Northstar info

[GMPX]

Hi All,

Just wondering, what sort of crank / cam signals do the RWD Northstar engines have (pre 2007 E67 versions)? I know the earlier ones had twin crank sensors, but I would be certain this has changed on the E67 based ones.
Retrofitting those earlier ones that have the stupid Siemens PCM would be an interesting project, especially when the Shelby 4.0L Northstar uses an LS1 PCM :shock: (See this Ebay Motors Item number: 230237506492)
Also, anyone know how well a 4L60E might bolt up to one?

Thanks,
Ross

[MICK]

I have the same thoughts on these engines. Interesting...:)

There has been a little talk of running early model Northstar's on a 0411 pcm of late.

But a E67 sounds like fun to.

You don't happen to have a 0411 pcm tune file for a Northstar do you Ross?

I think you might find the 4L60E will bolt up well, I would be very surprised if it was a no go.

Mick

[N0DIH]

The N* IIRC has the V6/FWD trans bolt pattern. So you would need a S10 or other narrow trans housing.

But the nice thing is after 95 or so, all the 4L60E's had removable bells....

I know I personally have thought of a 0411 swap in them, but they have so much headgasket issues, and so darn pricey to fix, i would rather toss in an 0411 PCM and a LS4......

The issue really is running the engine is easy, but running the FDC (Fuel Data Center) and other high tech electronics is unknown territory.....

[Wasted Income]

Now I wonder if I could retrofit an 0411 to a Buick Grand National.....been wanting to do that for awhile.

[N0DIH]

I would think that wouldn't be too hard, the catch, the crank/cam sensor res.

[GMPX]

You don't happen to have a 0411 pcm tune file for a Northstar do you Ross?

Yes, but it's quite different to the LS1, looks like custom Shelby. Interestingly though they must have run a 2bar OS on those maybe? And for the life of me I have never been able to find out what crank pattern they had!


The N* IIRC has the V6/FWD trans bolt pattern. So you would need a S10 or other narrow trans housing.

I just recall on Wiki there is something that says the RWD versions of the N* (I like that!) was modified greatly for RWD. From that I assume they were modified to bolt right up to a RWD trans.

Cheers,
Ross

[Wasted Income]

I would think that wouldn't be too hard, the catch, the crank/cam sensor res.

Is that something that can be modifed in the code? As in something that we don't have access to but could be made available??

[joecar]

I would think that wouldn't be too hard, the catch, the crank/cam sensor res.You could fab up a crank pulley with the correct reluctor wheel and run the CKP sensor from there.

I don't know what the N* cam reluctor/tone wheel looks like, I bet it's different...
could possibly add the correct tone wheel to one of the cam sprockets.

[MICK]

The winning bid on that engine was $1150....LOL

I think the crank and cam are not that hard on the early models.

[CalEditor]

Hi All,

Just wondering, what sort of crank / cam signals do the RWD Northstar engines have (pre 2007 E67 versions)? I know the earlier ones had twin crank sensors, but I would be certain this has changed on the E67 based ones.
Retrofitting those earlier ones that have the stupid Siemens PCM would be an interesting project, especially when the Shelby 4.0L Northstar uses an LS1 PCM :shock: (See this Ebay Motors Item number: 230237506492)
Also, anyone know how well a 4L60E might bolt up to one?

Thanks,
Ross

I have everything to make this run.

I have sooooooo much info on the Northstar.

I have an LS1 PCM running my Northstar currently!

[CalEditor]

I have everything to make this run.

I have sooooooo much info on the Northstar.

I have an LS1 PCM running my Northstar currently!

Electronic Ignition (EI) System Description

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Ignition%20systems/EI.gif


The Ignition Control System for this Powertrain controls fuel combustion by providing a spark to ignite the compressed air/fuel mixture in each cylinder at the correct time. The ignition control system has several advantages over a mechanical distributor ignition system.


No moving parts to wear out.

No mechanical load on the engine.

Elimination of mechanical timing adjustments.

Located for easier service and improved reliability.

Improved high engine speed performance.


The Ignition Control System consists of the following components:


Two crankshaft position sensors (A and B).

Crankshaft reluctor ring.

Camshaft position sensor.

Ignition control module.

4 separate ignition coils.

Eight spark plug wires and conduit.

Eight spark plugs.

Knock sensor.

Powertrain Control Module (PCM).



System Operation
The Ignition Control System does not use a conventional distributor or a single ignition coil. In this ignition system, both ends of each of the four ignition coils are connected to a spark plug. Each coil is connected with spark plugs on companion cylinders, i.e., on top dead center at the same time (1-4, 2-5, 6-7, and 3-8). One cylinder is on its compression stroke when the other one is on its exhaust stroke.

When the coil discharges, both plugs fire at the same time by using the engine block to complete the electrical circuit. The cylinder on the compression stroke is called the event cylinder and the one on the exhaust stroke is the waste cylinder. The two cylinders share the energy available from the ignition coil to fire both spark plugs. This method of ignition is called waste spark ignition.

Since the polarity of the ignition coil primary and secondary windings does not change, one spark plug always fires with a forward current (center electrode to ground electrode) and its companion plug fires with a reverse current (ground electrode to center electrode). This is different from a conventional distributor ignition system that fires all the plugs with the same forward current flow.

