GM to crack down on Aftermarket calibrated vehicles?

[DrkPhx]

I saw this on Corvetteforum. Has anyone heard about this yet or is it BS? According to this, even if you reflash back to stock, they can still detect if the ECM has been modified.

A GM bulletin will be distributed to Dealers shortly.

This post is for those who have 100% bone stock Corvettes and want clarity on the tuning issue.

GM's New Software:

GM is rolling out a new procedure that can identify when a non-GM calibration has been installed in a vehicle. The new process checks a log to see what calibrations have been added. If the calibration does not have an official GM part number it, it is instantly identified as a tune or other calibration not supported by GM. If the log contains a GM part number the process digs a little deeper to find a series of numbers buried in other modules. This confirms that the part number is not a mask for a non-GM calibration. If the calibration is found to be a NON-GM calibration, as from a tune, GM is advising dealers that the warranty repair on the powertrain will not be honored. The dealership will need to provide proof if a powertrain failure has occurred that the calibrations are GMs before any repair is performed.

Furthermore, since GM can not determine what the impact of a non-GM calibration effect will have on the entire powertrain. GM will void the remaining powertrain warranty. This means engine, trans, drive shafts and differential will no longer be covered. This process has been tested on different Corvettes and other GM vehicles including Diesel's. The process correctly identifies cars with non-GM calibrations.

This also addresses those that think re-flashing the ECU before taking it back to the dealer is not detectable…..it is.
Owners, if you have not installed a tune or engine modification, don’t do it if you value your warranty. The consequences are giving up the 5 yr 100,000 mile powertrain protection. If you have a tune already installed then be upfront if you encounter a problem.

NOTE: If anybody has had a true problem with a 100% bone stock car under normal driving conditions and needs further assistance feel free to PM me.


It goes back to the old saying; if you want to play you have to pay......or be willing to at some later date.

link: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1979769

[joecar]

It's true...

but I don't know that they can do this with the LS1/LS2 PCM's since these can't detect reflashes...

but the later ECM's have builtin mechanisms to detect reflashes.

[Garry]

Well, seeing what some "Tuners" program into the cars, this step is understandable ... and with the availability and affordability of the tuning tools, anybody can totally mess up their car ... why should such a person be still covered by waranty?

But then - on a stock car/motor, tuning of PCM parameters make only limited sense ... (OK, I gained 0.5 w/o any other modifications ...) So the message is: either go all the way, or stay stock ...

[97K15004WD]

Yep, already underway. Been discussed here several times already. Big topic on other sites as well.

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=7460

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=7461

[Chevy366]

Kind of like , "If they Outlaw tuning only Outlaws will have tunes" , print my wanted poster now then . :muahaha: :D

[dfe1]

As is usually, the case, there's a lot of knee-jerk reaction going on. As Joecar has pointed out, there are a number of PCMs/ECMs that don't store reflash data. In those controllers that do, the dealership tech has to be smart enough or care enough to do the necessary detective work. I'm sure GM is tired of replacing engines that were damaged/destroyed because of the handiwork of some of the tuning geniuses who are running around without adult supervision. On the other hand, there's something known as the Magnason-Moss act that makes it illegal for a manufacturer to refuse warranty service because of modifications that are unrelated to a particular failure.

I just think it's important for everyone concerned about warranty issues to keep things in perspective. It is true that many dealers do whatever they can to avoid honoring legitimate warranty claims, but it is equally true that new car warranties are designed to cover repair costs of problems caused by defects in materials or workmanship-- not those caused by owner stupidity.

[Donovan]

I hate to play the devils advocate here, but if you are loading an aftermarket program and making more power than stock and putting additional wear and tear on the drivetrain, shouldn't they deny the claim? On the other hand if you load an aftermarket tune to change the speedometer calibration because you changed the tire size, that should be a non issue.

On my truck I wrote off the powertrain warantee the day I started upping the ante with a lift pump and other power adders and higher hp tunes. It's just only reasonable that the cost of problems related to that becomes yours. You got to pay to play.

Ulitmately the handling of claims will be at the dealer and GMs disgression though so this does give them an avenue to deny claims even if they are legit. Hopefully this change doesn't harm owners who are making minor mods to their vehicles that are unrelated to the problems experienced.

