EFI live = Incomplete tuning package!!!!

[NASABlue]

I'm pretty fed up with the whole EFI live tuning and innovate wideband install.

Why can't efi live tune off the existing 02's?

Why dont they supply the whole package of wo2 sensor if you can't tune without one?

Now I'm left to integrate 2 different systems to eachother, innovate and efi live.
I have to learn the adjustemnts for 2 seperate systems, lambdas and adjusting the wo2 and downloading the program onto my computer. THat's just to get Wo2 working.

Then I would have to learn the EFI live program and how to get it to recognize the w02?!?!?!?!?!?!

THen I would actually have to figure out what adjustments to actually make to my Pcm and

Then I would have to figure out how to do that through EFI live!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I finished my head cam clutch install 3 weeks ago and I havn't been able to finish the tuning. i CANT EVEN GET THE WIDEBAND HOOKED UP!!!!!!!!

I'm being held hostage because of a crap package and no good instructions.

This is BS!!!

Where is the comprehensive tuning guide and installation overview for a 97 corvette?

The .bin file repository is a fing joke. Of all the cars and and different cams and set ups and you only list a handfull of 00+ vettes at best!??!?!?!?

[Kevin Doe]

I had an entire post written up answering like every one of your questions then realized it was not necessary. If you don't want to learn how to tune, then take it to somene who will tune if for you. You'll find that tuning is alwasy a learning process. If you don't like learning, this is not for you.

[Aint Skeered]

can you link me to that post, I am wanting to learn but cant figure out how to install the lm1

[Kevin Doe]

can you link me to that post, I am wanting to learn but cant figure out how to install the lm1

Sorry, I meant I typed it up, then deleted it and replaced it with the reply above.

[Aint Skeered]

ok. I am chasing my tale without the lm1 hooked to the v2. my lm1 shows good air fue ratios but my ltft's are at avg. 8/10 %

[Aint Skeered]

for the original poster, dude this stuff is fun to learn but if you dont want to learn then I would sell the kit and pay some one. lots of helpfull people on this sight and very good equipment. Find one better and let me know. good luck with that though

[Kevin Doe]

Aint Skeered,

There is a turorial called "LC-1 Installation Tutorial"

Find it in the Scan Tool under Help -> Tutorials -> LC-1 Installation Tutorial

[macca_779]

Who said you can't tune off the existing O2 Sensors. Disable LTFT, log STFT Map (its already built for you in the scan tool), force closed loop with the Bidirectional Controls. Then apply the data to VE. It's pretty difficult to do high RPM stuff like this but all your cruising cells are easy.

This is still no substitute for tuning with a WB. I'm just illustrating that EFI LIVE can do it off the NB's.

[NASABlue]

I have spent 3 weekends dedicated to this process (7 total for the head cam clutch flycutting). I'm trying to get my 97 corvette mn6 to the point where it will idle and maybe make it a trip around the block. I dont ask for much but a little progress to give me a taste. Just a Taste!

I thought this would be fun as well, I want to learn, but how long does it take. so far I have 40 houres in on trying to just get my arms around the entire scope. Every time I do something there's something I missed. The heads cam clutch was much easier. THis is like trying to discover mars with the mayflower.... uncharted ground apparently.

IE I installed the wo2, but not in the location of the lg's 2'd o2 in one that I painstaikenly put behind the x pipe. then bolted everything back up only to realize the free air calibration required it to be un installed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then I read further about needing a heat sink for it.

Then downloading the innovate program and the adjustemnts that have to be made for the lambda vs the whatever!!!!

THsn there isn't even anything to tell me how to integrate the efi live and the innovate. which wire goes in whic 2 or 3 pinned connection

I wish I could have just stuck this thing in my tail pipe and gotten to work.

[NASABlue]

Aint Skeered,

There is a turorial called "LC-1 Installation Tutorial"

Find it in the Scan Tool under Help -> Tutorials -> LC-1 Installation Tutorial


Do you have any sound with those tutorials other than clicking noises. No one explains what they are doing or why and what it will effect.

[NASABlue]

Who said you can't tune off the existing O2 Sensors. Disable LTFT, log STFT Map (its already built for you in the scan tool), force closed loop with the Bidirectional Controls. Then apply the data to VE. It's pretty difficult to do high RPM stuff like this but all your cruising cells are easy.

This is still no substitute for tuning with a WB. I'm just illustrating that EFI LIVE can do it off the NB's.

The who's and what's? where is it built for me in the scan tool?

Is there an acronym definition list. I feel like I'm working for the FAA here.

how do you force a closed loop with bidirectional controls? What are bidirectionl controls and where are they?

what's VE?

Acronym list anyone?

[Kevin Doe]

Do you have any sound with those tutorials other than clicking noises. No one explains what they are doing or why and what it will effect.

What are you tlaking about. The tutorial I referenced is a .pdf file. You read it. If you are hearing clicking noises it must be in your head. LOL. Not the tutorials on the Innovate site (which I assume you're talking about), I'm talkinga bout the ones in the scan tool, under the path I gave.

[NASABlue]

there's a PDF other than the owners manual for innovate?

I'm hearing ticking in my head.... clicking is on the efil live tutorials that are hyper quick and unexplanitory....of course unless there's som hidden pdf file that is the narrative.

I'm sorry I didn't get any link.

[Kevin Doe]

Scan Took Meun -> Help -> Tutorials -> LC-1 Installation Tutorial.pdf

[Beer99C5]

Open your Scan tool, then click help (top menu Bar) and then click tutorials.