It is possible for one spark plug to fire even though a plug wire from the same coil may be disconnected from its companion spark plug. The disconnected plug wire acts as one plate of a capacitor and the engine block acts as the other plate. These two capacitor plates are charged as a spark first jumps across the gap of the connected spark plug. The plates are then discharged as the energy is dissipated as the spark continues. Voltage requirements are very high with an open spark plug or wire. The ignition coil may have enough reserve energy to fire the connected plug at idle, but possibly not under some engine load conditions. A more noticeable misfire may be evident under load; both spark plugs may then not fire.

Crankshaft Position Sensors and Reluctor Ring
The two crankshaft sensors are located on the front bank (BANK 2) of the engine block between cylinders 4 and 6. Crankshaft position A sensor is located in the upper crankcase and crankshaft position B sensor is located in the lower crankcase. Both sensors extend into the crankcase and are sealed to the engine block with O-rings. The crankshaft position sensors are not adjustable.

The magnetic crankshaft position sensors operate similar to the pickup coil in a distributor. When a piece of steel (called a reluctor) is repeatedly moved over the sensor, a voltage will be created by the sensor that appears to go On-Off-On-Off-On-Off. This On-Off signal is also similar to the signal that a set of breaker points in a distributor would generate as the distributor shaft turned and the points opened and closed.

The reluctor ring is cast onto the crankshaft between the #3 and #4 main bearing journals. The reluctor ring has 24 evenly spaced notches or air gaps and an additional 8 unevenly spaced notches for a total of 32.

As the crankshaft makes one complete revolution, both the A and B sensors will produce 32 On-Off pulses per revolution. In addition, the A sensor is positioned 27 degrees of crankshaft revolution before the B sensor. This creates a unique pattern of On-Off pulses sent to the ignition control module so that it can recognize crankshaft position.

Camshaft Sensor
The camshaft position sensor is located on the rear cylinder bank (BANK 1) in front of the exhaust camshaft. The camshaft position sensor extends into the rear cylinder head and is sealed with an O-ring. The camshaft position sensor is not adjustable.

As the rear cylinder bank exhaust camshaft turns, a steel pin on its drive sprocket passes over the magnetic camshaft position sensor. This creates an On-Off-On-Off signal sent to the ignition control module similar to the crankshaft position sensors. The camshaft position sensor produces one On-Off pulse for every one revolution of the camshaft or every two revolutions of the crankshaft. This allows the ignition control module to recognize camshaft position.

Ignition Control Module
The Ignition Control (IC) module is located on top of the rear camshaft cover. The IC module performs several functions:


It monitors the On-Off pulses produced by the two crankshaft and one camshaft position sensors.

It creates a 4X and 24X reference signal (4X REF HI and 24X Crank) sent to the PCM for ignition control.

It creates a camshaft reference signal (CAM HI) sent to the PCM for fuel injection control.

It provides a ground reference (REF LO, CAM LO) to the PCM.

It provides a means for the PCM to control spark advance (BYPASS and IGNITION CONTROL) called IGNITION CONTROL MODE.

It provides a limited means of controlling spark advance without PCM input called MODULE MODE.

The IC module is not repairable. When a module is replaced the remaining components must be transferred to the new module.


Ignition Coils
Four separate coils are mounted to the module assembly. Each coil provides the spark for two spark plugs simultaneously (wasted spark ignition). Each coil can be replaced separately.


Base Ignition Timing
The base ignition timing is determined by the relationship of the crankshaft position sensors to the reluctor ring. This relationship is not adjustable and results in a base ignition timing of 10 degrees BTDC.

IC Module Mode
There are two modes of ignition system operation: PCM mode and Ignition Control Module (IC Module) mode. In IC Module mode, the ignition system operates independently from the PCM. The ignition control module maintains a base ignition timing of 10 degrees BTDC and is able to change this ignition timing slightly with increased engine speed. IC Module mode is in effect whenever an ignition control fault is detected while the engine is running and it will have a noticeable effect on driveability. In PCM mode, the PCM controls the ignition timing. The PCM calculates the desired ignition timing based on information it receives from the input sensors.

PCM Timing Mode
The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) controls spark advance and fuel injection for all driving conditions. The PCM monitors input signals from the following components as part of its ignition control function to determine the required ignition timing:


Ignition Control Module (IC Module).

Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor.

Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor.

Transaxle Range (TR) switch.

Throttle Position (TP) sensor.

Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS).

Knock Sensor (KS).


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Ignition%20systems/CRANKSENSORS.gif



The crankshaft reluctor ring has 24 evenly spaced notches plus 8 additional notches (shaded) used for synchronization.

As the crankshaft rotates, the notches pass the position sensors and create a voltage pulse signal in the sensor that is an input for the ignition control module (ICM).

Because of the physical location of the 2 crankshaft position sensors, the signal of B lags the signal of A by 27 degrees of crankshaft revolution.

To synchronize the ignition, the ICM first counts the number of B pulses between every 2 A pulses. There can be 0, 1, or 2 B pulses between A pulses.

When the ICM sees 0 B pulses between A pulses , it starts counting B pulses between A pulses. When the ICM counts exactly 4, it synchronizes the ignition on the very next A pulse. If the ICM counts over 4 (jumps from 3 to 5), it waits for another B pulse between A pulse to start counting again.