[Chevy366]

The only thing that bothers me about this is if GM starts to send reports to the EPA and then the EPA gets involved (emission issues) .
Take your Auto in for service and have the EPA knocking at your door for altering emission related specs or worse ticketed .

At 50 , you have learned to accept that if you do something it is your fault and not whine to much about it , but you also know when you are getting screwed over and what to do about it .
And this sounds like we are fixing to get screwed over . :mad:

[RetroAus]

Just buy a second PCM....keep your original...
Just depends if BCM stores flash counts as well....

[roy]

Just buy a second PCM....keep your original...
Just depends if BCM stores flash counts as well....
Ditto

[JAY4SPEED]

Just buy a second PCM....keep your original...
Just depends if BCM stores flash counts as well....

Also, buy a bench harness along with the ECM. The BCM doesn't know whats going on if the ECM is being programmed on a bench and not in a car.

Jay

[ScarabEpic22]

Ive thought about this, and I can see how GM doesnt want to pay for tuners mistakes. I know there are tuners out there who dont know what they are doing, I can say I sure as heck dont for anything but my LL8 (for now, done a ton of reading and need a truck to play with so I can start testing an LSx motor) so I wont even try to tune them except maybe for shifting. Im 18 years old, but I can see how powerful a tuning tool such as this is and realize if someone who doesnt make small changes and monitor the results could easily destroy a 4+ thousand dollar engine. Even after reading and studying books/forums/etc I feel as if I have learned a ton but have barely scratched the surface.

I would buy another PCM/ECM/TCM and swap it out when going in for warranty, but at the same time this only works if you have minor mods (CAI, exhaust, etc). Heads/cam/FI wouldnt run with the stock controller, and if they did the dealer would definitely know something was not stock. Or just know the second you dive into these internal mods you can kiss the warranty goodbye. Ive been without a warrenty for 2+ years now, started tuning right after it expired (EFILive didnt support me til then).

So be careful everyone and realize that tuning does void the warranty anyway, this is just GM's way of trying to not charge us more because they are fixing other people's mistakes.:cheers:

[Chalky]

Also, buy a bench harness along with the ECM. The BCM doesn't know whats going on if the ECM is being programmed on a bench and not in a car.

Jay

Is this doable? Tell me more.

[joecar]

In addition to what Erik said, the EPA is getting on the OEM's to make their ECM's "unhackable"...
the ECM is considered emissions equipment, and the EPA prohibits tampering;
it's just a matter of time (if not already) before this will be strictly enforced with newer ECM's;
the side effect of this is that the OEM can use these efforts to their advantage.

[97K15004WD]

Is this doable? Tell me more.


Probably not. In most cases, the BCM controls the VATS or vehicle shut down function. It must talk to the PCM and get "agreement" that it is indeed the same PCM as the original, or they won't talk and the BCM will shut down the vehicle. Chrysler does this on many of their vehicles; if you replace the PCM or the BCM, you must take the vehicle to the dealer so they can make the PCM and the BCM "talk" so the vehicle will operate properly.

That's why there has been no real tuning software for the Chrysler's until just very recently, along with the fact they guard their info like it's a military secret. Also, there data stream for the last few years is raw data (that was Daimler's doing), no header PID's so it's hard to figure out what they are doing.....

[zapp168]

LOL anybody here read "1984"? It is twenty years late, but "big brother" is definitely watching

[Garry]

Well, thanks to 9/11 and the ignorance of great parts of the "free" world's inhabitants, politics have managed to surpass even the pessimists' expectations ... just these days news have come out where European union politicians are aiming to store and evaluate _any_ "digital information" that is left behind by anybody ... so the old saying "Orwell was an optimist" seems to be more than right ... :(
I wonder if enough people will rise against these tendencies in time ... :(

[ringram]

Im hoping my 440 cube LS2 will rise against many tendencies :)

[Garry]

440 LS2? Wow ...

[ZL1Killa]

so on this BCM and PCM talking deal... does anyone know if an 06 malibu has that deal? (chevrolet thing or not?) B/C I was just thinking about buying a new PCM just in case ;)

[emarkay]

Who wants a new car anyway? :)

Mod the iron, recycle the plastic!

[GMPX]

Sometimes older cars are nicer to look at than actually drive everyday. And look at my sig, I am on both sides!

[CWR]

It's true...

but I don't know that they can do this with the LS1/LS2 PCM's since these can't detect reflashes...

but the later ECM's have builtin mechanisms to detect reflashes.


