Injector settings?

[Aloicious]

Okay, So I've changed my intake on my '96 from running the crappy L31 poppets, to a MPFI intake running some common EV1 style Injectors like these:
http://www.tbdevelopments.com/catalog/images/delphiinjector.jpg

I'm using a 411 PCM running COS 3 based off OS#12212156 for a 2002 express van. well, I've got it running and doing well, but I KNOW some of the injector tables like B4005 are off quite a bit from the poppets (the poppet injector B4005 stock table is almost ALL negative :confused:), but I'm having a hard time trying to find another tune that runs this type of injector running the same OS so I can get the #'s from.

I know the C3500 on holdencrazy uses the same injectors, but the OS is way different and much of the injector tables don't transfer over.

Does ANYONE have a stock tune for anything running OS#12212156 and those EV1 injectors?

[Aloicious]

anyone?

any info would help out.

would the injector settings for the EV1 injectors be about the same as the EV6 that is fairly widely used?

the problem that I've got going on is basically the AutoVE is dialed in fairly well, for the most part, +- 1%. however I get a lean spike when the trottle is increased and a VERY rich spike (like down to 10:1 afr) when I let off the throttle. it happens at most all throttle increases/decreases, not just WOT. and the areas which the spikes occur end up averaging out to within 1% on autoVE (because the most time spent in those cells are durring driving, and the spikes are only at throttle changes), which is why I believe it is an injector tuning issue more than a VE issue...the real injectors work alot different than the stock poppet valves that were stock on the L31 motors. even if the injector settings aren't the full cause of it, I'd still like to get 'em dialed in correctly.

I'm not at my tuning computer tonight so I can't post a tune or log...but just mainly looking for the injector settings...

Thanks folks.

[joecar]

How to set those "other" injector tables is still a trial/error art unless you're able to flow measure injectors at their starting/stopping points...

If you have an oscilloscope you may (or may not) be able to see the lag between electrical and mechanical open/close events...

Hopefully someone will chime in with more info.


I borrowed this image from the picoscope website, I added the annotations:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5056/injectorwaveformsfl6.png

[Aloicious]

How to set those "other" injector tables is still a trial/error art unless you're able to flow measure injectors at their starting/stopping points...

If you have an oscilloscope you may (or may not) be able to see the lag between electrical and mechanical open/close events...

Hopefully someone will chime in with more info.


I borrowed this image from the picoscope website, I added the annotations:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5056/injectorwaveformsfl6.png


Thanks Joe, I don't have an oscilloscope here...I have one I can use, only problem is its about 120 miles away, and it is seriously from the 60's...

as far as flow rates, I did have the injectors flow tested and cleaned prior to installing them. so in the results, I have their static flow, pulsed flow @2500 rpm, and cc/min @43.5 psi. as well as their resistance test. the info I have is attached.

[dfe1]

The only significant difference between the EV1 and EV6 connectors is the connector. Before high flow EV6 injectors were a viable option, a fairly common option was (and still is) to install EV1 injectors, adapt the connectors, install fuel rail spacers and bolt everything together. You should be able to use a 12212156-based OS in your 411 computer, set the injector flow rate as required and call it a day. I wouldn't worry about opening/closing lag, voltage corrections and all the other injector minutia. You should be able to get things very close by working with injector flow rate. Once you get things sorted out, that you can play with the other stuff if you feel like it.

[Aloicious]

The only significant difference between the EV1 and EV6 connectors is the connector. Before high flow EV6 injectors were a viable option, a fairly common option was (and still is) to install EV1 injectors, adapt the connectors, install fuel rail spacers and bolt everything together. You should be able to use a 12212156-based OS in your 411 computer, set the injector flow rate as required and call it a day. I wouldn't worry about opening/closing lag, voltage corrections and all the other injector minutia. You should be able to get things very close by working with injector flow rate. Once you get things sorted out, that you can play with the other stuff if you feel like it.

Thanks Joe and Dfe1. I suspected the EV6's were pretty close to the EV1's, I've been running the 12212156 OS (well actually COS 3 of it) for a while without issue, but after the MPFI swap is when the issues showed up with rich decel, and lean throttle, so I was hoping to find another tune running the same OS and injectors I could just copy it and fine tune from there. but the poppet "injector" settings were almost totally opposite of any other calibrations I could find, so I knew they were way off when I swapped to EV1's.