This process allows the ignition to synchronize and fire the first spark plug within 180 degrees (1/2 engine revolution).

The camshaft position (CMP) sensor provides the ICM with cylinder #1 firing order information, which the PCM uses for sequential fuel injection.

Using 3 sensors allows the ICM to maintain ignition synchronization even if one of the 3 sensors fails.


Ignition Control Module Inputs and Outputs

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Ignition%20systems/MAP.gif

[CalEditor]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/Shelby%20TIS/snap.jpg

[joecar]

CalEditor, welcome to the forum... :cheers:

[CalEditor]

I have the same thoughts on these engines. Interesting...:)

There has been a little talk of running early model Northstar's on a 0411 pcm of late.

But a E67 sounds like fun to.

You don't happen to have a 0411 pcm tune file for a Northstar do you Ross?

I think you might find the 4L60E will bolt up well, I would be very surprised if it was a no go.

Mick


The N* IIRC has the V6/FWD trans bolt pattern. So you would need a S10 or other narrow trans housing.

But the nice thing is after 95 or so, all the 4L60E's had removable bells....

I know I personally have thought of a 0411 swap in them, but they have so much headgasket issues, and so darn pricey to fix, i would rather toss in an 0411 PCM and a LS4......

The issue really is running the engine is easy, but running the FDC (Fuel Data Center) and other high tech electronics is unknown territory.....

I have been around NODIH about a year. I think we will be meeting up this weekend. I have know Mick a few month on another forum

[CalEditor]

Hi All,

Just wondering, what sort of crank / cam signals do the RWD Northstar engines have (pre 2007 E67 versions)? I know the earlier ones had twin crank sensors, but I would be certain this has changed on the E67 based ones.
Retrofitting those earlier ones that have the stupid Siemens PCM would be an interesting project, especially when the Shelby 4.0L Northstar uses an LS1 PCM :shock: (See this Ebay Motors Item number: 230237506492)
Also, anyone know how well a 4L60E might bolt up to one?

Thanks,
Ross

All FWD 1996 to 1999 Northstars either Oldsmobile or Cadillac run a Delco PCM with a SERV. NO. 16214848

All 1999 RWD run a Delphi PCM & SERV. NO. 9354896
Lyndon has the software to tune


In 2000 they repositioned the crank sensors and redesigned the notches on the crank. So the block and PCM have to match at this time

All 2000 to 2003 run the same PCM. It is the SIEMENS. They had several SERV. NO. but they all supersede to one number. The PCM in my hand is a 12562481 and I know it is not the latest and greatest number.

All 2004 and 2005 FWD used a Serv. NO. 12587465 PCM. I think the is a E22, but it is not GMLAN. This has Transmission functions
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/HPIM0211.jpg

This is a link to some PCM type and Information on all GM PCM's

PCM Type & Information List (http://www.monodax.com/forums/off-topic/1339-pcm-type-information-list.html)

[97K15004WD]

Nice Info. Thank you!

[joecar]

CalEditor,

Did you delete the ICM and just let the PCM drive 8 coils (and what did you do for the CKP/CMP reluctor wheels)...?

Cheers
Joe
:cheers:

[CalEditor]

CalEditor,

Did you delete the ICM and just let the PCM drive 8 coils (and what did you do for the CKP/CMP reluctor wheels)...?

Cheers
Joe
:cheers:

NO.

I will post more infor later. Cadillac's are calling me for help. In other words I must work

[CalEditor]

Nice Info. Thank you!

MDI is on it's way

[CalEditor]

Oh yeah this might help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztnK5e9BSF4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URbE2xi-BvE

The Shelby setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVfXwRXZtGo

[CalEditor]

CalEditor,

Did you delete the ICM and just let the PCM drive 8 coils (and what did you do for the CKP/CMP reluctor wheels)...?

Cheers
Joe
:cheers:

The Shelby setup use all the stock GM sensors. They added one more. It is a Rough Road Sensor. It as a G sensor mounted Verticaly.

The 99 uses the stock crank and cam sensors. It used the stock coils.
The 2001 the Shelby Series II used the later style engine with 8 coils and the newer cranks sensors. This car was just a prototype, so I can't get my hands on the Cal ID. :secret:

I have a 2000 crank sensor a mapped out, but I have a raw mechanical version, not the electrical version yet.

Anyway much of this is :secret::thumb_yello:

[joecar]

What is the RRS used for...?

[joecar]

lol...

The Cady is a real "sleeper"... :cheers:
The Fiero is some rocket... :cheers:

[CalEditor]

What is the RRS used for...?

Gyrating crankshaft. :rotflmao:

OK wheel hop. This will set a P0300.

[CalEditor]

I had some fun at the track today.
2003 DHS 275 hp engine. Stock time I believe was 16.1
The 300 hp was 15.5

We ran a 14.7 @ 94.8

[N0DIH]

What gearing? 3.15's or 3.71's?

Nice run!

[CalEditor]

What gearing? 3.15's or 3.71's?

Nice run!