I didnt read this before I started the other thread. They can detect on any vehicle now. and its a bumper to bumper warranty void. like I said on the other thread, just thought I would let others know.

[Chalky]

Has something changed recently? Last I knew, GM could NOT detect a reflash of the E38 if the cal was returned to stock.

[CWR]

Has something changed recently? Last I knew, GM could NOT detect a reflash of the E38 if the cal was returned to stock.

I'm going to double check. I know we can tell even if it is set to stock if the pcm was flashed with ls edit. I have programed another techs truck, I'm going to change it back to stock and double check with the tech 2. I've already had a guy do a service update and put his truck back to stock twice. I'll keep you updated on my progress. It will be monday though because we are going to the track today.

[GTPprix]

I didnt read this before I started the other thread. They can detect on any vehicle now. and its a bumper to bumper warranty void. like I said on the other thread, just thought I would let others know.

Good lord where do people get this crap? bumper to bumper void? Do have ANY idea how illegal that would be? It's misinformation like this that needs to stop, seriously between that and what people THINK certain ECM's store and go posting about it is whats really driving people nuts LOL

[gmtech16450yz]

Ok, thought I’d chime in with a little info that might help…
First off I believe the “*” or asterisk that was mentioned is what comes up in TIS when the calibration “is not recognized by this release of TIS”. This does not necessarily mean it’s a not-GM calibration, it just means TIS does not recognize it. I’ve seen plenty of factory calibrations that TIS does not recognize or have in the database. I just did an exchange cluster yesterday that had two unrecognized calibrations with *’s next to the numbers. This cluster came straight from the factory authorized repair facility. *’s next to the calibration number does NOT necessarily mean it’s a non-GM calibration.
The TSB I think people keep referring to is 08-06-04-033. It tells you how to check for non-GM calibrations. It does NOT say anything about voiding the bumper-to-bumper warranty. Here’s what it says…
If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different from the calibrations that these components were validated to. Repairs to engine, transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.


There is a newer bulletin, number PIP4558 (preliminary info, not a TSB) that refers to piston damage in ’07 and ’08 trucks and SUV’s with gas V8’s. Here’s what it says…
If a hole is found, perform the following steps:

1. Inspect the vehicle for aftermarket components, such as an exhaust or air intake system.
2. Document the ECM calibration numbers and related CVNs as outlined in the latest version of 08-06-04-033.
3. Call Brand Quality Manager, (deleted name and number) to review further direction. He may request photos of the damage or ask you to mail the damaged components to him for inspection.

Here’s my personal opinion on the piston damage PI in particular. I believe there are two things going on that may end up in piston damage.
First is most definitely aftermarket tuning. I am thrilled that we have these tools to manipulate the powertrain systems in these vehicles, but in the wrong hands these tools can do a lot of damage. You REALLY need to know what you’re doing if you’re going to try to change things like fuel and spark. I know there are people out there with these tuning tools that ARE causing damage with their settings and GM should not have to pay for that damage. There are warnings about modifying factory calibrations in both of the major tuning programs that should be taken seriously. I’m glad we have the tools, but any tool can do damage if used improperly.
Second possibility I would put directly on GM. I’ve scanned plenty of ‘07 and ’08 Gen 4 V8’s and I’ve noticed one thing, customers almost always run cheap gas and it shows in TONS of knock retard under all driving conditions. I think GM made a mistake telling people that all these engines are fine to run on 87 octane gas. Most of the V8’s have around 10.5 compression ratio and some V6’s are into the 11’s. I know fuel and timing control can allow that kind of compression, but if it can’t control detonation things can go bad really quickly. I believe GM should have put a “Premium Fuel Recommended” tag on all these motors. I tell every customer that asks, or people I know that have late model GM vehicles to run premium fuel always. In the 6.2 especially, you can hear them ping, which is telling me factory calibrations are not controlling timing well enough to handle the low octane fuel people are using.
I don’t know if the piston damage that GM is seeing is from cheap gas (especially in California), or aftermarket tuning. From the looks of the pictures in the PI, I’m thinking it’s more likely aftermarket tuning. (Pretty extreme damage.) Be careful with those tunes!

(Tried to post the pics from the PI directly from the GM site, didn't think it would work! I'll put them on my site and put a link to them later if I get a chance.)

[GAMEOVER]

Good read...