I've got my IFR fairly well on (I used my injector flow testing data (average259cc/min), converted to gm/sec), and I've just swapped the injector info in from a 02 camero 5.7L w/ 12212156 OS, which, as I understand runs the EV6's, so I can hopefully fine tune from that.

Thanks again for the help guys.:cheers:

[Aloicious]

Okay, so I've been VEing ALOT and have got the BENs fairly well in line, except for the lean throttle tip in, and rich decel, I've played with the VE table in those areas, as well as using the MAF and adjusting it's table, but the rich/lean issue just stays the same. I'll attach my most recent autoVE log with the tune it was run on. I have been playing with the B3701 table to try and solve the problem but its just a crapshoot with it. The injectors I'm running, I found out, are stock LT1 24# rochester injectors.

does anyone have the pulsewidth vs. battery voltage tables for these stock LT1 24# injectors? I'm having a crazy hard time finding them.

Also, for those looking at my tune, my VE table has not been 'smoothed' after performing auto VE at the recommendation of others, and it is actually running well (despite the rich/lean issues) so keep that in mind when looking at the VE table.

:help2:

[hquick]

Hey Al,
funny this just popped up. I've been reading and searching all night for info on my 42's...but to no avail. I can't believe I should be using the same settings for my 42# as I was for the 19lb poppets (IFR excluded).

[Aloicious]

Hey Al,
funny this just popped up. I've been reading and searching all night for info on my 42's...but to no avail. I can't believe I should be using the same settings for my 42# as I was for the 19lb poppets (IFR excluded).

Hey Howard, thats my thinking exactally. especially since the poppets weren't actual "injectors", and if you compare the L31 injector settings to virtually anything else, there is some seriously strange things going on, like, compare the B4005 to any other vehicle, like a '02 camero which runs the same OS and you'll see what I'm talking about...

here's my theory on my lean throttle/rich decel problem:
take this chart showing what the PCM expects the injector to flow, its pulsewidth (under the red line), vs. the non-linear ACTUAL mechanical on/off flow of the injector (blue line)
http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/INJECTOR_nonlinear2.png

so to me, when looking at it, first off, if the pulsewidth commanded by the pcm is too short, there is more flow (blue line) outside of the expected (red line), especially around closing, if the PCM commands too wide a PW, you get less flow under the expected causing lean.....now if the part labeled 'offset' is too large, even if the pulsewidth is correct, that would push the time of the actual injector flow later, causing a lean condition at injector opening, and a rich condition around the throttle closing. this is all ofcourse if I'm interpreting this correctly.

so in my experimenting with B3701, I've been able to get a rich throttle tip in, and lean decel (opposite of my current problem), but nothing inbetween and the rich lean extremes seem to be much worse, so I'm still using the L31 B3701 right now. this makes me think it has to be an injector setting of some sort. I also noticed that the L31 tables B3702 and B3703 (injection timing offset) is a bit higher and b3703 is different than everything else (again compared to every other stock tune using the same OS - '02 camero, '02 vette, '02 silverado, etc...all of which use the exact same b3702-3 but different B3701's).

so I may have to cruise around to some LT1 forums and see if folk there have the pulsewidth vs voltage information for the injectors I'm using. I bet the injector settings are at least partially contributing to your issues as well.

let me know if you find anything else out.

[hquick]

Well.....I did some searching also...and found some interesting info on 'the other peoples' forum. :shock:
The HPT forum has a 13 page thread on this exact issue..I just haven't had time to read it again and digest it properly.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14101&highlight=pulse+width

[hquick]

Here's something else for you Al.


Ford lightening 42lb injector voltage offsets


Volts Delay Time
15.99 - 0.71484375
15 - 0.71484375
14 - 0.7861328125
13 - 0.9033203125
12 - 1.03125
11 - 1.197265625
10 - 1.396484375
8 - 2.1181640625
6 - 4.6474609375
0 - 4.6474609375
0 - 4.6474609375
0 - 4.6474609375

I just used the linear fill function to fill the extra slots in the EFILive table.

Here's mine (anyone else please comment if you think this is the wrong way of going about things...this seams to be a forbidden black art Lol!).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/42lbBoschGreentopFordMotorsportInje.jpg

Just ran some logs with these in there. Firstly...as soon as I loaded them the AFR guage went 2 points richer.
I didn't notice ANY pinging I've had all along.
Also...rich/lean didn't seem nearly as dramatic.
Still digging!!!