[Dale]

I have had this program about 7 months now. I still cant afford a wideband O2. Ive tuned with stock ones. Now is it as accurate or correct as one with them? Highly doubtful. But its gotten me to a very drivable condition.

Disable LTFT? Didnt know I could do that. Must find out how.

[Chevy366]

Or here : http://www.efilive.com/download.aspx
Tutorials Interactive and Tutorials PDF

[joecar]

NASABlue,

Well... I don't know what to say... I see your first post was 3 hours ago... I didn't see you post any questions 3 weekends ago...

There's a lot of reading material all over the place (here and other forums), and there are many people here who are willing to help you... but don't turn them off by expecting it all to be handed to you.

We all started from zero, asked questions, tried what was suggested, read and read and read, and tried and tried and tried... after all, this is hot-rodding, a DIY art... there's people here who started with less than what you have and have come very far... :cheers:

I hope you're not too upset [written word does lose colour]... (this is my best dead-pan business-like tone after a night of poor sleep).

I hope it all goes good for you regardless of which way you go... :cheers:


Regards
Joe
:)

[joecar]

And the scantool has a user manual pdf which explains how to use bidi controls.

And the tunetool also has a user manual.

And as mentioned, there are various tutorials right under your fingertips.

And knowledgeable people who would help you if you had asked.

[SSpdDmon]

NASA Blue,

You seem to like analogies....

You're ranting is the equivalent of an 8-year-old playing his first year of little league and saying, "I've played 3 games already and those f**kers at the New York Yankees still won't let me on the team!"

I'm not trying to be a dick - but you have to realize that a learning curve exists for this process. For some, that curve is steeper than others. If you were this anxious to get your car running, your money would have been better spent with a local shop capable of tuning your car.

If you decide you would like to try to continue tuning your car yourself, sum up a little patience and ask for help when you get stuck. Maybe make a post with a list of mods, post up your stock tune, and where you're at now.?.?.? Then, we can get a glimpse of what you're doing right, wrong, or whatever. If you're having trouble getting the WBO2 to work, post up your questions and someone will be happy to chime in. Please try to avoid the rants and "I'm fed up with..." posts because they solve nothing.

[TAQuickness]

Welcome to the forum NASABlue.

As with anything new, or new to you, there will be a learning curve associated with it. In this case, you are faced with learning to tune and learning to use the tools to tune. Getting started can be quite overwhelming at times.

Rather than "when all else fails, RTFM", I would highly recommend you make the time to read thru the Scan and Tune tool manuals and tutorials to help you become more familiar with your new tools. Interactive tutorials are available at www.efilive.com (http://www.efilive.com).

I would also suggest that as you work your way thru becoming familiar with your tools that you post and search the forum for any questions you may have. There are litterally hundreds of folks here that are more than willing to help you along the way. All that anyone asks of you is to be curtious and when the time is right, help the next guy along.

Just remember, TAKE YOUR TIME, read, ask questions, read, ask questions, read, ask questions, take a baby step, then read, and ask more questions.

They didn't create EFI over night and no one ever learned to tune overnight.

[NASABlue]

Thanks for the kind words guys.....

I know how I sound, I'm very aware of the 8 yr old temper tantrum syndrome, but we're here talking aren't we?

I want to learn this badly, but no one presented the other side of the coin when I was looking to purchase efi live and I could have never understood the frustration associated with completing the head cam clutch and not being able to drive it. No one said expect to take 4 times as long tuning the car as installing the parts. That doesn't even make sense.

I'm the first to try to help and hopefully I will be in your shose helping someone in my shoes over time. But you guys have to understand how it feels to have a friend (who one upped me by getting a z06 to my 97) goto a shop and get headers vararam cornorweight and tune in one day after he found out what I was doing then want to come over to ask why my 97 isn't running yet and to listen to how good his sounds........ Especially when I was sold on EFI live as a plug an chug solution. Just like the headers that "drop right in".

I don't expect it all to be "given" to me and that's why I didn't ask for help 3 weeks ago, because I was trying to read everything, but the more I read, the more that unravled that I needed and didn't know.

My car is a 97 mn6, headers, BBK intake& 80 mm tb, k&N FIRPK, lingenfelter edlebrock heads, 228/232 cam on a 111 +2, lg pro catless, asp pulley, no ac, light weight twin disc clutch and flywheel.

I just want to be able to drive it a couple of miles after all this work and 2 monts of living under the car in my spare time. It'll just lite my fire a little again..... to give me a little more patience.

[NASABlue]

what put me over the top was installing the wo2 and bolting the exhaust all back up and then finding out I have to take it all back out to calibrate it and apparently make a heat shield.

I was OK up untill this point, but I just don't have it in me to take it all apart again. I havn't run the car in 2 weeks and I had the x pipe off for 48 hrs so I dont think the calibration will be too off, but what a PITA. It's almost as bad as pinching the oil pump o ring.

[TAQuickness]

You don't have to take it all apart to do the free air calibration. Per the LC1 (at lease the version I have) if you let the car sit overnight, the exhuast pipes should be purged enough to perform the free air with out removing the sensor.

Personally, I let my bird sit for 24 hours, then perform the free air while the sensor is in the pipe.

[TAQuickness]

On the bright side, think of all the $$$ you saved on labor

[ScarabEpic22]

Welcome NASABlue, I cant help you tune your car as Ive never dealt with a LSx engine before. However I have put in over 2 years of testing and still dont have my tune nailed down properly. Most of that is that I had school and everything to deal with, plus EFILive was still making new tables for my engine. That said, Im buying a WBO2 here in a few days/weeks and this summer I will finally get my engine dialed in properly. I know the feeling of "the more you read the more confused you get", heck I dont even know how to mess with some parts of my tune yet.