It had 3.11 and I installed 3.71 for the customer

[GMPX]

I have here the early Delphi one, then the two Seimens type, the ones you had the pictures of and the earlier one that was similar shape to the LS1 PCM, unfortunately totally different inside.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers,
Ross



All FWD 1996 to 1999 Northstars either Oldsmobile or Cadillac run a Delco PCM with a SERV. NO. 16214848

All 1999 RWD run a Delphi PCM & SERV. NO. 9354896
Lyndon has the software to tune


In 2000 they repositioned the crank sensors and redesigned the notches on the crank. So the block and PCM have to match at this time

All 2000 to 2003 run the same PCM. It is the SIEMENS. They had several SERV. NO. but they all supersede to one number. The PCM in my hand is a 12562481 and I know it is not the latest and greatest number.

All 2004 and 2005 FWD used a Serv. NO. 12587465 PCM. I think the is a E22, but it is not GMLAN. This has Transmission functions


This is a link to some PCM type and Information on all GM PCM's

PCM Type & Information List (http://www.monodax.com/forums/off-topic/1339-pcm-type-information-list.html)

[CalEditor]

I have here the early Delphi one, then the two Seimens type, the ones you had the pictures of and the earlier one that was similar shape to the LS1 PCM, unfortunately totally different inside.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers,
Ross

You are very funny

:doh2:

OK my fault. I will fix it know!

[CalEditor]

"especially when the Shelby 4.0L Northstar uses an LS1 PCM"

OK We will start with that PCM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0248.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0249.jpg

[CalEditor]

NEXT on to the 2000 to 2003 PCM. My Favorite:grin:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0250.jpg
:secret:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0251-1.jpg

That is 275 ft lbs. This ran a 14.7 this night, but not this run this run was a 14.8. This is a 2003 DHS 275hp 4400 lbs car and stock ran a 16.1
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/Trans275ft-lbs.jpg

[CalEditor]

NEXT on to the 1996 to the 1999 PCM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0252.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0253.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/99PCMinsides2.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/99pcminsides.jpg

[CalEditor]

NEXT on to the 2004 & 2005
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0254.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0255.jpg

ALL OF THEM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0256-1.jpg

I have Stacks of Northstar PCM's all years. this is some of my 2000 to 2003's
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/PCMs.jpg

[CalEditor]

If you ever get board and want to waist a day or two you can read this cluster
Northstar Tuning (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/105315-northstar-tuning.html)

[CalEditor]

Northstar PCM History
1996
This used UART for communication with the ABS/TCS module only this year
This ran 4 O2 sensors
This had 2nd gear starts with TCS turned off
It had no FTP sensor and used a purge switch
This uses a Brake Booster Vacuum Sensor
All of the cars used a VATS system in the IPC and Class II from the IPC to the PCM.

The domestic calibration package = United States, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Caribbean and Guam.
The Unleaded Export calibration package K29 has some DTCs disabled and others have changed types (Type A to Type D, etc.). If a DTC has changed type or is disabled for the Unleaded Export calibration package. The Unleaded Export calibration package consists of vehicles sold in: Canada, Asia, Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Europe, Israel, Mexico, Iceland, South and Central America and Fleet/Govt./Military.

I have other Cals that are not listed. This is from a TSB
16256726 LD8 U.S. BASE CADILLAC DEVILLE/ ELDORADO/ SEVILLE SLS

16256736 LD8 EUROPEAN EXPORT SEVILLE

16256746 U. S. NOISE CONTROL SEVILLE / MEXICAN DEVILLE

16256756 L37 U.S. CADILLAC ETC / STS WITH "Z" TIRES

16256766 L37 U.S. CADILLAC ETC / STS CONCOURS WITH "H" TIRES

16256776 EXPORT UNLEADED CADILLAC ETC / STS WITH "Z" TIRES

16256786 EXPORT NOISE CONTROL CADILLAC ETC / STS

16256796 EXPORT NOISE CONTROL CADILLAC CONCOURS

16256826 CANADIAN BASE CADILLAC DEVILLE/ ELDORADO/ SEVILLE

16256836 CANADIAN CADILLAC ETC/ STS/ CONCOURS WITH "H" TIRES

16256846 CANADIAN CADILLAC ETC/ STS WITH "Z" TIRES

NOTE: NOISE CONTROL HAS A DELAYED DOWN SHIFT






1997
This ran a second Class II circuit used by the ABS/TCS
This had a few new DTC’s
2nd gear starts when the TCS is turned off
This ran 4 O2 sensors
It had no FTP sensor and used a purge switch
This uses a Brake Booster Vacuum Sensor
All of the cars used a VATS system in the IPC and Class II from the IPC to the PCM.

The domestic calibration package = United States, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Caribbean and Guam.
The Unleaded Export calibration package K29 has some DTCs disabled and others have changed types (Type A to Type D, etc.). If a DTC has changed type or is disabled for the Unleaded Export calibration package. The Unleaded Export calibration package consists of vehicles sold in: Canada, Asia, Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Europe, Israel, Mexico, Iceland, South and Central America and Fleet/Govt./Military.