[Chevy366]

Hmmm , have noticed that higher KR quit a lot on the newer ones , confirms my suspensions .
They run tons better with lower timing in some areas .

[Chuck CoW]

Good lord where do people get this crap? bumper to bumper void? Do have ANY idea how illegal that would be? It's misinformation like this that needs to stop, seriously between that and what people THINK certain ECM's store and go posting about it is whats really driving people nuts LOL


I agree with GTP. I for one am kinda sick of the "old womens gossip club" perpetuating nonsense and misinformation about topics for which persons have ABSOLUTELY NO PERSONAL FIRST HAND INFORMATION ABOUT being posted publicly.

In other words....If you do not absolutely have credible first hand knowledge on said topic...PLEASE refrain from making public statements about such topics.

We all saw the "gm locks computers" and the "GM can tell if you re-flash your corvette after you put it back to stock" rumors on the Corvette Forum and elsewhere.

You can't imaging how often I have to waste my time explaining to potential customers that these rumors are only "RUMORS" and that it's not true despite the fact that they "heard it on the forum so it must be true".:bad:

PLEASE people...a good rule to live your life by....

DON'T OPEN YOUR MOUTH if you're not 100% sure what you are saying is 100% true.

100% of us would appreciate it.
Chuck CoW

[joecar]

The thing to do is to have a spare ECM and to tune using it, keeping the original in a safe place...
and install the original when you go for warranty work.

the main reasons for this are, when you go to the GM dealer (with original ECM installed):
- you don't care if GM overwrite the ECM's flash,
- you don't care if GM lock the ECM (inadvertantly or not),
- you don't care if GM replace the ECM.

The side benefit is that they could never blame the ECM for voiding warranty purposes.

It is wise to have 2 ECM's.

Of course this may not always be practical.

[GMPX]

It's like these people that mod their Xbox360's get banned from XboxLive and complain, well, even my Grandma knows that if you mod your Xbox360 you will get banned next time you go on-line, it's the price you pay.

I view the tuning of your car/truck the same, unfortunately I don't think GM are going to play the game nicely from now on even though there should be some understanding behind why sometimes vehicles need to be retuned.
I recently heard of a truck getting a cracked radiator refused warranty because it had a aftermarket tune of some sort in it, that is plain dumb!

These days, how many people come in to a workshop or buy a tuning product to get better MPG or tuned for different conditions that the factory tune does not suit? A large majority I would say. So like the discussion above, GM run way too much timing for 87 Octane, so isn't it your right to be able to get 'your' ECM de-tuned to run the cheaper gas? I would say yes, in fact you might even save GM a warranty claim by doing so.
The other side of the coin is people who do damage parts due to going a little too far with the tune, GM shouldn't have to pay for that, though, I guess they have in the past, that is changing, which is why the CVN is their last hope to catching people out.

What I am about to write will really annoy some of our customers, but please don't Email me complaining, post in here if you must vent, though it will not change our decision, but it will certainly get an interesting discussion happening.

We added in a CVN correction function to EFILive late last year, this has since been removed for a variety of reasons, the main one being (from our release notes) "Due to industry perception that EFILive’s software may be used to fraudulently change a controller’s CVNs, we have removed the CVN calculator."
I think I will just say that allowing people to alter CVN's to what ever they wanted was going to end up getting nasty somewhere down the line. We didn't just remove it for the sake of it, please understand that. There was a number of people involved in this decision.

Cheers,
Ross

[Chalky]

I had no idea you had pulled the CVN correction from EFILive. Regardless, for me, I could not justify the cost of the feature. I am sorry to see the feature removed.

[ScarabEpic22]

I had no idea you had pulled the CVN correction from EFILive. Regardless, for me, I could not justify the cost of the feature. I am sorry to see the feature removed.

Ditto, the likelihood of me ever being able to tune enough rides to warrant a stream is doubtful but Im sorry to see any feature that has been worked on be removed. But if it was I know there must be a very good reason it was, and all of us want EFILive around for many years to come.:rockon:

[joecar]

GM is running on borrowed money/time, they will diligently seek to minimize losses (strongly attempt to refute warranty claims) and maximize gains (aggressively sue anyone they can)... it is best to give them no reason to do either.

[Chalky]

GM is running on borrowed money/time, they will diligently seek to minimize losses (strongly attempt to refute warranty claims) and maximize gains (aggressively sue anyone they can)... it is best to give them no reason to do either.