Not to try and aggravate you further, but you know the 97 PCMs are really limited in their tuning ability. 99+ LS1 PCMs are much better and you can run a Custom Operating System as well. I wouldnt worry about it now, get your ride running first then do a PCM swap maybe in like December. :D

Good luck man, if you need help let me/us know and we can try to point you in the right direction!

[joecar]

You read a bunch of stuff... then that 's good, and like you said, we're talking. :cheers:

You don't really need a heat shield for the LC-1, and you could let the car sit overnite and do the free air cal in the morning, or as TAQ said 24 hours; wet/shop vac may help to purge out the exhaust (apply the vac to one exhaust tip while plugging the other tips with rags).

LC-1 can be a bit frustrating to get sorted out, but once you get it grounded properly and working, AutoVE or AutoMAF tuning should go pretty good.

Cheers,
Joe
:cheers:

[NASABlue]

:crash:

Thanks for the heads up on the 97 pcm, I'm aware of it's limitations, that's why I dont get why I cant figure it out I'm apparently limited too, we should get along like pees and carrots.......

If I cant figure out the tuning on a limited one I'll really be screwed on the complex one...... hell lets be honest I keep screwing up the install.....

I just spoke w/ my friend w/ the z06, now w/ american racing headers, ported t/b and vararam.....

He apparently has a lingenfelter computer that has extra ram or memory and recalculates variables at a much higher rate and apparently a VERY well know tuner only lost hp vs it and then proceeded to copy it for his base tune.

...He is driving back from NJ now and was telling me he thinks he can chirp 4th........

Guess I have to do work.....

Thanks again for the encouragement!

[TAQuickness]

Do it for you. The results are much more rewarding.

[NASABlue]

awesome!

I had the whole rear exhaust off for 48 hrs. All the condensation dripped out (all over me) when I first disassembled it.

With the heat of the weld on the pipe drawing fresh air in and up through the bung as it cooled (see thermodynamics) while it was off the car and since it sat for 24 hrs after this, I'm comfortable w/ calibrating it as is

To know I have don't have to f withthe lg pros again is awesome. THey are great headers but there's a compromise for those long primaries.

[SSpdDmon]

Can you post up a copy of your factory and current tune?

[Chevy366]

V2 or V1 ?
Innovate is not real precise in their explanation of how to install the LC-1 , but make sure and ground to engine block with two lugs or bolts same area .
V1 requires using LM Programmer to set up the Analog inputs for the V1 .
V2 can now do Digital .

[hymey]

Its not that hard. Firstly though, I would of learnt how to tune a stock engine first.Not a cam engine. Hooking up the wideband is the easy part.

You will need the latest firmware and digital cable to plug the innovate to the V2.

But since you are a newby to tuning, I would take the car and get it dynotuned, then learn the process of tuning with efilive slowly, as a lot of patience is required.:anitoof:

[danf1000]

I agree with the initial concept here. Serious assistance on the learning process simply does not exist. Pieces of the puzzle do. Not easy with this tuner software to start from nothing and finally get tuned results. And when this happens, it is only initiative that accomplishes.

[5.7ute]

I agree with the initial concept here. Serious assistance on the learning process simply does not exist. Pieces of the puzzle do. Not easy with this tuner software to start from nothing and finally get tuned results. And when this happens, it is only initiative that accomplishes.

I dont know it can get any easier. We have software that is miles ahead of the rest. Tutorials that once followed will get you up & running safely. And not to forget some of the most knowledgeable & helpful people on this forum.
Read, search & ask questions like the rest of us have & eventually it will all fall into place.
If this doesnt work you can always do the course at efi university.

[Garry]

Every time I do something there's something I missed. The heads cam clutch was much easier.
[..]
IE I installed the wo2, but not in the location of the lg's 2'd o2 in one that I painstaikenly put behind the x pipe. then bolted everything back up only to realize the free air calibration required it to be un installed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope I don't sound like an @ss, but do you know that test that starts with the words: "Read the complete instructions"?

Seems to me like you're going at it a page at a time ...

E.g., as for the free air calibration - I think somewhere either in the LC1/LM1 docs or the EFI docs, there's something saying that if the car had been standing for like a day or so without having been run, you can do the FAC, as the gases in the exhaust have been replaced by regular air ... so no, it isn't necessary to unplug the WBO2 again ...

So, my suggestion - to anybody: Instead of spending time doing stuff over, spend time reading docs and FAQs, make a list of "todo's", then go to your car ... that's the way I did ... now, I'm no car mechanic, but I was able to install the LC1 on my Firehawk beginning to end in about 3-4 hours, resulting in a nicely working WBO2, without any problems ... just following the EFILive-supplied LC-1 install instructions ... and that includes the required PIDs on EFILive V1, too ...

[Gelf VXR]

I bought EFIlive last summer, I installed dual LC-1's, it took me six months to figure out AutoVE, it was fustrating at times, but on the whole an enjoyable and satisfying experience.There are knowledgable people on here willing to help, not forgetting the EFIlive support.

Keen to pass on what i had learn't, i produced an AutoVE guide for the E40 LS2

[ssvolvo]

NASABlue,
I didn't dare post yesterday. You were WILD and I knew with time you'd calm down!