[Aloicious]

Here's something else for you Al.
I just used the linear fill function to fill the extra slots in the EFILive table.

Here's mine (anyone else please comment if you think this is the wrong way of going about things...this seams to be a forbidden black art Lol!).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/42lbBoschGreentopFordMotorsportInje.jpg

Just ran some logs with these in there. Firstly...as soon as I loaded them the AFR guage went 2 points richer.
I didn't notice ANY pinging I've had all along.
Also...rich/lean didn't seem nearly as dramatic.
Still digging!!!


hmm...thats interesting. thats the voltage correction factor table...from my understanding, it alters the injector flow based on fuel pump voltage, not really related to the offsets....though I could be wrong. but you got rid of the pinging, thats a good thing, so I would think that proves something with your injector tune is out of whack. what was your table at before? just the stock L31 settings?

in comparison to other vehicles, most others I find have that{B4002} table at 1.00 all the way across (expept for the L31 of course :throw:), and for a while I've had mine 1.00 across as well. didn't seem to help or hinder me though.

In reading the thread from the HPT thread you linked to talking about the voltage-offset-vac table {B3701}, I get that with the Rich decel I'm having it would likely be related to the table being too high, and in comparing the L31 settings with other non-poppet injector'd tunes, that looks like it might be right. @ 13.5 V (where I'm at the majority of the time), the L31 tune is at 0.6535, where as the settings for other vehicles using EV6 injectors in the same column are as follows:
'02 silverado 5.3 - 0.2584
'02 Vette 5.7 - ranges from 0.3495 - 0.3951
'07 Camaro 5.7 - ranges from 0.4103 - 0.4559

What are the issues you're getting on the 42#'s that you're running, besides the pinging?

[Aloicious]

here's a spreadsheet I found on LS1tech.com. hope they don't mind if I post it here, it compares some SVO injectors voltage offset to GM multec. could be usefull, gives the full range of settings as well, (all are less than the L31 tune's table as well...)

Edit - I'm going to try adjusting the B3701 table, getting a better slope like other tunes and lower values in the 10-15V range, and see how that goes. I'm hoping it will solve the rich decel (or at least lessen it so I can get it dialed in correctly), at which point I can focus on the lean tip in, and after that try to correct my VE and MAF where the fueling errors I couldn't filter out caused miscalculations.

I will be happy if it works.

[hquick]

And some more info I just found on them...

Ford's fuel systems run at 39 psi, hence why some state they are "rated" at non-standard bar ranges (i.e. 3-bar = 43.5 psi, 4-bar = 58 psi).

To answer the initial post of this thread, the red top "so called" 30# Bosch injector (aka SVO) flows 31.68010728 #/hr at 39 psi. In addition, the blue top "so called" 36# Bosch injector flows 34.560585 #/hr at 39 psi, and the green top "so called" 42# Bosch injector (the factory injector in the Lightning) flows 40.3198236 #/hr at 39 psi. These are all verified flow rates using Ford's test equipment.

One can easily convert these values to 58 psi by using this formula:

√(58/39)*x (where x is the injector values at 39 psi I gave above)

[hquick]

Sweet Al....I'm going to try those...just as soon as I dig up a bit more info.
Not sure what the IFR should be set at now.

[Aloicious]

Sweet Al....I'm going to try those...just as soon as I dig up a bit more info.
Not sure what the IFR should be set at now.

yeah get that all set up first. I got mine flow tested within 1% of each other, and set my fuel pressure and calculated the IFR with the methood described here:
http://http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4821&highlight=injector

so my injectors were flowtested at between 258-260cc/min, I used 259 to calculate my IFR, so 259cc/min=24.6667 lb/hr @43.5 psi, I'm running at 45psi with manifold reference unhooked (fp+baro)
so my calculation went like this:
24.6667*sqrt(45/43.5)=25.08838 lb/hr *.126 =3.161136 g/sec

however due to binary something or other, EFI live has to round to 3.16406 g/sec. so thats what I have in there.

[Aloicious]

heh, if I wasn't stuck at work I'd go test the altered voltage offset table right now..:doh2:

[hquick]

For some reason that link doesn't work Al.

[Aloicious]

For some reason that link doesn't work Al.

thats strange, not working for me now either, hmm..anyways, its a sticky in the 'general' section titled 'calculating injector flow rate' or something like that, authored by joecar.