Could not agree more. They literally have nothing to lose.

On the other hand, I still hope and beleive someone will find a way to alter CVNs. To many talented people just waiting for someone like GM to say "You Can't Do that". ( Is this wishful thinking :) )

[Chalky]

It's like these people that mod their Xbox360's get banned from XboxLive and complain, well, even my Grandma knows that if you mod your Xbox360 you will get banned next time you go on-line, it's the price you pay.

I view the tuning of your car/truck the same, unfortunately I don't think GM are going to play the game nicely from now on even though there should be some understanding behind why sometimes vehicles need to be retuned.
I recently heard of a truck getting a cracked radiator refused warranty because it had a aftermarket tune of some sort in it, that is plain dumb!

These days, how many people come in to a workshop or buy a tuning product to get better MPG or tuned for different conditions that the factory tune does not suit? A large majority I would say. So like the discussion above, GM run way too much timing for 87 Octane, so isn't it your right to be able to get 'your' ECM de-tuned to run the cheaper gas? I would say yes, in fact you might even save GM a warranty claim by doing so.
The other side of the coin is people who do damage parts due to going a little too far with the tune, GM shouldn't have to pay for that, though, I guess they have in the past, that is changing, which is why the CVN is their last hope to catching people out.

What I am about to write will really annoy some of our customers, but please don't Email me complaining, post in here if you must vent, though it will not change our decision, but it will certainly get an interesting discussion happening.

We added in a CVN correction function to EFILive late last year, this has since been removed for a variety of reasons, the main one being (from our release notes) "Due to industry perception that EFILive’s software may be used to fraudulently change a controller’s CVNs, we have removed the CVN calculator."
I think I will just say that allowing people to alter CVN's to what ever they wanted was going to end up getting nasty somewhere down the line. We didn't just remove it for the sake of it, please understand that. There was a number of people involved in this decision.

Cheers,
Ross

While I would love to know the specific reasons for withdrawing this feature as this is news to me, I was looking at the EFI website and it still makes reference to the CVN resetting feature. https://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118&Itemid=127

Might be something that needs to be cleaned up! :)

I will hazard a guess about possible culprits that forced EFILive to make these changes:

CA. CARB
EPA
HPT

I still think EFIlive is a great company and really appreciate what you tried to do. Cheers!

[GMPX]

On the other hand, I still hope and believe someone will find a way to alter CVNs. To many talented people just waiting for someone like GM to say "You Can't Do that". ( Is this wishful thinking :) )I think here is still at least two companies out there doing it on their mail order tunes (not using EFILive), it's not 'that' hard. But unfortunately when one kid in the sandpit starts crying out loud it tends to attract the attention of all the mums :yucky:


While I would love to know the specific reasons for withdrawing this feature as this is news to me, I was looking at the EFI website and it still makes reference to the CVN resetting feature. https://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118&Itemid=127 Doh!, best fix that up today.
One thing worth noting, I have said this for some time, the E38 & E67 are more than capable of logging reflash history, currently there appears to be no way to retrieve this data with TechII, but, I would not be surprised if this feature is turned on at some point.

Cheers,
Ross

[Chuck CoW]

I think here is still at least two companies out there doing it on their mail order tunes (not using EFILive), it's not 'that' hard. But unfortunately when one kid in the sandpit starts crying out loud it tends to attract the attention of all the mums :yucky:

Doh!, best fix that up today.
One thing worth noting, I have said this for some time, the E38 & E67 are more than capable of logging reflash history, currently there appears to be no way to retrieve this data with TechII, but, I would not be surprised if this feature is turned on at some point.

Cheers,
Ross

So, since you took away the CVN feature.....does this mean you're replacing it with the LS2/3/7/9 ETC CONTROL TABLES?????:angel_innocent:

Chuck CoW

[hymey]

So, since you took away the CVN feature.....does this mean you're replacing it with the LS2/3/7/9 ETC CONTROL TABLES?????:angel_innocent:

Chuck CoW

That would be very nice....When's it happening Ross?