I've worked on vehicles my entire life. My parents have pictures of me taking engines apart at 6 years old. I can fix about anything mechanically. Wife and I run a shop for import cars, mostly VW/Volvo/Audi.
I know fuel injection, carbs inside out. With that said, I offer you this. The learning curve for this software has been extremely slow for me. I've had this system over a year, I even travelled 4 hours and took the EFI university day course for the software. It was awesome but for the most part went over my head because I hadn't played with it enough before I took the training. Start slowly and read, read, read, google, research,yada yada yada.
I spent 20 hours last weekend fooling around doing autove and it's finally coming to me. I know what the engine needs but just can't figure out the software.
Be patient my friend as it will come.
As far as widebands go I wouldn't worry much about the heat shield. I've NEVER seen one factory installed on a VW, AUDI, or SUBARU that ALL use the same wide band sensor from Bosch. What I HAVE noticed about the LM1, LC1 is that it is not as bulletproof as the FJO wide band. I had another Volvo with a smallblock and Holley Commander 950 for 6 years with the FJO WBO2 and NEVER had a single problem or calibration issue with it. I realize the NTK sensor is much more money but it is well worth the cost. I knew this calibration thing would be an issue so made the install so it could be removed easily.
At our shop we change a fair amount of Bosch wide band 02s for emissions, drivability issues. HAVE NOT SEEN A SINGLE HONDA WIDE BAND NTK O2 (like the FJO system)GO BAD YET.


Oh and Gelf. Nice job on the tutorial. Without it I was headed for a tuner, ON THE TRAILER! Because my mix and match of parts wouldn't run. A HUGE part of EFIlive's success is due to guys like you and others who take the time from their busy life and post tutorials, spreadsheets, and links that make tuning much easier for guys like me who have enough trouble just opening an email!:banana:

[hquick]

Man...the guys on this forum are just too nice.
If you had come onto any other forum I know of speaking that way you would have been told to 'go away' (but maybe in more colourful terms).
I've been using EFILive for around 2 years now...and after a quick count just a minute ago.....Just in V7.5 (so not counting when previously using V 7.0) I have run 735 logs!
And....I'm still not happy with my tune!
Steep..STEEP learnig curve..but worth it...AND you won't find better than the guys on here OR the owners/programmers of the software!

[Dale]

I've been using EFILive for around 2 years now...and after a quick count just a minute ago.....Just in V7.5 (so not counting when previously using V 7.0) I have run 735 logs!


7 months, maybe 8 now. I just got my idle fixed.

100+ flashes. 93 logs.

[emarkay]

Remember, us old timers didn't figure out Q-Jet tuning overnight. You will be rewarded with as much info as the most brainy 4 year-degreed GM Powertrain tech if you take it slow, double check, test and verify, and take your time - and ask a question instead of guessing.

EFILive - It's NOT an overnight sensation - it's like a 9 1/2 Weeks encounter... The power, the control, the thrill of it all; it'll make you sweat, you'll be sore for a day, and the memories will last a lifetime.

(Oh yea, I'm single again...) ;)

Good Luck -and, "NASA Blue" - any ties to the Space Agency?

[Aint Skeered]

Hah, I have been doing the efi tuning for a year now and am still trying to figure out how to hook up my lm1 to my efi live.

it is fun but can be very nerve racking at times. However, my car Idles better then it ever has when a certain PRO TUNER was doing my tune.

My car drives great but with out doing auto ve I am trying to tune based off of what my ltft's are telling me. Right or wrong, its getting me down the road in a good driveing car.

[oztracktuning]

If you decided you wanted to design a LS7 engine its not going to be easy. Its sounds like you have jumped in over your depth. Thats why it costs so much money for cars to be tuned well by people with lots of experience.

[NASABlue]

OMG!

I'm going to try to get to gether w/ a tuner.


7 months, maybe 8 now. I just got my idle fixed.

100+ flashes. 93 logs.

[Garry]

I just drove my car back home from the motor rebuild/upgrade - admitted, the stock setup was already COS#5 SD tuned (which I did myself), but after the 2 1/2 hour drive home, most of the regular driving BENs are nicely set ... idle tune shouldn't be too much ...
Once you got your WBO2 in the car and running, the AutoVE HowTo is pretty much all you need to get your car running well ... just follow the HowTo step by step, it's really not that hard to do ...

[NASABlue]

I'm doing better here, there are some discrepancies between the innovate downloaded instructions and the efi live lc1 install guide.

What wire should connect to the middle EFI "pin out"? I have the yellow to the exterior of the tri terminal, but the instructions call for a "Signal Ground" to the center terminal. Further it clairifies the white and green.

Now I dont have a green, but I do have a blue and white. But the EFI live instructions say to connect the blue system ground seperate from the signal ground. But the blue is the heater ground and the Innovate say to ground the white and blue together.

SO I've laid everything out all over my hood and am creating a comprehensive schematic for grounds, positives, gauges, toggles, led, efi live, and LC-1 (did I forget anything?).



I have a Efi V1 for those who have asked.

[joecar]

Take some pics and post here... and any diagrams you draw.

With your LC-1 do this first:
- figure out what you want to drive with it (analog AFR, digital AFR, NBO2, AFR gauge, status LED...);
- draw a diagram of how you're going to connect/power it (label wire colors/names);
- bench test it: connect it up outside vehicle and power it up, do heater cal, free air cal, check that status LED goes solid, measure with voltmeter/EFILive, program flat voltages (e.g. 1V and 4V) and verify they output, check AFR with butane/propane... make sure everything works before installing in car.

[Beer99C5]

Here is my total system diagram


May help may not.

http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Corvette/Nitrous%20Diagram.jpg

[joecar]

Beer, you rule...:cheers:

[TFZ_Z06]

Then I would have to learn the EFI live program and how to get it to recognize the w02?!?!?!?!?!?!