[hquick]

Yeah...that's 3 versions I've found now..Lol!
Got an email address?
I'll send you what ever info I can't post.

[Aloicious]

Yeah...that's 3 versions I've found now..Lol!
Got an email address?
I'll send you what ever info I can't post.

yeah that basically give me the same info for the inputs, gave me 3.161175, which EFILive would round up to 3.16406 anyways. thats a good spreadsheet though, I'm keeping that....

on another note...JACKPOT!
I found this site: http://www.carprogrammer.com/

where that SVO vs multec voltage offset chart came from, and it just so turns out that the GM multec settings he listed look like they're from his LT1 camaro. so those should be the exact same kind of injectors I am currently running, I'm going to pull over that data into {B3701} and hopefully that should help.

also there is TONS of info on that site if you cruize around. definantly worth looking around.

also, I haven't looked at one of your tunes, but remember that your IFR should be a straight line since the FP regulator is manifold referenced (or I believe it is for your marine intake).

[hquick]

Yep...I just changed my IFR as per that spread sheet.
It was already same across the board but a little off.
I'll see what happens with it all.

[Aloicious]

Yep...I just changed my IFR as per that spread sheet.
It was already same across the board but a little off.
I'll see what happens with it all.

righteous, let us know what goes on with it. when I had my FP off (on my Adustable FPR), it was making the truck run horrible. same effect with a wrong IFR.

[hquick]

Don't know what to make of this?
Haven't had a chance to look over it as yet.

I used the injector settings as per Dan's tune as he seems to be the only person who has acquired the info from the manufacturer.

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=7574

[Aloicious]

Don't know what to make of this?
Haven't had a chance to look over it as yet.

I used the injector settings as per Dan's tune as he seems to be the only person who has acquired the info from the manufacturer.

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=7574

I'll have to check it out tommorow, I'm stuck at work w/o wireless internet today so I can't get these on my laptop.

I tried the 3701 settings from the GM multec and redid some of the VE table, really no change, still lean throttle, rich decel. I'm starting to wonder if its related to the throttle cracker/follower?

[Aloicious]

I'm going to try this tommorow, post #104 here:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=459&highlight=injector+offset&page=11

[hquick]

Mine was screwed. I had the B3647 set to 14.58..which I believe the PCM rounded to stoich. :mad:
Damn that's anoying!
Anyway...set at 14.5 now and I'll try it again tomorrow.

[Aloicious]

Mine was screwed. I had the B3647 set to 14.58..which I believe the PCM rounded to stoich. :mad:
Damn that's anoying!
Anyway...set at 14.5 now and I'll try it again tomorrow.

are you setting it low due to the whipple? I've got mine set at 14.68 - textbook stoich

[hquick]

Nah...I was setting it so it wouldn't go into closed loop...for autoVE purposes.

[Aloicious]

Nah...I was setting it so it wouldn't go into closed loop...for autoVE purposes.

Ah, gotcha. can't you just raise the entire CL enable temp table to something like 140*c that will never be reached, then you 'shouldn't' enter CL at all. thats what I've been doing, but keeping b3647 at 14.68

[hquick]

It's suggested in the tutorial to change all values in B3647 to something other than stoich or you'll end up with a 'semi' closed loop setup. Your O2's will be trimming.

On another note...after signing up to about 100 different forums to be able to use their search functions...I found the attached spreadsheet.
Just have to work out how to use it.

OK...found the info to go with the spreadsheet. (wish I knew the name of the guys to whom credit should go for this info)




since i just went though this, i thought i should write down what i learned before i forgot it. hopefully it will help some people ...

please accept my apologies beforehand for how long and rambling it is ... so here goes ...

the injector timing table is based on crank degrees, and specifies the degree at which the injector pulse should end. so it would be helpful if we came had a way to determine, for a given rpm and load, at what cam degree the injector pulse should end. note that crank degrees go from 0-720 instead of from 0-360 because the crank rotates 2 times for each revolution of the cam.

when there is little or no overlap between the closing of the exhaust valve and the opening of the intake valve, it may be desirable to actually start injecting the fuel before the intake valve opens. in this case, the fuel is squirted onto the back of the closed intake valve, because that may help atomize the fuel.

but if there is alot of valve overlap, then that approach is not as desirable, because when the intake valve opens, some of the fuel that was waiting to go into the cylinder will get mixed in with the exhaust (and ejected from the cylinder) and therefore not be burned, potentially resulting in a lean condition.