[Chalky]

I think here is still at least two companies out there doing it on their mail order tunes (not using EFILive), it's not 'that' hard. But unfortunately when one kid in the sandpit starts crying out loud it tends to attract the attention of all the mums :yucky:


Cheers,
Ross

Better yet, their is a gentleman on this forum that offers this service. I believe he may have been one of the first to do so! I assume he is using EFILive. :)

[CalEditor]

Ok, thought I’d chime in with a little info that might help…
First off I believe the “*” or asterisk that was mentioned is what comes up in TIS when the calibration “is not recognized by this release of TIS”. This does not necessarily mean it’s a not-GM calibration, it just means TIS does not recognize it. I’ve seen plenty of factory calibrations that TIS does not recognize or have in the database. I just did an exchange cluster yesterday that had two unrecognized calibrations with *’s next to the numbers. This cluster came straight from the factory authorized repair facility. *’s next to the calibration number does NOT necessarily mean it’s a non-GM calibration.
The TSB I think people keep referring to is 08-06-04-033. It tells you how to check for non-GM calibrations. It does NOT say anything about voiding the bumper-to-bumper warranty. Here’s what it says…
If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different from the calibrations that these components were validated to. Repairs to engine, transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.


There is a newer bulletin, number PIP4558 (preliminary info, not a TSB) that refers to piston damage in ’07 and ’08 trucks and SUV’s with gas V8’s. Here’s what it says…
If a hole is found, perform the following steps:

1. Inspect the vehicle for aftermarket components, such as an exhaust or air intake system.
2. Document the ECM calibration numbers and related CVNs as outlined in the latest version of 08-06-04-033.
3. Call Brand Quality Manager, (deleted name and number) to review further direction. He may request photos of the damage or ask you to mail the damaged components to him for inspection.

Here’s my personal opinion on the piston damage PI in particular. I believe there are two things going on that may end up in piston damage.
First is most definitely aftermarket tuning. I am thrilled that we have these tools to manipulate the powertrain systems in these vehicles, but in the wrong hands these tools can do a lot of damage. You REALLY need to know what you’re doing if you’re going to try to change things like fuel and spark. I know there are people out there with these tuning tools that ARE causing damage with their settings and GM should not have to pay for that damage. There are warnings about modifying factory calibrations in both of the major tuning programs that should be taken seriously. I’m glad we have the tools, but any tool can do damage if used improperly.
Second possibility I would put directly on GM. I’ve scanned plenty of ‘07 and ’08 Gen 4 V8’s and I’ve noticed one thing, customers almost always run cheap gas and it shows in TONS of knock retard under all driving conditions. I think GM made a mistake telling people that all these engines are fine to run on 87 octane gas. Most of the V8’s have around 10.5 compression ratio and some V6’s are into the 11’s. I know fuel and timing control can allow that kind of compression, but if it can’t control detonation things can go bad really quickly. I believe GM should have put a “Premium Fuel Recommended” tag on all these motors. I tell every customer that asks, or people I know that have late model GM vehicles to run premium fuel always. In the 6.2 especially, you can hear them ping, which is telling me factory calibrations are not controlling timing well enough to handle the low octane fuel people are using.
I don’t know if the piston damage that GM is seeing is from cheap gas (especially in California), or aftermarket tuning. From the looks of the pictures in the PI, I’m thinking it’s more likely aftermarket tuning. (Pretty extreme damage.) Be careful with those tunes!

(Tried to post the pics from the PI directly from the GM site, didn't think it would work! I'll put them on my site and put a link to them later if I get a chance.)

GMTech go do your Emerging Issues for last month (1/09) and then review your post!
I am not saying your info in wrong.




I agree with GTP. I for one am kinda sick of the "old womens gossip club" perpetuating nonsense and misinformation about topics for which persons have ABSOLUTELY NO PERSONAL FIRST HAND INFORMATION ABOUT being posted publicly.

In other words....If you do not absolutely have credible first hand knowledge on said topic...PLEASE refrain from making public statements about such topics.

We all saw the "gm locks computers" and the "GM can tell if you re-flash your corvette after you put it back to stock" rumors on the Corvette Forum and elsewhere.

You can't imaging how often I have to waste my time explaining to potential customers that these rumors are only "RUMORS" and that it's not true despite the fact that they "heard it on the forum so it must be true".:bad:

PLEASE people...a good rule to live your life by....

DON'T OPEN YOUR MOUTH if you're not 100% sure what you are saying is 100% true.

100% of us would appreciate it.
Chuck CoW

I know what was said in the Emerging Issues telecast!