THen I would actually have to figure out what adjustments to actually make to my Pcm and

Then I would have to figure out how to do that through EFI live!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


For some of us, we were just glad when ANY product was available to tune our rides. I would say we are lucky that software this good is avail. Also, part of the FUN is learning how to use the software to make your ride fast.
Hang in there--you'll figure it out.

[Beer99C5]

Beer, you rule...:cheers:

I remember a couple years ago, you were helping me with my LC-1 install as well :D

[NASABlue]

wow thanks for the diagram Mr. Beer

at this point I'm trying to clairify the center pin connection for the v1 efi live. The EFI LC1 instructions say a signal ground is the green and white.

so do they mean the blue and white "system ground"?

[Beer99C5]

Blue green and white are the grounds.

From the LC-1 manual
The BLUE and WHITE wires should all be grounded to the same ground source.

Although my diagram does not reflect that, they are in fact soldered together and grounded to the same spot, the green wire I grounded at different location.

[1964Vette]

Yes, with persistance, most can sort things out and make EFILive work for their applications. I've had EFILive as a scanner before there was a tuning package and it has met my needs very well although I'm still learning. It can't be said enough, read all of the documentation. That includes any other relevant documents. Also open a tuning file and familiarize yourself with the tuning catagories and PID definitions.

However, the term "learning curve" is somewhat of a misnomer. What I found frustrating was not the learning but the collecting of all the bits a pieces of information scattered all over the place. But what it is, is what it is.

The last criticism I would make has to do with the PCM operating system or more correctly the knowledge base of how it works. The is not a slam of those that worked long and hard to understand it, but of those that are sitting on the editor/compiler for Modulo II which I understand was the development software that GM used. The majority of the information was obtained by trial and error. Empirical data has limitations as shown in comments such as: I think so, I'm pretty sure, maybe. My confidence level gets lowered somewhat when I hear things like that. I wan't to say again don't take this as a strong criticism of the current knowledge base but it would certainly be a better way to have flow charts directly linked to the reverse engineering of GM's operating system. I've never seen anything in the public domain or even a little help in resolving some issues. I'm not a programmer nor do I wan't to be but I certainly would like to look at the source code. One additional comment Modulo II, I understand, is very simular to an old software called Pascal.

I didn't know these things before I started to get interested in doing my own tuning and maybe they will help others that are on the line.

Thanks

LEC

[TAQuickness]

Jimmy - Next time you're in Houston I'm going to put you to work documenting my bird! Nice work!

[NASABlue]

I don't have a green wire. That's what's confusing me.

[Beer99C5]

Jimmy - Next time you're in Houston I'm going to put you to work documenting my bird! Nice work!

I am coming Wednesday, arrive 830 PM :D
I am going to see if I can stay a couple days over
Here is where I am staying
HOUSTON GEO BUSH OUT-15MAY CORP ID-362154
SHERATON HOTELS 1 NIGHT
FOUR POINTS HOU MEM 1 ROOM
10655 KATY FREEWAY FREE INTERNET-BOTTLED WATER: L
HOUSTON TX 77024

[NASABlue]

Is it logical to assume that because I do not have a green wire but do have a white wire That the middle pin just goes with the white wire ground?

One set of instructions say connect it to the white and green (which I dont have). But I do have a white (system ground) and blue (heater ground) wire which are supposed grounded together.

Therefore it is logical to wire the middle to the white wire's ground.

And I will ground the black calibration wire else where.

Which is what I'm going to do now.

Agreed with the quilted together information gathering is TEDIOUS. It seems like rather than offering a "System" approach that is easy to hook up and learn, it is more of a badge of honor to blutten your way through.

I would further add the material available looks a bit dated and that may be why it seems to conflict between various sets of instructions. Thus far the innovative instructions have been the most accurate.

Is EFI live on the same path as ls1 edit and that's why everyone seems to be going to a more relivent and user friendly HP tuners?

[Beer99C5]

Are you using the innovate instruction set?

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LC-1_Manual.pdf

[NASABlue]

yes those are the instructions I used and find most relivent to the wires and colors of the LC-1. I think I got the middle pin out is to the system ground reguardless of color.

Why not just call it the ground. Black goes to ground, blue goes to ground and white goes to ground. Green goes to ground to if you got one. The only one on a different ground would be the black calibration wire, though I don't nesc read that anywhere.

On beer's diagram, I see the white wire grounds out independantly of the ground bus, or it appears that way.

The one variation I used was the EFI instructions recommended yellow to the analogue in on the EFI live tool and the brown wire to the gauge.

is that right?

[Garry]

Watch out with "just calling it ground" ... IIRC, it does want/require you to use two separate grounding places (even though in theory there shouldn't be any difference), otherwise you will have trouble with the data it delivers ...

[Beer99C5]

Black goes to ground, blue goes to ground and white goes to ground. Green goes to ground to if you got one. The only one on a different ground would be the black calibration wire, though I don't nesc read that anywhere.

On beer's diagram, I see the white wire grounds out independantly of the ground bus, or it appears that way.

The one variation I used was the EFI instructions recommended yellow to the analogue in on the EFI live tool and the brown wire to the gauge.

is that right?

You can use the analog outputs as you feel necessary, Yellow or brown, you just need to ensure you program the outputs correctly.

The black is the cal button, yes, it goes to ground, however, it also provides troubleshooting ability and calibrating ability.

Here is the LED and Cal Button setup in my panel.

http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Corvette/Nov07panel.jpg

[NASABlue]

wow that's a nice install, I'm putting my AFR gauge in that location as I'm not running the nos.

So I think I have the wiring ? aswered then

Black calibration goes to a different ground location, but the rest can go an the same ground bus.

