.0.

This won't mess up your autove, your BEN's will still be the same.

AutoVE works by comparing the commanded AFR with the measured AFR; by changing B3647, you're changing the commanded AFR, and if your VE table is dialed in, then the measured AFR will follow the new commanded AFR.

so what your saying is that autove wont mess up the last 3 columns of b3647??

[joecar]

AutoVE changes B0101 and does not change B3647.

If PE is not involved, then PCM obtains the commanded AFR from B3647;
PCM uses B0101 to compute the airmass;
PCM then computes the fuelmass required to meet the commanded AFR (AFR = airmass/fuelmass);
PCM uses B4001 to compute injector pulse width, and sprays fuel.

Wideband measures the AFR, and if B0101 has been "corrected" using AutoVE, then the measured AFR equals the commanded AFR (this is the definition of AutoVE).

[joecar]

ok, lemme ask u this.. if you dont setup autove and dial in the ve table, and u go the cos3 route and you use b3647 to control fuel, why is it that the fuel you command dosent match the wb...

i tried the cos3 deal and had b3647 control fuel exclusevly, the wb read 14.0 @ wot, when i had it set to 12.5 in the table... Because the VE table has not been corrected using AutoVE.


so what your saying is that autove wont mess up the last 3 columns of b3647??Yes that's right.

The PCM uses B0101 to compute airmass from the various sensors (IAT, MAP).
The PCM uses B3647 to know what AFR you want commanded.
The PCM then computes the fuelmass needed to meet your commanded AFR.

[joecar]

If B0101 is not corrected, then the PCM computes an incorrect airmass from it...

The PCM then looks up the commanded AFR (B3647) and computes the
fuelmass needed to meet the commanded AFR (AFR = airmass/fuelmass);
if the airmass is wrong, then the fuel mass will be wrong.

[WHYTRYZ06]

so, I just do the autove deal like it says in the tutorial, changing the b0101 table, set the b3647 table to what I want (command) the pcm to input for fuel and hopefully the b3647 table should match my wb02???

thats it right??? that simple??

[WHYTRYZ06]

one more question... once I get the autove and b3647 done and its set the way I want it, set to a specific AFR.

What happnes when I want to change the WOT to a different AFR.. Do I just change the last column b3647 table and leave the ve alone, or do I need to do autove all over again???

[5.7ute]

As long as the rest of your tune is correct you will not have to redo autoVE when you change B3647. I would still log AFR's at WOT though to see if you have any other problems.

[joecar]

one more question... once I get the autove and b3647 done and its set the way I want it, set to a specific AFR.

What happnes when I want to change the WOT to a different AFR.. Do I just change the last column b3647 table and leave the ve alone, or do I need to do autove all over again???Yes, once autove is done, leave the B0101 alone.

B3647 is "user input" (is not dialed in by autove).

B0101 is adjusted (dialed in) by the autove procedure.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Yes, once autove is done, leave the B0101 alone.

B3647 is "user input" (is not dialed in by autove).

B0101 is adjusted (dialed in) by the autove procedure.


so, what does autove do as far as WOT?? does it have any affect on WOT??

Its starting to make sense but not "full" sense...get what im saying???

[5.7ute]

Any cell that has had the AutoVE procedure done accurately with the correct IFR table etc should be accurate no matter what AFR you are commanding in B3647.
However if you have not done any WOT logging when doing AutoVE you could still have discrepencies between commanded & actual AFR. Also at WOT issues like fuel pressure fluctuations can occur which can cause lean readings.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Any cell that has had the AutoVE procedure done accurately with the correct IFR table etc should be accurate no matter what AFR you are commanding in B3647.
However if you have not done any WOT logging when doing AutoVE you could still have discrepencies between commanded & actual AFR. Also at WOT issues like fuel pressure fluctuations can occur which can cause lean readings.

so basicaly follow the autove tutorial, (im gonna be useing cos3 when i do this) then when im done with the autove, set b3647 the way I want it??? and b3647 should match my WBO2???

also should i use the IFR spread sheet posted in the sticky for my ls7/3 injectors??

am i on the right track???

[Highlander]

Set your desired WOT AFR by adjusting the last 3 columns in B3647.

Not running a blower/turbo, then set the AFR to something like 12.6-13.0.

This won't mess up your autove, your BEN's will still be the same.