I know what is going to happen when we use the MDI to do diagnostics's
The MDI is going to check for software updates in models. Can you see how that will effect your warranty? If it auto checks for updates it will check the CVN's correct?

[Chalky]

Cal Editor:

Why not just post up the information yourself if the data posted by GMTech, or anyone else for that matter, is incorrect. Telling someone their information is wrong and not providing correct data serves no purpose but to add to the frustration.

[CalEditor]

Cal Editor:

Why not just post up the information yourself if the data posted by GMTech, or anyone else for that matter, is incorrect. Telling someone their information is wrong and not providing correct data serves no purpose but to add to the frustration.

From this point on if you are caught with an aftermarket calibration in your car the PowerTrain Warranty will be VOIDED!

In the past GM would not cover a repair caused by an aftermarket calibration or even a repair if it had an aftermarket cal in the PCM/ECM, but that was it.
Example: You broke your trans by messing with the Torque Management you paid for it not GM.
Example #2: If you had an aftermarket calibration in the vehicle that had no effect on the trans and your Sun Shell broke. They might not cover it.

Now You get caught with an aftermarket calibration in the PCM/ECM ever for any reason (recall, check engine light on, Coolant leak, flat tire) your PowerTrain Warranty is done! :sly:

[CalEditor]

Cal Editor:

Why not just post up the information yourself if the data posted by GMTech, or anyone else for that matter, is incorrect. Telling someone their information is wrong and not providing correct data serves no purpose but to add to the frustration.

what is your location? I am in the Milwaukee area.

[Chalky]

Mt. Pleasant.

[gmtech16450yz]

I've watched the Emerging Issues Seminar, what exactly did I say that was incorrect?

[CalEditor]

I've watched the Emerging Issues Seminar, what exactly did I say that was incorrect?

Like I said it wasn't incorrect just the last emerging issuse stated that they will void all the PowerTrain warranty if a customer is caught with a aftermarket cal.

If you want to play just buy another PCM. I know of a GM scrapping center that would love to sell ever PCM they have. :grin:

I buy lots of 10 same service number PCM's at a time.

[CalEditor]

One thing I want you all to think about.

What is a Tune and or Aftermarket Cal?

Being from the GM dealer side I look at it as a BIG negative when I have an issue. I think it is something I can blame.




I had to do 40 (Brand new 2008's) GM's this past spring, standing in the snow...nice...it was almost worth getting sick over.
,

Think about setting a fleet of Government vehicles so the max speed to 75mph or even 65 mph for FUEL ECONOMY!
Would that be a Tune?

What about a fleet of rental cars?
Do they have the right to do that?
would it or should it Void the warranty or even the EPA Certification?

[GMPX]

I wonder if any of the other auto makers in the US are adopting this policy. I know here in Australia, FORD can check the number of reflashes a PCM has had, if they have 'officially' release 3 updates and the car has had 10 flashes then powertrain warranty is voided.

Andrew had an interesting suggestion, when you buy a new car you can get a discount by agreeing not to have a powertrain warranty.

Cheers,
Ross

[hymey]

The other problem most face is that the engine is modified, ie camshaft and heads in this scenario who have no chance getting warranty anyway.

Even if it is stock and they cant tell its been flashed(ie change to a spare pcm) they like to blame things on abuse of powertrain. The way I see it(and learnt the hard way) the day warranty ends is the day you drive it off the showroom floor.

My car spun a big end at 8000kms. It had a cam fitted. I rebuilt the engine, pistons,rings and heads were perfect all reused. No detonation marks, nice and safe, However no 1 big end was buggered. No lack of oil pressure on the logs. Perfect seal of o-ring pick up(the oil pump was never removed) and I heard of many LS2 big ends failing on the trailblazer forum and quite a few Aus delivered engines that had never even been tuned nor had any aftermarket exhaust system for that matter. You play you pay. Luckily only cost me 1500 dollars to fix as I did it all myself and it is much better job then the factory could do.

Factory ford pcm flashing has brought up a stir of late with capa flash tune etc. I have never used it nor have I used HPT on Fords, but the local tuner flashed one yesterday and it took 12 minutes. So in this case I would piggyback a Haltech to run fuel and spark and hide it in the car let the factory pcm do the rest and turn off whatever dtcs are showing.

cheers

[Chalky]

Himey:

What is Haltech and how does it work? You can piggy back and not leave any trace or trail then?