Do you concur?

[Beer99C5]

Yes

Here is a single gauge variation for the C-5 :D No cutting required of the console.

http://www.retrorelics.net/jim/Boards/Panels/C5_ZO6/singlegauge.jpg

[NASABlue]

very nice, I have mine mounted already. I drilled a hole next to the screw mounting hole and one int eh bottom of the ash tray for the mounting posts of the gaure to push through. It fits like a glove (of course).

I'll take some picts after I finish all the connections. I will be crimping for now......

Speaking of the gauge mounting posts, those don't need to be connectd to anything wire wise do they. I've definately installed gauges that have been this style that have those brass looking mounting posts......:angel_innocent:

May be I'm too anal for this line of work...... I just hate rework....:doh2:

Thanks and happy mother's day from another of your efi live children.....

[NASABlue]

check out my attached schematic and tune as left from my tune after the lg pro header install, bbk mani, and 1.8 rockers in the att bin file. I'm always open to recommendations.

I got 369 hp and 379 ft of tq and the tuner couldn't get any more out before the cam


Thought I could get this out there for examination as compaired to the addition of 228/232 .622/.630 111 +2 cam, lingenfelter edlebrock 202cc's (afr 205 equiv) lt wt pulley and clutch w/ 8.7 dcr.:angel_innocent:

So those are the mods to which I need to adjust.

I do have 42 # injectors I could easily put on if we have some trim settings... I have the spread sheets but I figured one thing at a time......

[joecar]

NASABlue,

I don't remember, do you have a FlashScan V1 or V2...?

The LC-1 is very simple:
- red -> switched/fused battery,
- blue-> battery ground,
- brown -> FlashScan ADn+ input (signal),
- white or green -> FlashScan ADn- input (signal return/ground),
- black -> pushbutton/LED anode,

The white wire may or may not need to be connected to battery ground...
try it either way and see (bench test before you install)...

The green wire was the signal return, but the white wire does the same thing...
If you have a metal braid wire (not the foil sheath), then this is signal return also...
but white also serves this purpose.

If you use yellow to drive the NBO2 input to the PCM, then you have to do this:
- yellow -> NBO2 signal high,
- white -> NBO2 signal low.


I can't read your diagram... :nixweiss: ...draw it like you was going to give it to someone to troubleshoot a problem. :cheers:

Cheers,
Joe
:cheers:

[joecar]

Is it logical to assume that because I do not have a green wire but do have a white wire That the middle pin just goes with the white wire ground?

One set of instructions say connect it to the white and green (which I dont have). But I do have a white (system ground) and blue (heater ground) wire which are supposed grounded together.

Therefore it is logical to wire the middle to the white wire's ground.

And I will ground the black calibration wire else where.

Which is what I'm going to do now.

Agreed with the quilted together information gathering is TEDIOUS. It seems like rather than offering a "System" approach that is easy to hook up and learn, it is more of a badge of honor to blutten your way through.

I would further add the material available looks a bit dated and that may be why it seems to conflict between various sets of instructions. Thus far the innovative instructions have been the most accurate.

Is EFI live on the same path as ls1 edit and that's why everyone seems to be going to a more relivent and user friendly HP tuners?Yep, you got that white wire figured out...

Ground the black wire thru the pushbutton/LED is what I hope you mean...

[business_like_tone=on]

Bro, if you ever modded your car you know that's how it is...
nothing ever falls into place unless you first research it...
and, "some parts may require filing, drilling, or machining"...
It's got nothing to do with honor, but it has everything to do with learning...
when you install a head (which you had milled to increase CR), you learn how to put the gasket on right and how to check for correct rocker geometry... it doesn't all just fall together, it requires effort... and even then it may not work right so you have to redo it.

Yes, some of the material may be dated (and other of it is timeless), I agree...
we're looking for volunteers to update the various instructions...
I don't totally agree with the Innovate instructions in regards to system/signal ground (ground loops), and even Innovate doesn't agree with their own instructions...

If you think HPT is more user friendly and more relevant, then why are you here...?
If you got into bed with HPT, would you be telling them the same thing...?
The grass is always greener in someone else's backyard... ;)

In here do you see anyone treating you bad [after you come in here shooting off, and without doing your homework]...?
If you go to school/college/whatever, the "knowledge" is not handed out... but rather the student has to learn it (by doing the work, homework, research, papers, lab classes, etc), and the learning path always has it ups/downs... [the downs are the best lessons I ever learned].

[business_like_tone=off]

Are you having fun yet... :D

Cheers,
Joe
:cheers:

[405HP_Z06]

[business_like_tone=on]...... we're looking for volunteers to update the various instructions...

I'm game, where do I start? What's the change control process?




If you think HPT is more user friendly and more relevant, then why are you here...?
If you got into bed with HPT, would you be telling them the same thing...?
The grass is always greener in someone else's backyard... ;)

Speaking from experience, EFILive is a better tool to work with than HPT. I have both and find I can do things in EFIL that I can't do in HPT. The one thing I'm still trying to get used to is the transposed columns/rows in EFIL v. HPT. It just seems more logical the way they are layed out in HPT.


In here do you see anyone treating you bad [after you come in here shooting off, and without doing your homework]...?
If you go to school/college/whatever, the "knowledge" is not handed out... but rather the student has to learn it (by doing the work, homework, research, papers, lab classes, etc), and the learning path always has it ups/downs... [the downs are the best lessons I ever learned].

[business_like_tone=off]


From the outside looking in, everyone has been very cordial throughout this discussion. Tuning is difficult, no two ways about it. The ever elusive PCM map and silver bullet tuning checklist doesn't exist, yet.