I have other Cals that are not listed. This is from a TSB
OLD CAL. NEW CAL. ENGINE
NUMBER NUMBER RPO DESCRIPTION
-------- -------- ------ -----------
16244126 16256586 LD8 U.S. BASE CADILLAC DEVILLE/ELDORADO/SEVILLE SLS
16244136 16256596 LD8 EUROPEAN EXPORT SEVILLE
16244146 16256606 LD8 U.S. NOISE CONTROL SEVILLE/MEXICAN DEVILLE
16244216 16256696 LD8 CANADIAN BASE CADILLAC DEVILLE/ELDORADO/ SEVILLE SLS

16244756 16256616 L37 U.S. CADILLAC ETC/STS WITH "Z" TIRES
16244766 16256626 L37 U.S. CADILLAC ETC/STS CONCOURS WITH "H" TIRES
16245336 16256636 L37 EXPORT UNLEADED CADILLAC ETC/STS WITH "Z" TIRES
16245346 16256646 L37 EXPORT NOISE CONTROL CADILLAC ETC//STS
16245406 16256706 L37 CANADIAN CADILLAC ETC/STS/CONCOURS WITH"H" TIRES
16245416 16256716 L37 CANADIAN CADILLAC ETC/STS WITH "Z" TIRES

16256896 LD8 U.S. CADILLAC LIMOUSINE/FUNERAL COACH
16245356 NF2 NM8 DUBAI , AE LEADED FUEL

NOTE: NOISE CONTROL HAS A DELAYED DOWN SHIFT




1998 & 1999

The Deville’s and Eldo’s still use VATS system.
The Seville used a PKIII system and an enhanced Class II system
1998 did away with the Brake Booster Vacuum Sensor and the Purge Switch.
They added a Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor
1998 switched to 3 O2 sensors.
I have found that some export programs will not start in Seville’s. I have not tried them in Deville’s with VATS

I have other Cals that are not listed. This is from a TSB
1998

09369826 LD8 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC ELDORADO BASE
09369836 LD8 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC DE VILLE BASE
09369886 LD8 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC SEVILLE BASE

09369856 L37 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC ELDORADO, DE VILLE CONCOURS WITH "H" TIRES
09369906 L37 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC SEVILLE WITH WITH "H" TIRES
09369846 L37 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC ETC WITH "Z" TIRES
09369896 L37 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC SEVILLE STS WITH "Z" TIRES

09369916 LD8 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC LIMOUSINE/ FUNERAL COACH

I have other Cals that are not listed. This is from a TSB

1999

09366086 LD8 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC ELDORADO BASE
09366096 LD8 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC DE VILLE BASE
09366146 LD8 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC SEVILLE BASE

09366116 L37 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC ELDORADO, DE VILLE, CONCOURS WITH "H" TIRES
09366166 9388195 L37 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC SEVILLE WITH "H" TIRES
09366106 L37 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC ETC WITH "Z" TIRES
09366156 L37 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC SEVILLE STS WITH "Z" TIRES 9388186

09366176 LD8 U.S. AND CANADIAN CADILLAC LIMOUSINE/ FUNERAL COACH


Northstar Knock modules.
Year-------------------First #------------Second # below-----PCM Hardware code
1996 PCM ------- Module #16196410--------1585300-----------BTBU
1997 PCM ------- Module #16196410--------1587112-----------CBRK--This ran to 125 mph but bucked after 110
199? PCM ------- Module #16196410--------1587195-----------CBRK--I have ran this past 135 mph
1999 PCM ------- Module #16196410--------1588106 --------- --I could not go over 100mph
1998 PCM ------- Module #16196410--------1588058 -----------CHZP--I ran this to 125 mph.
1998 PCM ------- Module #16196410--------1587149 -----------CHZJ--This ran to 130 mph

1996 to 1999 PCM’s

All of the cars ran the Same PCM service number 16214848
It runs a Knock module
It does not require a separate VTD relearn
It does not require Crank Shaft Variance Learning

[GMPX]

Thanks CalEditor. The one you show as 2004 & 2005, does that do trans as well? I have a couple of those, one black, one not, but the same service number.
I also have a Siemens TCM that was supposedly from the same vehicle, but I was under the impression the 2004-2005 engine computer does trans as well. Why else would it need 2 x CPU's!

Cheers,
Ross

[GMPX]

If you ever get board and want to waist a day or two you can read this cluster
Northstar Tuning (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/105315-northstar-tuning.html)

You're not wrong, there is a bunch of posts.
Say, your avatar over there looks like TunerCats maps :unsure:

[MICK]

Ross,

TC (John), has packaged his software and customized it for a number of vendors.

Jet Performance Products have purchased gas and diesel rights to the software. In doing so, the original unlimited version of TC was taken from the market. A limited number of original TC customers are still supported via John directly.

Westers Garage (Lyndon Wester) has a version of the TC software customized for his customer bases. Westers has also supported a scan tool (PCM Scan) to work with the TC OBD2 interface. I would imagine this is what you see.....Correct Tom?

Flash Chips (Ed Wright) may have a version of the TC software as well. Don't know much about this or if this information is correct. I have seen a version of the flash utility in the flashchips colours...:)

The Only other Tuning Software I know of is the Real Time Roadrunner software supported via Craig Moates, God bless his mortal emulation soul.....LOL..Yep once you tune realtime it hurts to go back.

MxScan (James Brimson) supports the Monodax forum and the MxScan scan tool software. I earn for the day that further developments in this software are made public as the GUI layout looks interesting.