AutoVE works by comparing the commanded AFR with the measured AFR; by changing B3647, you're changing the commanded AFR, and if your VE table is dialed in, then the measured AFR will follow the new commanded AFR.
you know.. this is not always true

[5.7ute]

so basicaly follow the autove tutorial, (im gonna be useing cos3 when i do this) then when im done with the autove, set b3647 the way I want it??? and b3647 should match my WBO2???

also should i use the IFR spread sheet posted in the sticky for my ls7/3 injectors??

am i on the right track???
I find it better to set B3647 how I want it DURING the AutoVE procedure except for any cell that will be set to 14.63. These I change to 14.5 for Auto VE I put back to 14.63 after.
If your injectors flow different than stock, yes use the spreadsheet & get the IFR table right.

[joecar]

Yes, do as 5.7ute said, do the IFR spreadsheet first.

During AutoVE, set B3647 to what you actually want (i.e. make sure it is sufficiently rich under load and peak torque).

If using COS3/COS5, do not set any cell to stoichiometric AFR as this will cause the COS to run in semi-open loop (i.e. it will use the short term trims to trim to stoichiometric)... check B3601 to see what your stoichiometric AFR is (it will be either 14.63 or 14.68)... do what 5.7ute said.

[joecar]

you know.. this is not always trueHey Chris, good to see you're still here, how've you been... :cheers:

You mean about transitions in B3647 won't necessarily be followed...?

Make any transitions in B3647 ramped up rather than stepped.

:wave:

[WHYTRYZ06]

I find it better to set B3647 how I want it DURING the AutoVE procedure except for any cell that will be set to 14.63. These I change to 14.5 for Auto VE I put back to 14.63 after.
If your injectors flow different than stock, yes use the spreadsheet & get the IFR table right.

how do you set b3647 during autove??? also what #'s are the injectors that come w/ an l76 intake... im assuming they are ls7/3 injectors...??

[joecar]

how do you set b3647 during autove???Before starting AutoVE, you set B3647 to the AFR that you would run in the 1/4 mile (say 12.7 at peak TQ rpm and ramping to 13.1 at peak HP rpm)... you don't change it during AutoVE.

You make sure that the columns in B3647 vary by smoothly ramping (not suddenly stepping).

Then you go ahead and do AutoVE (leaving B3647 exactly how you just made it).

[5.7ute]

how do you set b3647 during autove??? also what #'s are the injectors that come w/ an l76 intake... im assuming they are ls7/3 injectors...??
What I mean is to set your fuelling in B3647 to where you want it when finished. For example if in your final fuelling you want AFR's of 12.8 :1 in the 95kpa column do this when setting up the B3647 table for AutoVe. The tutorial is only a guide & not set in stone. Also as Joecar explains extremely well in a previous post when using a COS do not command stoich when performing Autove.
As for the injector size I do not know.

[joecar]

Exactly what 5.7ute said in post #21...

You start AutoVE with B3647 set to your desired AFR's...

When AutoVE is finished, the wideband measured AFR's will equal B3647 (within 1 or 2 %).

[WHYTRYZ06]

so,lemme get this straight...

1. set b3647 to the way I want it but (dont command 14.63 for stoich) w/ cos3 if i want b3647 to solely command fuel...

2. do autove, and hopefuly it will read equal to b3647.?

[5.7ute]

so,lemme get this straight...

1. set b3647 to the way I want it but (dont command 14.63 for stoich) w/ cos3 if i want b3647 to solely command fuel...

Correct. Commanding an AFR of 14.63:1 will cause STFT to occur in a custom OS.


2. do autove, and hopefuly it will read equal to b3647.?

Correct.

[WHYTRYZ06]

the tutorial says to setup B3647 to the way it says on there before autove, or should I setup the way i want it before autove...???

also what about A0008, set it all to 1.00...., or the way the tutorial says to do it??

[joecar]

Set B3647 the way you want, make sure you don't run lean at WOT (last 2 or 3 columns); and ramp, don't step.
Set A0008 the same as the tutorial.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Set B3647 the way you want, make sure you don't run lean at WOT (last 2 or 3 columns); and ramp, don't step.
Set A0008 the same as the tutorial.


joe, I've done autove about 4times now (trips around town) and part throttle is great the car runs smooth no surgeing or bucking BUT every time I go WOT it still goes LEAN IE. 17-18.1... cant seem to figure it out...

any tips???

[joecar]

On your next interation post the tune and some logs.

Which wideband do you have...?

[WHYTRYZ06]

On your next interation post the tune and some logs.

Which wideband do you have...?


i have an lc-1

how do i post my tune & log's??