I've found that wading through all of the content for the relevant topics that affects one at any point in time is difficult.




Are you having fun yet... :D

Cheers,
Joe
:cheers:

:rotflmao: between brief moments of :ranting:

[joecar]

Hey, life (tuning) is a bumpy road... ;)

Cheers
Joe
:cheers:

[NASABlue]

Understood Joe,

Thanks for your time and response.....

I'm here because, well I was sold on EFI live. I stick with things for better or worse, and at this point why start over at sq 1 W/ HP T?

I don't mean to be an ass, you guys are really trying to help and I'm really trying to learn. When I do get all the i's dotted and t's crossed I'm going to do a write up the way only an anal engineer could do and make it a web page w/ picts of my entire build right from removing the radiator, fabbing the motor mounts (I'm not paying $300 for mounts when I can make it from home depot for $10, of course I already had the welder), to the fly cutting the pistons, head, cam, oilpump o ring (PUT THE O RING ON THE PICK UP TUBE..... LIKE A CONDOM), Clutch, and efi live & innovate wireing and tuning.....

I am down to the last Item here.....

Again I appreciate your and everyone's help, and, in return, I will help as much as I can.

:thankyou2:

[NASABlue]

hey

on the positive wire, Billdog on the CF suggested that I hook up the positive wire to the fuel relay because it is switched on only when the engine is running vs when the ignition switch is turned but the engine isn't running.

He further explained this keeps the WO2 from burning up if I were ever to leave the ignition on, but not have the car running.

This sounds like a winner of an Idea to me but it's the first I've herd or read of it.

Any confirmation or comment is welcome as this is the avenue I plan on pursuing at this time.

[joecar]

hey

on the positive wire, Billdog on the CF suggested that I hook up the positive wire to the fuel relay because it is switched on only when the engine is running vs when the ignition switch is turned but the engine isn't running.

He further explained this keeps the WO2 from burning up if I were ever to leave the ignition on, but not have the car running.

This sounds like a winner of an Idea to me but it's the first I've herd or read of it.

Any confirmation or comment is welcome as this is the avenue I plan on pursuing at this time.That might be a good idea... just make sure the fuse can handle the sum of the currents.

[joecar]

Understood Joe,

Thanks for your time and response.....

I'm here because, well I was sold on EFI live. I stick with things for better or worse, and at this point why start over at sq 1 W/ HP T?

I don't mean to be an ass, you guys are really trying to help and I'm really trying to learn. When I do get all the i's dotted and t's crossed I'm going to do a write up the way only an anal engineer could do and make it a web page w/ picts of my entire build right from removing the radiator, fabbing the motor mounts (I'm not paying $300 for mounts when I can make it from home depot for $10, of course I already had the welder), to the fly cutting the pistons, head, cam, oilpump o ring (PUT THE O RING ON THE PICK UP TUBE..... LIKE A CONDOM), Clutch, and efi live & innovate wireing and tuning.....

I am down to the last Item here.....

Again I appreciate your and everyone's help, and, in return, I will help as much as I can.

:thankyou2:I'm an engineer too...

I'd like to see your pics.

:cheers:

[dfe1]

This has to be a first-- two engineers communicating in English.:doh2:

[joecar]

If you can call mine English...

in the other thread I was trying to explain how to compare 2 tune files... :rotflmao:...I ended up having to use a picture... :doh2::doh2::doh2:

[dfe1]

If you can call mine English...

in the other thread I was trying to explain how to compare 2 tune files... :rotflmao:...I ended up having to use a picture... :doh2::doh2::doh2:

And you call yourself an engineer.......:eek:

[TAQuickness]

I like pictures :D

NASA - I'm glad you are finding the patience to get things sorted. I believe in the end you will find your efforts to be quite rewarding. You may even be able to make a few bucks off your Z06 buddy

[joecar]

Dave, you're funny...:rotflmao:

[hymey]

hey

on the positive wire, Billdog on the CF suggested that I hook up the positive wire to the fuel relay because it is switched on only when the engine is running vs when the ignition switch is turned but the engine isn't running.

He further explained this keeps the WO2 from burning up if I were ever to leave the ignition on, but not have the car running.

This sounds like a winner of an Idea to me but it's the first I've herd or read of it.

Any confirmation or comment is welcome as this is the avenue I plan on pursuing at this time.

I just run mine off accessories power. BTW another engineer here. But back on the tools again:doh2:

[Chuck L.]

Dave, you're funny...:rotflmao:

outstanding in his field!
I saw him there, just yesterday!!!:muahaha:
After reading this thread, I am even more convinced that my EFI "learning curve" isn't steep, it's vertical.:hihi:
But, I'm only a few miles from Dave, and I know where his field is!!:grin:

[dfe1]

Please excuse Chuck L-- he's delusional

[joecar]

hymey's also an engineer... :cheers:...we will takeover/rule the world (or something)...:cheers:

[/hijack]

[SSpdDmon]

hymey's also an engineer... :cheers:...we will takeover/rule the world (or something)...:cheers:

[/hijack]
I was raised by one - does that count? :D

[Chuck L.]

Please excuse Chuck L-- he's delusional
Last time, you said I was "digitally challenged"...:grin:

[joecar]

I was raised by one - does that count? :DYes, it rubs off on off-spring [and on engineers' off-spring the most]... :cheers:

I'm sure your have seen your engineer parent go thru a thought process to design/build/debug something...
it's not the knowledge acquired that matters (it can be looked up)...
but its the thought process and how the knowledge/tools/graphs/calculations are used, and how it all fits into the bigger system.