Until then, I will enjoy the use of EFILive.....:devil_2:

[GMPX]

MxScan (James Brimson) supports the Monodax forum and the MxScan scan tool software. I earn for the day that further developments in this software are made public as the GUI layout looks interesting.

Interesting.....ah, yeah I guess so :music_whistling_1:
http://www.monodax.com/mxscan.htm

Cheers,
Ross

[MICK]

LOL.

You are a funny Man Ross!

I tried to send you a PM but you obviously get hundreds of them as the return I got was that your mail box was full....TT.

I was wondering if you could send me a copy of the 0411 Shelby Tune you have?

Looking at new things is a passion I have.

mickclean@bigpond.com.au

cheers

Mick

[CalEditor]

Thanks CalEditor. The one you show as 2004 & 2005, does that do trans as well? I have a couple of those, one black, one not, but the same service number.
I also have a Siemens TCM that was supposedly from the same vehicle, but I was under the impression the 2004-2005 engine computer does trans as well. Why else would it need 2 x CPU's!

Cheers,
Ross
The 2004 and 2005 have Trans functions. It uses the the same block, crank, and crank sensors as the 2000 to 2003.
The 2006+ uses one crank sensor monted under the intake manifold.
The 2006+ run a E67 and a TCM. The 2004 and 2005 is not an E67. I can not find any ID markings, but I think it is a E22. It looks similar to the E22 used in the 2004 XLR. The XLR uses GMLAN/CAN and a TCM. The Sevice #'s are different between the two. I have a whole lot of XLR info, but the files are too big to send you.

[vectorbundle]

hello everyone,

new guy here, flash various GM stuff, not EFIlive user. but open to the idea -- especially if/when n* will be on the menu :) meanwhile i may want to try a few things on my own...

question for caleditor -- have you bench-flashed the 04-05 boxes, and if so, can you share the pinout?

-alex

[CalEditor]

hello everyone,

new guy here, flash various GM stuff, not EFIlive user. but open to the idea -- especially if/when n* will be on the menu :) meanwhile i may want to try a few things on my own...

question for caleditor -- have you bench-flashed the 04-05 boxes, and if so, can you share the pinout?

-alex

Pin Out (http://www.omnituner.com/Default.aspx?tabid=55&g=posts&t=57)

[vectorbundle]

thanks, got it working...

[vectorbundle]

anyone with potentially "nice" N* VINs they would be gracious enough to share, please feel free to email them to me (nice meaning limo cals, z tires, middle east cals, etc). 4848, siemens, P07 boxes, anything and everything potentially uesful. TIA for any info...

best,
alex
vectorbundle@gmail.com

[vectorbundle]

i need pinout for the siemens box please. tia...

-alex

[vectorbundle]

the shelby roadster which used the LS1 box -- what was the crank sensor resolution, same as LS1?

-alex

[N0DIH]

Not sure, but if you find a VIN, you can check acdelco.com and punch in the VIN and find out what PN and what vehicles it was used on. Where Used is one of my favorite tools....

[vectorbundle]

The 2004 and 2005 is not an E67. I can not find any ID markings, but I think it is a E22.

it can't be EXX bc it controls the trans. i think it may be P07 (?)

N0DIH, thanks, good idea. but acdelco.com doesn't like shelby VINs :)

-alex

[CalEditor]

the shelby roadster which used the LS1 box -- what was the crank sensor resolution, same as LS1?

-alex

NO the shelby uses 4 coil pack and one module :secret:

[CalEditor]

Tom is going to help me hook up a Road Runner to the 2000 to 2003 PCM soooooon

[N0DIH]

Northstar/Aurora v8 style?


NO the shelby uses 4 coil pack and one module :secret:

[N0DIH]

:secret:project....





Tom is going to help me hook up a Road Runner to the 2000 to 2003 PCM soooooon

[GMPX]

NO the shelby uses 4 coil pack and one module :secret:
Yeah, they look like a 3800 V6 coil pack with one more coil added. Is that the ones?

Cheers,
Ross

[CalEditor]

NO the shelby uses 4 coil pack and one module :secret:

The LS1 PCM that is used on the Northstar uses a signal from the ICM not a crank sensor.

:secret:

[97K15004WD]

crack sensor.:secret:

What is a "crack sensor"?

[N0DIH]

Well, I can tell you for sure, you don't wanna know WHERE it is.... We won't go into what it is....


What is a "crack sensor"?

IIRC the module gets crank/cam sensor inputs but still waits for EST signal from the PCM telling it the delay (+ or -) on when to actually trigger the flyback.

So the sensor inputs might need to be tweaked if the N* and LS1 use different crank triggers. should be quite easy really.


The LS1 PCM that is used on the Northstar uses a signal from the ICM not a crack sensor.

:secret:

[CalEditor]

:secret:project....

Yes Tom.
I wanted to meet up with you today at the track and give you one of my spare PCM's to this this going. I am only going to be up here for so long and then I need to be with my Family. I only have one test car and it is up here.

Well maybe I will have to drive down by you.
Also I think I have another way to read the old Delco PCM the Caddy used from 96 to 99.

I have been thinking about this way too hard.

This PCM.
I think Loyde told me a trick a few years back.:secret:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0252.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0253.jpg

I am sure you know how to do that Ross

[CalEditor]

What is a "crack sensor"?