[hymey]

It is an aftermarket engine management computer built in Australia. I prefer them over the Motec and Autronic and much cheaper. I have seen them done this way. The Haltech controls injectors and spark the factory computer does the rest. Ross says you can flash the Ford pcm 10 times before they can detect a flash. So it is just a matter of turning dtc's off as when u disconnect 02s/injectors etc it will show up on the scan tool and the Ford mechanic will go WTF! Simply a matter of going for a drive then going though all MILs and turn off the ones that arent required so when it goes in for a service the tech wont see the dts's. The aftermarket computers do not have as much resolution as factory computers in some cases however if I owned a ford i would consider it as it takes 12 minutes to flash. The haltech can also control boost adjustment with no need for electronic boost control.

[CalEditor]

I would like to see that Video someone! :sly:

[ringram]

Could not agree more. They literally have nothing to lose.

On the other hand, I still hope and beleive someone will find a way to alter CVNs. To many talented people just waiting for someone like GM to say "You Can't Do that". ( Is this wishful thinking :) )

Sorry, did someone just say .cax file? :)

[Chalky]

Sorry, did someone just say .cax file? :)

Huh? Got my attention Tell me everything! Inquiring minds , well you know the rest!

[GMPX]

Sorry folks, it would not be possible to create the maths required in the .cax files.

Cheers,
Ross

[Chalky]

Sorry folks, it would not be possible to create the maths required in the .cax files.

Cheers,
Ross

Ross:

This is not the time to be humble! :)

[GMPX]

Just telling it like it is. The .cax files are only capable of pointing to an address in the flash and then defining what that data represents. The CVN requires a mathematical formula to calculate a number, the .cax format has no provision for using formulas.

Cheers,
Ross

[Chalky]

I would like to see that Video someone! :sly:

What video?

[pharmd]

Just face it, most all of us that are spending money buying tuning software, cams, heads, blowers, nitrous...we know GM shouldn't be paying for a new motor if we blow it up (at least I hope we can agree on that). To me its just an excuse to build a forged stroker anyway. Now, I don't hope I blow the thing, but if it does, I'm not gonna go cry and whine to GM, I'm gonna call my local machine shop and get to work. My problem is them trying to say my power seat broke because I accelerated too hard. Or my AC isn't working because I re-flashed my computer. I know that if I am racing my car at a track using slicks, the tranny, drive shaft, CV joints, rear end etc etc is exposed to extreme conditions, and it is probably unreasonable for GM to cover my parts. In the spirit of competitiveness I'd like to get around this as much as anyone, but if we can't, then...

If your gonna play, be prepared to pay.

[joecar]

pharmd, welcome to the forum...:cheers:

[CalEditor]

This has really come to light with the Duramax.
People installing a program from a programmer or a piggyback device and damaging an engine. Then they would have an issue (piston) and the cost of repair may have been well over $10k. :doh2: They are still paying for the ruck and another $10k is really going to hurt. GM was letting stuff slide to a point to keep Customer Satisfaction up. They are just closing up a hole now.

[mistermike]

Good lord where do people get this crap? bumper to bumper void? Do have ANY idea how illegal that would be? It's misinformation like this that needs to stop, seriously between that and what people THINK certain ECM's store and go posting about it is whats really driving people nuts LOL

Damn, I was just putting the finishing touches on my new foil hat.

[DrkPhx]

I was wondering if an aftermarket cal can be traced through an active Onstar system?
I know it can connect the ECM/TCM/BCM for basic system diagnostics (including Stabiltrak). See below information from the Onstar website.

If you are an active OnStar subscriber enrolled in OnStar Vehicle Diagnostics, you will receive regular email updates on the condition of five of your vehicle's key operating systems:
Engine and/or Transmission System
Emissions System
Air Bag System
Antilock Brake System
OnStar System


These reports are automatically generated every 30 days, so you can feel more confident that your car is ready for the road. Key diagnostic data is sent directly to OnStar while you drive, with no effort on your part. Once OnStar receives the information, we send you a simple email report on the status of these vehicle systems. The checkups are scheduled to take place at a predetermined date and time each month. However, if no one drives your vehicle on that date, the call will take place the next time your engine is turned on.

[L31Sleeper]

Take a bone stock Pontiac G8 or Holden HSV or Vauxhall VXR8 and go out and DRIFT it and see
what gets covered under warranty ???