Cheers,
Joe
:cheers:

[TAQuickness]

Yes, it rubs off on off-spring [and on engineers' off-spring the most]... :cheers:

I'm sure your have seen your engineer parent go thru a thought process to design/build/debug something...
it's not the knowledge acquired that matters (it can be looked up)...
but its the thought process and how the knowledge/tools/graphs/calculations are used, and how it all fits into the bigger system.

Cheers,
Joe
:cheers:
That's sig quote worthy.

So Nasa Blue - how you feeling these days? Is it starting to make a little more sense?

[white01ss]

NASA - One more thing... I paid a professional $600 just to get my car WOT "safe" on a dyno after installing the supercharger.

Then I got it home and it sometimes died, threw codes, stumbled at part throttle, and got poor gas mileage. I'm not bashing my tuner at all because he made my car safe to flog and I didn't have a clue how to do it... I've managed to fix all those drivability problems myself, but it took 4 months of bust-ass research. Now I'm reading Banish's book and learning even more.

Ultimately, if you want to get the car to run right you'll have to do it yourself because there's little chance of getting a perfectly tuned vehicle for $600.

[eboggs_jkvl]

NASA - One more thing... I paid a professional $600 just to get my car WOT "safe" on a dyno after installing the supercharger.

Then I got it home and it sometimes died, threw codes, stumbled at part throttle, and got poor gas mileage. I'm not bashing my tuner at all because he made my car safe to flog and I didn't have a clue how to do it... I've managed to fix all those drivability problems myself, but it took 4 months of bust-ass research. Now I'm reading Banish's book and learning even more.

Ultimately, if you want to get the car to run right you'll have to do it yourself because there's little chance of getting a perfectly tuned vehicle for $600.


He tuned my car too! In Orlando right? :sly::cheers:

[NASABlue]

guess who's back and whos car doesn't idle worth a darn

ME!!

:doh2:

Guess who's manufacturers defect clutch took him 6 months to replace because I'm burnt the f out on disassembling my car in the spare time I don't have?

ME again!

[joecar]

Hi NASA,

Don't dispair, it could be worse...

Here some idle tuning info (I'm not sure if you've seen this):
Idle Tuning:
showthread.php?t=4661 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4661) <-- idle tuning tutorial by SSpdDmon
showthread.php?t=149 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=149)
showthread.php?t=5866 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5866&highlight=RAFIG)
showthread.php?p=86553 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=86553) post #17

Cheers
Joe
:)

[NASABlue]

thanks again joe

I'm going to look these over

:cheers:

[PSWired]

My trick for calibrating an installed wideband on a car with a cable actuated TB:

In park, run the engine up close to its rev limiter.
Turn off the key.
At the same time, open up the throttle 100%.

As the engine decelerates, it will pump fresh air into the exhaust system. Enough to purge exhaust gases from the O2 sensor area.

You might be able to do this on an ETC car by using bidirectional controls to cut fuel? Or by setting the RPM re-enable after overspeed fuel cut to 0 RPM in the tune.

[SSpdDmon]

My trick for calibrating an installed wideband on a car with a cable actuated TB:

In park, run the engine up close to its rev limiter.
Turn off the key.
At the same time, open up the throttle 100%.

As the engine decelerates, it will pump fresh air into the exhaust system. Enough to purge exhaust gases from the O2 sensor area.

You might be able to do this on an ETC car by using bidirectional controls to cut fuel? Or by setting the RPM re-enable after overspeed fuel cut to 0 RPM in the tune.
Although this will get you close, it's still not as good as a free air calibration with the O2 sensor outside of the exhaust. I've seen over a 1/2 point of difference in AFR readings using this method of calibration. So, I'd rather take 5 minutes to unscrew the sensor from the exhaust and calibrate it...

[NASABlue]

SS

Your write up on idle tuning is Great!

I'm trying to work around being able to increase my learned idle airflow time on my 97 PMC. But things are making much more sense this time.

Last night I tried to log some data, which I did, but I couldn't clear my LTFT and STFT, as the option wasn't highlighted in my option menu.

Sure is great to get her back on the road, even if the drivability isn't good. When she's under part throttle, the AFR is 13.5. IT seemed to be better wikth less bucking when it was cool. AS it warmed up, it was much worse.

I'm still reading (re reading and re reading) through your posts and digesting... but thanks for your time writing these up.

So, not that I'm there yet so what, does the road runner add to the picture?

[SSpdDmon]

SS

Your write up on idle tuning is Great!

I'm trying to work around being able to increase my learned idle airflow time on my 97 PMC. But things are making much more sense this time.

Last night I tried to log some data, which I did, but I couldn't clear my LTFT and STFT, as the option wasn't highlighted in my option menu.

Sure is great to get her back on the road, even if the drivability isn't good. When she's under part throttle, the AFR is 13.5. IT seemed to be better wikth less bucking when it was cool. AS it warmed up, it was much worse.

I'm still reading (re reading and re reading) through your posts and digesting... but thanks for your time writing these up.

So, not that I'm there yet so what, does the road runner add to the picture?
Thanks....back when I had time to put some text on this site, I figured it was worth sharing - so I did. Been a lot busier lately. One thing you'll find is that reducing timing or richening the AFR can help with the drive-ability. Also, getting the airflow right (TC and TF) is important. If you're running closed loop, you may need to adjust the switching points for low speed driving to help keep the bucking at bay. I guess working with a '97 is a little more difficult with there being fewer options for adjustment. The best I can say at this point is good luck and give it your best shot. Make manageable changes and keep what works. =)