Grrrrrrrrrrrr
I am practicing my southern
Yall

[N0DIH]

Oh yeah, that is easy, we used to do that at work all the time.... Saved us headaches changing things when we did housing swaps....

I still am trying to get up there today, just talking to my wife about it, probably bring my oldest too.


Yes Tom.
I wanted to meet up with you today at the track and give you one of my spare PCM's to this this going. I am only going to be up here for so long and then I need to be with my Family. I only have one test car and it is up here.

Well maybe I will have to drive down by you.
Also I think I have another way to read the old Delco PCM the Caddy used from 96 to 99.

I have been thinking about this way too hard.

This PCM.
I think Loyde told me a trick a few years back.:secret:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0252.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/PCM%20Stuff/PCM%20types/HPIM0253.jpg

I am sure you know how to do that Ross

[CalEditor]

Oh yeah, that is easy, we used to do that at work all the time.... Saved us headaches changing things when we did housing swaps....

I still am trying to get up there today, just talking to my wife about it, probably bring my oldest too.

Call me. I will need to get that Caddy full of juice and fix the POS soleniod

[N0DIH]

ok, will do here in a short bit, gotta finish some stuff....

[CalEditor]

ok, will do here in a short bit, gotta finish some stuff....

Bert has other plans.
I have his truck (I am using it for my house), so I can't take all his cars and leave him with nothing
I guess I can't go :bad:

[N0DIH]

Tomorrow is T&T at Byron for the big Olds meet on Sunday. I am planning on going, hopefully both days.... Feel like coming out?

[vectorbundle]

Pin Out (http://www.omnituner.com/Default.aspx?tabid=55&g=posts&t=57)

i tried using various bench harness setups based on this pinout (J1 blue connector) to reflash the simens box with TIS and it isn't working right. after it finishes it keeps restarting. anyone bench flashed the siemens box successfully? what bench harness setup? thanks...

-alex

[CalEditor]

i tried using various bench harness setups based on this pinout (J1 blue connector) to reflash the simens box with TIS and it isn't working right. after it finishes it keeps restarting. anyone bench flashed the siemens box successfully? what bench harness setup? thanks...

-alex

All the time.

[vectorbundle]

what is your bench harness pinout?

[GMPX]

Need to come up with an E67 adaptor harness and be done with those Siemens boxes :sly:

[vectorbundle]

heh. i couldn't care less about the siemens boxes, but someone asked for a replacement box flashed for his VIN. every other GM box with a blue 80 pin connector works with the same bench harness, but for some reason not this stupid [expletive] box...

[CalEditor]

heh. i couldn't care less about the siemens boxes, but someone asked for a replacement box flashed for his VIN. every other GM box with a blue 80 pin connector works with the same bench harness, but for some reason not this stupid [expletive] box...

CHECK YOUR FUSE!
DO NOT CONNECT ANY OTHER HARNESS TO THIS PCM!!!!:bangin:

I use a J45211 Stand Alone Programming Adapter. You don't need it and I haven't always had it.

I will get the pin out of that adapter

[vectorbundle]

there is no fuse, i am bench flashing it. i read the TIS message about the adapter, don't have it but if you can get me the pinout that would be great. don't know what i am doing wrong, but presumably i am not pinning the blue connector properly. like i said it flashes but doesn't complete correctly. and it's not the ECM bc i have a couple and they act the same.

-alex

[vectorbundle]

ok, i found out this is a known issue. this ECM can't be flashed with J2534 system i am using, presumably only tech2. just wasted so much time on this p-o-s box for nothing...

thanks anyway.

-alex

[GMPX]

I was just about to post that you need to make sure every +12V input to the ECM is connected, sometimes different parts of the ECM's are powered from other inputs.
But, looks like you found the problem anyway.

[CalEditor]

I will give you the pinout and then you will see.

I use other J2534 devices on these.

[vectorbundle]

ok, thanks.

[CalEditor]

CAL ??
A Calibration method used by GM Powertrain and owned by Delphi
Delphi publishes a list of known micro/compiler combinations that have been used with CAL ??


?? has worked with Delphi to ensure that the output of the ??7 C compilers (Metroworks and Cosmic) comply with CAL ??
?? has verified a conversion tool to generate an output file from our ??9 compiler to be used with CAL ??

OK Then look at this
http://iam.delphi.com/en-us/serviceandtraining/serviceandproducts/reflash.htm

http://iam.delphi.com/en-us/news/featurestories/flashtool.htm

[CalEditor]

you are not using a Y cable by any chance Alex?

[vectorbundle]

this is the EASE system. i am using it. according to EASE themselves, it does not work on siemens. i spoke with them, and it is listed as a known issue:

http://www.obd2.com/support/reprog/reprog_vehicle-issues.htm

but if you say it works with your pinout, email me the pinout and i'll try it...

[vectorbundle]

you are not using a Y cable by any chance Alex?

what's a Y cable? i am using a blue J1 extension pinned for siemens. i tried it in "off-board" mode using the EASE off-board raw cable (i have it set up for attaching different extensions). and also on-board mode using a bench harness powered by 12v (a la mike's eficonnection.com setup). same deal, flash doesn't terminate properly and cycles back to beginning.