[joecar]

In the Quick Reply box at the bottom of the webpage press Go Advanced, scroll down to Additional Options, press Manage Attachments, the attachments box pops up;

in the attachmen box, browse to each of your files (press Browse and then locate your files, click Ok or Open), then press Upload, close the attachments box, and finish typing in some text for your reply, then press Submit Reply.

[joecar]

AJ,

In the log file you emailed me late last night, I also noticed that TPS never goes to zero, even when car is idling...

Your LC-1 output doesn't look right, how is it connected up...?

If you do paste-multiply and take another drive, do the BEN's now look like 1.00 or do they look the same (~0.80 and not convergeing to 1.00)...?

Cheers,
Joe

[WHYTRYZ06]

AJ,

In the log file you emailed me late last night, I also noticed that TPS never goes to zero, even when car is idling...

Your LC-1 output doesn't look right, how is it connected up...?

If you do paste-multiply and take another drive, do the BEN's now look like 1.00 or do they look the same (~0.80 and not convergeing to 1.00)...?

Cheers,
Joe

joe,

sorry i didnt respond earlier..I was busy most of the day. I will be taking out the car today for some runs and ill let u know how it goes...

the lc-1 is connected the way the tutorial says to hook it up...

also im gonna do a cal and heater test's again...

ill be back on later on today...

[joecar]

No worries, I've been busy too, take your time.

With your wideband, we need to establish if it's reading the right value.

[WHYTRYZ06]

No worries, I've been busy too, take your time.

With your wideband, we need to establish if it's reading the right value.


ok,

the car runs great, did the cal and heater tests on the wideband, got the ben + or - 1.00, it took about 4 tries. but still cant get the wot fueling right... it still goes lean at wot... this is really pissin me off...

[WHYTRYZ06]

my last log & tune, help... joe,I tried something new... I used an 02 z06 stock ve and started from there...help

[joecar]

AJ,

Questions:

- you have an LC-1 and not an LM-1, right...?

- did you say [on the phone] that your LC-1's voltage:afr points were set like this :
(viewing them using "LM Programmer" software):
1V = 10 AFR
2V = 20 AFR

If so then that's a problem...

If you're using an LC-1 then the voltage:afr points should be like this:
0V = 7.35
5V = 22.35

[WHYTRYZ06]

AJ,

Questions:

- you have an LC-1 and not an LM-1, right...?

- did you say [on the phone] that your LC-1's voltage:afr points were set like this :
(viewing them using "LM Programmer" software):
1V = 10 AFR
2V = 20 AFR

If so then that's a problem...

If you're using an LC-1 then the voltage:afr points should be like this:
0V = 7.35
5V = 22.35

thats what I said on the phone
yes, LC-1 is what I have
u sure?? analog 1 or analog 2??? tab is set to that???

[WHYTRYZ06]

joe, i set the voltage points to your settings on tab 2 and now my afr gauge is reading in the 20+ afr reading....

but...

in the scan tool its reading close to 15.5:1 like how i have it set to...

whats causing the gauge to be erratic (sp) but the scan tool to show 15.5:1???

[joecar]

Ok, because of your gauge, set the LC-1 back to:
1V=10AFR
2V=20AFR.

I'll make you a new calc_pids.txt so that the scantool correctly converts the voltage to AFR...

The predefined LC-1 calc pid is: AFR = V * 3 + 7.35

The calc pid you need is: AFR = V * 10 (this will match your gauge).

Post your calc_pids.txt file(s), I'll edit them for you.

[jfpilla]

ok,

the car runs great, did the cal and heater tests on the wideband, got the ben + or - 1.00, it took about 4 tries. but still cant get the wot fueling right... it still goes lean at wot... this is really pissin me off...

If it goes lean at WOT you tried raising the MAF values at the lean frequencies?
Opps, or are you in SD?

[joecar]

AJ,

Check the voltage:afr points for the other LC-1 channel also...

Is this how your LC-1 channels are programmed:
- analog 1 (yellow wire) is 0V=7.35AFR, 5V=22.35AFR --> FlashScan V1
- analog 2 (brown wire) is 1V=10.0AFR, 2V=20.0AFR --> AFR Gauge

If so, we've been looking at the wrong channel (1V=10AFR, 2V=20AFR)...
which means you can use the predfined LC-1 calc pid,
we do not need to make a new one, you should be good to go.

From your log, the PT BENs seem to be converging to 1.00, but WOT cells need more hits (or a lower hidden cell count).

If it goes lean at WOT, increase the last 2 or 3 columns of B0101 by 5-10% and try again.