so a factor in deciding how early to start the injectors may be how much overlap there is in your cam.

here are my thoughts on a process to determine what values to put in the injector timing table ...

before we can pick an ending degree, we need a way to determine how many degrees the injector needs to provide the right amount of fuel. in order to do that, we need a way to figure out how much fuel is needed. once we know that, we can determine how many milliseconds the injector needs to be open to provide the fuel. then need to be able to figure out, for a given rpm, how many degrees the camshaft will turn during the time the injector is open. then, knowing the degrees at which the valves open and close, we can finally pick reasonable ending degrees for the injector timing.

for a certain rpm and load, we can estimate what the injector pulsewidth would be. for example, suppose we had a 410 with 42# injectors spinning at 3000 rpm under 50% load. what would the estimated pulsewidth be?

one cylinder has a maximum volume of 410/8, or 51.25 ci. since the volumetric efficiency of the engine is not 100%, for our example, let's use .85 as the VE factor, which means that a given cylinder will end up with a maximum of 51.25*.85 = 43.5625 ci of air. since our example is at 50% load, that would be 43.5625 *.50 = 21.78125 ci. this is the estimated amount of air (in cubic inches) each cylinder should receive per cycle.

there is a conversion factor that says one cubic foot of air contains .075 lbs of air. so in our example, we have 21.78125 / (12*12*12) = 0.01260489 cubic feet of of air. so we have 0.01260489 * .075 = 0.00094536675 lbs of air

now that we know we have 0.00094536675 lbs of air in the cylinder, we can determine how much fuel we need ... using the standard air/fuel ratio of 14.67, we would need 0.00094536675/14.64 = .0000645742316 lbs of fuel.

since injectors are given in lbs per hour, and pulsewidths are in milliseconds, we need to convert to lbs per ms. so for 42# injectors, we have 42/(60 minutes*60 seconds*1000 milliseconds) = 0.0000116666667 lbs of fuel per ms.

so to get .0000644421779 lbs of fuel, we would open the injectors for a pulswidth of .0000645742316/0.0000116666667 = 5.53493412 ms. but since there is a small delay (about .05 ms) before the injectors actually start squirting the fuel, lets add .05 to the pw, getting about 5.58 for the desired injector pulsewidth.

notice that if we figure out the pw for the case where load is 100% (WOT), then we can just multiply that by the load later to simplify things. let's do that here:

max air in lbs: (51.25*.85*.075)/(12*12*12) = 0.00189073351 lbs air
fuel needed for max air above: 0.00189073351 / 14.67 = 0.000128884357 lbs fuel
fuel in lbs per ms: (42/360000) = 0.0000116666667
ms needed to deliver the above fuel: (0.000128884357 / 0.0000116666667) = 11.05 ms
note that we will need to add the .05 ms delay to the pulsewidth after factoring in the load ...

so 11.10 ms is needed to deliver the most fuel the injecter should have to deliver. of course, this will be slightly higher if we want the afr to be lower. like when at WOT for example.

we will multiply this to the load later ...

ok, we are halfway there... now we get to figure out how many degrees the crank will turn during the 5.58 ms from our example above. that depends on how fast the crank is turning.

in our example, the crank is turning 3000 rpm. since there are 360 degrees in a revolution, 60 seconds per minute and 1000 ms per second, then we have the crank turning at (360*3000) / (60*1000) = 18 degrees per ms. so in 5.58 ms, the crank turns 18 * 5.58 = 100.44 degrees.

notice that the only variable above is the rpm, so for a given rpm we can do this to get the degrees per ms:

360*(rpm)/(60*1000)
= 360*rpm/60000
= rpm*(360/60000)
= rpm*0.006

we'll use this later too ... on to the cam events ...

so let's say that our cam has an intake lobe center of 110, a lsa of 112, a duration of 230 at .050" and 290 total duration. so how does that translate into crank degrees? here's how:

by definition, crank degrees 0-360 refer to the first revolution of the crank, and degrees 360-720 refer to the second revolution of the crank.

intake events are offsets from top dead center (TDC) or bottom dead center (BDC)of the cylinder during the phase in question. for the intake valve events, TDC is at degree 360.