[CalEditor]

DLC #2 CL2 goes to pins #18 & #59 BLUE
DLC #4 & #5 Ground goes to pins # #3, #15, #25 CLEAR and #60 BLUE
DLC #16 B+ goes to pins #19 & #83 BLUE

IGN pins are #20 & #21 BLUE

Active pins are #17, #49, #50, #51, #57 CLEAR (they are all 5V ref)

After the programing is completed turn the ign off. DO NOT REMOVE B+ UNTIL THE 5V REF IS GONE!

I have 2 LED lights that stay on and you are not to disconnect the battery or PCM until the lights go out.

[vectorbundle]

there is no blue 83, you mean 63?

[CalEditor]

there is no blue 83, you mean 63?

correct 63

[vectorbundle]

no good, does same thing.

[CalEditor]

Are you getting an error message? What Line is it if you are?

[vectorbundle]

yes, after it cycles 2nd time. more than one line, i didn't check. i'll try again later tonight and post.

[CalEditor]

2000-2001 Cadillac Controllers - A communication error may occur at the end of the reprogram in the TIS software. If you receive this error once the progress bar goes to 100% you will not be able to reprogram this controller.
all 2000 to 2003 FWD Northstar PCM's interchange


1999-2003 Corvettes & Cadillacs - GM Requires that a Star Adapter be used during reprogramming the PCM in-vehicle. The controller can be reflashed Off-Board without any problems. Check any TSB's on the vehicle to be sure it requires the adapter.

The 2000 to 2003 could not be programmed in the car until the MDI came around. Some times the MDI will fail on the first attempt, but goes through on the second. If you use the MDI and the J45211 it works ok the first time.
The issue with doing it in the car is 80% with the PKIII system. If you unplug it the program goes through

[vectorbundle]

i know about the interchange, it is not stated correctly. what is MDI? thanks.

[s10mods]

So the LS1 pcm can control a N*?

[CalEditor]

So the LS1 pcm can control a N*?

s10mods come on now :doh2:

The LS1 PCM was used on a 99 Northstar FWD engine in a RWD application from the factory. This was a very small run of a car.

The 2000 Northstar is very different from the 99 engine. The Crank sensors are different and the reluctor ring is cut different. The 2000+ are COP also

In 2006 they redesigned the FWD engine again and uses a single crank sensor, the cam sensor is moved to the intake cam from the exhaust and it uses a E67 ECM

93 to 99 engines are similar 93 to 95 are SD and have no MAF. You can adapt and 93 to 99 to run on the 99 LS1 program and PCM

[s10mods]

I knew that what I ment was what did they come from the factory on? what vehicle was RWD with the N* and LS1 pcm? if it was from the factory that way, I wanted to look up the wiring diagrams for that vehicle.

[CalEditor]

I knew that what I ment was what did they come from the factory on? what vehicle was RWD with the N* and LS1 pcm? if it was from the factory that way, I wanted to look up the wiring diagrams for that vehicle.

Why?

[s10mods]

Why?


Because I like to look at wiring diagrams for different vehicles.

[CalEditor]

Ross thanks for the help on the XLR stuff. I wasn't told that the engines were older. Maybe a year ago I was. Anyway I guess he is looking for some new T-bodies

[Danny11778]

Thank You for the welcome!....Great forum and website!....however?...I may be in over my head???....I just picked up an 01 deville dhs for what i think is going to be another hobby car! This car/engine is like from another planet!....lol... Think maybe i should just stick with my 1985 307 riviera?

I just got car, ran a scan and appears I have to inspect or change crankshaft sensors. code po 336 came up with service soon light.

car starts runs (fast/slow idle) about 5 minutes, and shuts down.... to re-start you have to turn key off and will then run for hours.

I would appreciate any info on how to clean/change sensors or any advice as to if i'm on the right track?

Regards,
Danny






CalEditor, welcome to the forum... :cheers:

[joecar]

Hi Danny, do you get any other DTC's, like VAT/VTD...?

[Danny11778]

Only codes i get are po 336,340,341,385,410 and 401 (exhaust gas recirculation insuffiecient flow detected

[CalEditor]

You need some crank sensors.
Look on the Cadillac Owners forum for a how to. Do a search.

[deVWille]

hello everyone, I am new to this site and hopefully found some help. It seems that it has been a few years since this topic was opened. has anybody worked out a simpler controller for the northstar? I have a 2000 4.6 with 4t80 into a VW beetle. had original PCM reprogrammed to run, and it does run!! I would like to install a different PCM that can be easily modified by the local tuning shop. nobody seems to be able to crack this 00 to 04 version. has anyone had success running a newer PCM for only engine and trans control???

[CalEditor]

hello everyone, I am new to this site and hopefully found some help. It seems that it has been a few years since this topic was opened. has anybody worked out a simpler controller for the northstar? I have a 2000 4.6 with 4t80 into a VW beetle. had original PCM reprogrammed to run, and it does run!! I would like to install a different PCM that can be easily modified by the local tuning shop. nobody seems to be able to crack this 00 to 04 version. has anyone had success running a newer PCM for only engine and trans control???

We are done with them, but try Northstar Performance

[GMPX]

Thanks for the update A.J, I wondered how far you got with those PCM's.