Put the trans in manual 1st or manual 2nd, and smoothly bring the throttle up to WOT (but if it goes lean then back off); let the trans cool a few minutes before repeating.

[joecar]

I edited my previous post (#41) to reflect what AJ and I said by phone.

AJ is reporting that PT is good.

[5.7ute]

Can you post up the logs so I can have a look joecar?

[joecar]

Log and tune files attached.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Here is the latest tune & last 2 logs... latest tune corasponds(sp?) w/AUTOVE-6.efi

That way you can see the difference between the 2 logs to see if the wideband is working correctly... I only drove maby 15min for each log then updated the tune w/the new ben factor..

I got part throttle and idle good ,ideling around 15.5:1 & part throttle roughly the same. it will never be perfect, the car has a big cam in it.. 254-262 duration..

Im gonna try autove a few more times to get it even better, and if wot still is lean, f ' it im gonna skew the 0-5 kpa cells in the IFR table to get my wot where I want it...

ill post more as i go...

if anyone see's anything in the tune I should look at, feel free to chime in and let me know....

I wanna say thanks to JOECAR for helping me w/ this over the phone.. also wanna thank DOC... This site is awesome...:cheers:

[5.7ute]

Have you checked your fuel pressure at WOT to ensure that isnt the problem? Also it might be worth logging injector duty cycle.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Have you checked your fuel pressure at WOT to ensure that isnt the problem? Also it might be worth logging injector duty cycle.


well the injectors are 40# from gm... I guess I could log em'.. I have not checked my wot fuel pressure... I guess i could do that... I know im not maxing out the 40# injector...

could i change the IFR table to make my idea work if everything checks out ok??

[WHYTRYZ06]

ok added inj duty cycle to my pid. gonna go try it later on

ill post back later and report w/ updated tune and log's...

[joecar]

Wideband output doesn't look right to me, but maybe it's just me.

[joecar]

Here's an example of what my LC-1 output looks like... see how it's not-so-wiggely...

You might try setting 1/3 or 1/6 filtering using the LM Programmer software.

This is what you want to arrive at: compare AFR with AFR_WB1... (or EQ with EQ_WB1)... and look at BEN (see RHS of chart)

I have my LC-1 programmed with:
0V = 11AFR
5V = 16AFR

which means my AFR calc pid is: AFR = V + 11.

At the cursor, my B3647 is commanding AFR 12.51.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Here's an example of what my LC-1 output looks like...

This is what you want to arrive at: compare AFR with AFR_WB1... (or EQ with EQ_WB1).


i set it like the way we discussed... also the pic comes up fuzzy when i click on it, could u send it to my e-mail???

I dont re-call seeing that lm programmer filter...

[joecar]

Push the Firefox/IE scrollbar all the way to the right...


http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/978/bensqw5.png

[joecar]

You can see I have transition lag in WB AFR... my B3647 is "stepped" in this case.

When B3647 rolls/ramps to the desired WOT AFR, those transitions come out looking curved like the roll in B3647 and there is a bit less lag.

[5.7ute]

could i change the IFR table to make my idea work if everything checks out ok??
You should not need to fudge the IFR table unless there is a problem elsewhere.

[joecar]

Have you got the LED connected in parallel with the pushbutton between the LC-1 calibration (black wire) and the LC-1 system ground (white wire)...?

What does the LED do...?
It is supposed to flash for 20-30 seconds on power on, then it should stay on steady... if it doesn't do that something is wrong.

[WHYTRYZ06]

ok guys latest tune & log..

Ok couple of questions...

What do to about....

1. B0104... HOW MUCH???
2. B0120... SET IT TO MAX VALUE (SINCE IM IN OLSD)???
3. B0109... YES OR NO???
4. A0014... WHAT TO SET IT AT???

I've noticed that w/B0109 set to NO the AFR varies w/ IAT inlet temps.. Higher=leaner / lower=richer

What do I need to do the the tables listed above to help w/ the flacuating(sp?) A/F ratio???

thanks...

so far so good.. just need to square away these tables and I think ill solve the miner flacuating(sp?) A/F ratio...

Note...

I have not done any WOT adjusting yet... thats why I have knock...

[joecar]

1. B0104: I calculate 836 cc based on your 408 ci.
2. B0120: you can set it to max, but in speed density it will be ignored.
3. B0109: you may have to experiment with this.
4. A0014: during AutoVE keep this at 1.00; later you can adjust this ... there's a thread on this in the forum.

Also, your A0009 and A0012 are out-of-range...
A0009: set the cells that have blue corners to 9.999,
A0012: set to 511,
and remember to save the file.

(the PCM doesn't like out-of-range values, even if they're not used yet).

[joecar]

From the log in post #56, your LC-1 is not working right...

Before you take your next log, enable the EXT.AD2 pid also
(I wan't to see both EXT.AD1 and EXT.AD2 in the log)

[your channel count will still stay at 24 since the EXT.ADn pids occupy zero channels].

[joecar]

I edited my two previous posts above...

[joecar]

Also, your MAP (kPa) doesn't look right... even with a big cam I would have expected it to be ~65kPa at idle, and it should increase as you open the throttle.

[joecar]

1. LC-1 voltage EXT.AD1 seems like it's not working.
2. MAP is not following expected pattern (even for a big cam).


http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/35/newautove6vt7.png

[WHYTRYZ06]

1. B0104: I calculate 836 cc based on your 408 ci.
2. B0120: you can set it to max, but in speed density it will be ignored.
3. B0109: you may have to experiment with this.
4. A0014: during AutoVE keep this at 1.00; later you can adjust this ... there's a thread on this in the forum.

Also, your A0009 and A0012 are out-of-range...
A0009: set the cells that have blue corners to 9.999,
A0012: set to 511,
and remember to save the file.

(the PCM doesn't like out-of-range values, even if they're not used yet).

Joe,

B0104 is set to 836cc now... if that was wrong in the tune to begin with(which it was)... would that kinda skew w/ the the VE table since it was reading the wrong cylinder volume??

[WHYTRYZ06]

1. LC-1 voltage EXT.AD1 seems like it's not working.
2. MAP is not following expected pattern (even for a big cam).


http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/35/newautove6vt7.png

Joe in the log I have in my computer, EXT.AD1 is working.. Thats weird...

[WHYTRYZ06]

Also, your MAP (kPa) doesn't look right... even with a big cam I would have expected it to be ~65kPa at idle, and it should increase as you open the throttle.

I called around, ans w/ a big cam like what I have its expected to idle at a high kpa... mine happens to idle @ 80-85kpa... 254-262 duration...

[WHYTRYZ06]

im gonna take more logs...and report back

[joecar]

Joe,

B0104 is set to 836cc now... if that was wrong in the tune to begin with(which it was)... would that kinda skew w/ the the VE table since it was reading the wrong cylinder volume??It does not affect the airmass calculation from the VE table (the VE table is self-contained "normalized" airmass)... I don't know where it is used.

[joecar]

1. LC-1 voltage EXT.AD1 seems like it's not working.
Joe in the log I have in my computer, EXT.AD1 is working.. Thats weird...In the log EXT.AD1 and AFR_LC11 don't look right, they don't look definite enough, does not make me comfortable.

[joecar]

2. MAP is not following expected pattern (even for a big cam).

I called around, ans w/ a big cam like what I have its expected to idle at a high kpa... mine happens to idle @ 80-85kpa... 254-262 duration...Ok, maybe idles at 80kPa, but when you open the throttle the MAP kPa should go up not down; when the throttle opens it presents less restriction so the kPa should go up... hopefully someone will chime in with some more insight.

Also I'm wondering if TPS minimum being 17% is ok or not (shouldn't it go lower?).

[joecar]

im gonna take more logs...and report backBy questioning those few things I'm just making sure everything is in order (so we don't chase our own tails)... ;)

[WHYTRYZ06]

By questioning those few things I'm just making sure everything is in order (so we don't chase our own tails)... ;)

yep.. I still havent done the rafig process yet, maby thats why the tp% is at 17%??? i did up the tables to keep it idleling..

[WHYTRYZ06]

joe im gonna try a few more things and ill report back later on today..

[hquick]

Joe...a quick question?
How did you get your logsto look like that...like more frames in the pic ...or something (small squiggly lines as opposed to larger lines)?

EDIT: never mind, I found it....the 1:1 button.

[5.7ute]

Just to make sure that there is not a ground problem you should set the other analog out in the lc1 to a flat voltage. Log both outputs & see if there is a discrepency between actual voltage & the logged value.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Just to make sure that there is not a ground problem you should set the other analog out in the lc1 to a flat voltage. Log both outputs & see if there is a discrepency between actual voltage & the logged value.


Ok noted, but the tune is done well bout 95%... ill post up soon...

[WHYTRYZ06]

Here Is The Latest Log & Tune... I Disabled Burst Kr After The Log, And My Tps Ve Is Building Up