since the intake lobe has a center of 110, that means the valve is open its highest at 360+110=470 degrees. a duration of 290 means that the valve opens at 470-(290/2) = 325 and closes at 470+(290/2) = 615 degrees. similarly, the valve is at .050" or higher from degree (470)+/-(230/2), or 355 and 585 degrees.

a lsa of 112 means that the exhaust lobe center is 112*2 degrees before the intake lobe center.

so with a lsa of 112, our exhaust valve is fully open (the exhaust lobe center) at 470-(112*2) = 246 degrees. doing the same calcs as above, we have open/close at 101 and 391, and at .050" the open/close events are 131 and 361 degrees.

now notice that the exhaust closes at 391, and the intake opens at 325. so both valves are open for 391-325 = 66 degrees. this is the total overlap. similarly, at .050" there is an overlap of 6 degrees. in this case, i would probably want the fuel to start injecting when the exhaust valve closes, or at about degree 390.

now we are almost there ... for a given load and rpm, we can figure out how much ms of injector we need, and how many degrees that ms needs. now all we have to do is tie that to the cam events for our cam and we can fill in the table with values that should be fairly reasonable.

to finish off our example, with the 410ci engine and 42# injectors, 50% load at 3000 rpm with our cam as above, the calculation for that cell would be ...

the needed injector pw would be: 11.05 * .50 + .05 = 5.595 ms
the crank rotation for 5.595 ms at 3000 rpm would be: 3000 *.006 * 5.595 = 101 degrees (rounded)
if the pw starts when the exhaust valve closes ...
the injector fires from degree 390 thru 491 (390+101)

so 491 should be a fairly reasonable value for that cell.

Injector Duty cycle percentage is the amount of time the injector is ON vs OFF for all four strokes of a cylinder. The amount of time to complete a cycle (i.e. 4 strokes) is directly related to the RPMs. To get the complete cycle time follow this formula:

Complete Cycle Time in milliseconds = 60 * 1000 * 2 / RPMs
60 converts minutes to seconds
1000 converts seconds to milliseconds
2 is in there because there are 2 revolutions in 1 complete cycle

So at 6000RPMs, a cycle takes 20ms.

So you take the time an injector is open (in ms) and divide it by the time it takes to complete a cycle (in ms). This gives you your Injector Duty Cycle in Percents.

So if you are seeing 17ms@6000RPMs, that would be 85% Duty cycle.

update ...

i am actually very surprised at how much of a difference setting the injector timing has made

my idle is now very steady at about 800. before that, it would surge and hunt like crazy, often dieing ... not only at startup, but even when warm.

and my gas mileage is much better.

bottom line ... the engine runs much better now than before

you guys with cams with big overlaps, i highly recommend looking at your injector timing values


Ahhh....just found the original thread/source.

http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11334&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=injector+timing&start=0

[joecar]

I have to say them Ford people have their ducks in a row.

[joecar]

Ah, gotcha. can't you just raise the entire CL enable temp table to something like 140*c that will never be reached, then you 'shouldn't' enter CL at all. thats what I've been doing, but keeping b3647 at 14.68Don't forget that COS3/COS5 have a special feature:

In OL, if any B3647 cells contain stoich (as defined by B3601), then the PCM will trim to stoich using STFT's when in those cells.

[joecar]

Howard,

Your post brings up a questions I have rolling around in my mind for some time:

B3702 Injector Timing:
a. what physical event is these timing values relative to...?
b. wouldn't the event of a. be independent of camshaft used...?
c. wouldn't it's values mean time (in ms) before that physical event...?
d. why can't there be negative values...?

[Aloicious]

Don't forget that COS3/COS5 have a special feature:

In OL, if any B3647 cells contain stoich (as defined by B3601), then the PCM will trim to stoich using STFT's when in those cells.

:doh2: damn, I was not doing that on my autoVE, that may be part of the issue...no work or school today/tonight, so its tuning night.

on another note, I've been in CLMAF and using the LTFT to tune the B3701, and it seems to be doing well, the lean/rich issues aren't totally gone, they're a little better, but still there, however, just using the B3701, I've got the LTFT from -15 to -20 up to around 0 to -2....also found one of my O2 sensors is lazy (reads like -7 when the other is at -1, and like -25 when the other is -12.)

Howard, thats some excellent info, I've still gotta really digest it and try to see whats going on...but how would we go about using that spreadsheet to alter B3702 - injector timing?

[hquick]

Here's some info a Ford Lightning guy just gave me.

[joecar]

Howard, thanks... :cheers: