Transient fuelling????

[hquick]

I've been searching here and on the net in general and it seems HPTuners has some sort of 'transient' fuelling tables.
I know GM uses these in their tunes.
Any chance we're going to see the same in EFILive...Paul???? Ross????

I hate seeing my afr guage peg out max lean any time I touch the throttle. :shock:

[redhardsupra]

google the topic. all you're gonna find (that's worth your time) is patent applications and phd thesis. not an easy topic. any enlightenment in this department is greatly welcome

[5.7ute]

.I have heard about xtau fuel modelling which is supposedly helpful in theses circumstances. Whether this is a table in the LS series of PCM though is another matter entirely.

[MICK]

Howard your on track with this one.

As you know the algorithm behind this is quite complicated.

Marcin you would be happy to learn that the tuning software that GM use "Inca" has a portal to Matlab and other proprietary software to calculate these transients.

This will be no easy fix for you as you will require inside information....you know what to do...keep pushing for more information +.

Cheers

Mick

PS: That intercooler will help!

[hquick]

Hi Mick,
I was just talking with my GM buddy (he dropped in to show me the Pontiac G8 GXP he was putting around in).
He was really surprised we didn't have transient fuelling abilities.
He said they have the ability in their tuning to dump a heap of fuel in...in block form at tip in. Can't recall what he called it (block dump I think).
The intercooler has become necessary...even on a 15oC day I'm cruising at 45o IAT's and easily get to 60oC if I give the throttle a tap.

[GMPX]

I have added in the settings you guys want for the E38/E67's, LS1 will follow soon.

Cheers,
Ross

[hquick]

Ross.....you absolutely ROCK!!!!!......(how soon will the LS1 tables be done).

[5.7ute]

Great work Ross..:rockon:

[redhardsupra]

looks good, but does it come with any explanations? :)

[dc_justin]

I have added in the settings you guys want for the E38/E67's, LS1 will follow soon.

Cheers,
Ross

:rockon:

[swingtan]

This is looking great Ross! Any chance the E38 code will be in tonights planned update?

Simon

[joecar]

LS1 too... thanks Ross...:cheers: :cheers:

[...can you tell we're all happy... :) ]

[405HP_Z06]

Ross.....you absolutely ROCK!!!!!......(how soon will the LS1 tables be done).

:thumb_yello::w00t: Can't wait for the LS1!

[MICK]

Hummm, I take back all those evil things I said about you Ross.....:angel_innocent:

You Da Big Gahoona Now!

[joecar]

Ross,

Will this be fitted to all 1999+ LS1 OS's...?

If it gets fitted to 12212156/12225074 does it mean it will get fitted to COS5 also...?

Cheers
Joe

[hquick]

I was seriously considering heading over to the 'dark side...HPT' :bawl: until Ross announced this yesterday. Now I'm :jump:
It was a toss up between HPT and the Roadrunner. :badidea: I know!
Thanks Ross...you saved me. Lol! :thumb_yello:

[5.7ute]

I was seriously considering heading over to the 'dark side...HPT' :bawl: until Ross announced this yesterday. Now I'm :jump:
It was a toss up between HPT and the Roadrunner. :badidea: I know!
Thanks Ross...you saved me. Lol! :thumb_yello:

Lucky you didnt Howard. Selling one ancient rusted piece of junk to buy another would of got you in trouble with the missus. :angel_innocent:

[Delco]

I was seriously considering heading over to the 'dark side...HPT' :bawl: until Ross announced this yesterday. Now I'm :jump:
It was a toss up between HPT and the Roadrunner. :badidea: I know!
Thanks Ross...you saved me. Lol! :thumb_yello:

Do you think that would have helped ?

[hquick]

Do you think that would have helped ?

Nope....but I'm just about ready to give anything a try to get my Truck tuned.

Mick...I prefer to think of the "ancient rusted piece of junk" (HJ Wagon) as 'History'...or Art...Lol!

[Delco]

Nope....but I'm just about ready to give anything a try to get my Truck tuned.

Mick...I prefer to think of the "ancient rusted piece of junk" (HJ Wagon) as 'History'...or Art...Lol!

Road runner is what you need with an out of the ordinary combo like you have.

[hquick]

Yup! :)
MICK lent me his for a couple of months but I still really couldn't get it all dialled in.
I just sold an old HJ wagon and was pleasantly surprised when my wife said "now you can buy the Roadrunner".
I'm just waiting on a reply from Craig Moates....

[5.7ute]

Yup! :)
MICK lent me his for a couple of months but I still really couldn't get it all dialled in.
I just sold an old HJ wagon and was pleasantly surprised when my wife said "now you can buy the Roadrunner".
I'm just waiting on a reply from Craig Moates....

Give Oztrack a PM. He usually has a few on hand with support.( though you should have it down pat by now)

[hquick]

Thanks Mick..yeah...I'll wait to hear from Craig. I'm going to buy the DIY kit. I have enough PCM's.
I understand there has been a release of RR software upgrades allowing for more functionality...add, subtract, divide...not just multiply?!

[405HP_Z06]

I was seriously considering heading over to the 'dark side...HPT' :bawl: until Ross announced this yesterday. Now I'm :jump:
It was a toss up between HPT and the Roadrunner. :badidea: I know!
Thanks Ross...you saved me. Lol! :thumb_yello:

All this would do is lighten your pocket book. Waiting for my RoadRunner now, can't wait.

[BlackGMC]

So do the transient fueling tables work similar to the accelerator pump on a carb?

[MICK]

Roger!

They don't have the exact same naming but the desired effect should be similar to accell enrichment.

I'm sure the transient fueling parameters will get quite a flogging once they are included into the definition templates.

There is quite a few parameters involved that make up this section. I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion on there description and usage.

Should keep Marcin busy for at least 6 months...:)

Mick

[redhardsupra]

Should keep Marcin busy for at least 6 months...:)

i'm gonna take that as a complement, regardless of the original intent ;)

[hquick]

Any news yet......Ross??????

[tazinhawaii]

HOLY CRAP!!!! This is awesome. Been wanting this feature for 3 years now. I've learned to get around it some with the VE tables and live with it a lot. I used to have a FAST system in my old car that had this feature and it was absolutely necessary. Thanks for the continued software support. I assume this will be included in COS3 systems as well (since I can't seen to get COS5 to work in my 2001 Corvette PCM, actually a 512K road runner)..... :(

Derrick

[hquick]

I assume this will be included in COS3 systems as well
We're counting on it.

[hquick]

Just out of curiosity....
am I the ONLY one clicking the 'check for updates' button 10 times a day :grin:

[405HP_Z06]

Just out of curiosity....
am I the ONLY one clicking the 'check for updates' button 10 times a day :grin:

No sir, that makes at least two of us. :fluffy:

[Goldfinger911]

Updates please!!

This is awesome. This feature is in the AEM standalone and REALLY helps with crisp throttle response, especially when you have large volume intakes and throttle bodies. I almost went the AEM route with my LS1 because of this feature (and the fact I have tuned several of them)

Thank Ross! Bring on the goodness!

[MICK]

I like the AEM operating systems and software, the early software is a bit primitive but covers good ground. I like the info that you can gain from there software. They have these wizards that automatically supply data for given parameters to build a base tune. For example, they have all the data on a large number of injector offsets hint hint. One would download there free software just to look at this type of information which is hard to come by.

I have the opportunity to look over a 2JZ Solara that runs a AEM and I find it very interesting as the AEM can do a few things that a Motec can't. This vehicle runs in the 6 sec club.

Need more toys to play with, keep typing and I will simply the Pizza...:)

[MICK]

Acceleration Fuel
The AEM EMS has a traditional accelerator pump which consists of delta-throttle
position (dTPS) and delta-load (dMAP) components. These both work on similar
principles. The idea being that a rapid change of pressure in the intake system
requires a change in fuel requirements, beyond that dictated by a simple air-fuel ratio
calculation. The primary reason for this is the time lag for the fuel flow into the air
stream at the injector and the fuel flow past the inlet valve. Chiefly, this is due to the
liquid fuel that is on the intake track walls which travels much slower than the fuel
vapor and small droplets of fuel being carried by the air stream. For this same
reason, there is a "decel pump", which, acts opposite as the accel pump. By
measuring the dTPS, you can judge how much extra fuel would be required.
Alternately, if the dTPS does not give a good indication of the change in inlet
pressure (huge throttle plates or a positive displacement supercharger), you may
need to use dMAP directly.


I found this in the AEM bible, thought you would find it interesting.

[Aloicious]

Great googily moogily. transient fuel tables for the LS1 OS's :shock:? this thread makes me happy.

[Goldfinger911]

Yup yup. It rocks. I had my 2JZGTE Supra revving up like a Gixxer. :)



Acceleration Fuel

The AEM EMS has a traditional accelerator pump which consists of delta-throttle
position (dTPS) and delta-load (dMAP) components. These both work on similar
principles. The idea being that a rapid change of pressure in the intake system
requires a change in fuel requirements, beyond that dictated by a simple air-fuel ratio
calculation. The primary reason for this is the time lag for the fuel flow into the air
stream at the injector and the fuel flow past the inlet valve. Chiefly, this is due to the
liquid fuel that is on the intake track walls which travels much slower than the fuel
vapor and small droplets of fuel being carried by the air stream. For this same
reason, there is a "decel pump", which, acts opposite as the accel pump. By
measuring the dTPS, you can judge how much extra fuel would be required.
Alternately, if the dTPS does not give a good indication of the change in inlet
pressure (huge throttle plates or a positive displacement supercharger), you may
need to use dMAP directly.


I found this in the AEM bible, thought you would find it interesting.

[hquick]

This is some info on transient fuel my buddy at GM just sent me.
Hope it helps when we get to play with the updated software.


OK - first I'll give a brief reason as to why you need transient fuel, and then I'll go through how to go about utilizing it.

In a PFI engine the natural tendency of the equivalence ratio (EQR, which is the inverse of Lambda) is to go lean on positive MAP change, and rich on negative MAP change, due to fuel being lost on the port/cylinder wall. This is affected greatly by intake valve temperature, SOI (start of injection timing), fuel volatility and engine age (mainly due to carbon buildup),. Valve temperature should be modeled by the software. This is hugely important, as this plays a big part in determining how much fuel you put in/take out during a transient manouvre. If you do not have a valve temperature model in your software, coolant temp should get you close enough. SOI is controlled by the ECU and should be completely calibratable. Generally the earlier you inject, the more wall wetting you get and the more transient fuel compensation you need. Most engine control software has no way of knowing what the fuel volatility is (it is very difficult to accurately gauge by the ECU), and so the majority ignore it. This is unfortunate, as volatility plays a massive part in transient response. As far as I'm aware, no software currently compensates for engine age either.
The easiest way to think of it is that fuel builds up on the port wall in high load, and then evaporates off when you return back to low load, and usually follows a skewed sinusoidal shape . Therefore you need to add on the way up and subtract on the way out in order to keep fuelling at around EQR 1.00.
If you do not calibrate transient fuel correctly, the car will go lean on tipins, resulting in a stretchy acceleration (sometimes called rubberbanding). Richness on tipout isn't as big a deal as far as drivability goes - its more of an emissions issue. However, if you make your decel compensation too agressive (by the cal in (c) below), you can go lean on tipout, which can make your decels feel very snatchy and unpleasant to drive.

Before you do ANY transient fuel calibration, you need to ensure that your air measurement and open loop fuelling are top notch. You don't want to be compensating for poor fuel or air control with transient fuel.

To cut a very long and complicated algorithm down into its bare bones, you should have the following basic functionality in your transient fuel cals:
a) a table of fuel adjustment as a function of valve temperature vs delta MAP. This is your "bread and butter" transient fuel table. This gives you the height of the sinusoidal wave.
b) a table which modifies the fuel adjustment to "bleed out" the transient fuel applied in (a). This gives you the width (or to put it more accurately, the duration of transient compensation) of the sinusiodal shape and also effects maximum height to some extent. It models the evaporation of the fuel puddle off the port wall. It should also be a table of valve temp vs delta MAP.
c) a scalar to change wall wetting compensation for decels. You generally find that you need to pull out less fuel on decels than what you put in on accels. This should just be a scalar of compensation vs valve temp. The software will work fine without this, but its a good functionality to have.
d) functionality to suspend transient fuel for x seconds after start. You do not want transient fuel pulling out fuel just after start, when MAP falls from 100 to idle MAP.

As far as calibrating transient fuel goes, you generally only need a lot of transient fuel up to around 70 or 80 degrees valve temperature (depending on capacity and airspeed over valves etc). After that point you shouldn't need too much transient fuel compensation at all, as practically 100% of your injected fuel should be going into the cylinder. Below 10 degrees you may find you need a lot. If you are having poor drivability cold, in particular if you are feeling stretchy accels, this is probably why.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any questions about this stuff. It's a lot to digest, and its very hard to explain some of this stuff without diagrams etc.

[5.7ute]

Another good bit of information there Howard. I cant wait for these calibrations to be added to the ls1 files so we can start modifying them.

[hquick]

Well....so far I think I've worn out 3 mouses and burnt out half a dozen pixels on my monitor clicking on the "check for updates" button....:nixweiss:
I know you're working on it Ross....I'm just eager. :cheers:

[joecar]

Good info Howard... :cheers: ...do you have more...? (we'll help your friend post pictures and translate from Engineering into English). :cheers:

[hquick]

I'm just waiting to see the new tables so I can show him and see if he can compare to what they use and give us some more info.
I might put him in my passenger seat with the RR and see if he can play with things whilst I drive. Then we can take a look at what he's done.

[MICK]

Warning!

There have been bad reports on the effects of the new Transient Fuel Parameters as pictured below.

All persons waiting for these new parameters should seek medical attention or suffer the effects of long term exposure.



http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn189/AussieLS1evil/cid_000801c8c61d300982a09f00a8c0D54.jpg

[hquick]

Any news yet????? :confused:

[joecar]

Mick, that's just gruesome... :cheers:

[hquick]

I think Mick snuck...hmm...is that a word :grin: down here and took that pic through my window. :help2:

RR guts kit arrived today and I'll solder it in in a couple of hours (once I've finished running the kids around for the night).
Got 2 interstate trips to do this weekend so the new transient tables would have been interesting to try out (lots of hills and long flats).

[MICK]

Mick, that's just gruesome... :cheers:


Yeah thanks Joe,

I was looking for something to use this one on, I was going to write it up as Ross's obituary but didn't what to offend GOD!

He must have sore fingers by now and his eyes have gone crossed. Must finish Transient Fuelling Parameters....ohhhhhhh.

LOL

:angel_innocent:

[hquick]

Hmmmm....I have it on good info....the LS1 transient tables haven't been started yet. :bawl:

[5.7ute]

Hmmmm....I have it on good info....the LS1 transient tables haven't been started yet. :bawl:

You could always upgrade to an e38 PCM:angel_innocent:

[hquick]

How does No! sound?

[Whippled 496]

I am also patiently waiting for this update. Please, please hurry :help2:

[hquick]

This is an email I just received from my buddy at GM.


There probably isn't much in the way of non-GM confidential stuff I can give you about transient fuelling. However, if you are really keen, take a look at this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Internal-Combustion-Engine-Benjamin-Heywood/dp/0071004998/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213311731&sr=1-4

A lot of the guys at work have got this book.
It is VERY heavy reading, but if it isn't covered in this book, it probably isn't worth covering.

[joecar]

Very heavy reading... very detailed, and includes a lot of math and thoery backed up by empirical data...

written by an engineer for engineers... a good book, but not for the feint of heart... a thick book and so requires persistent reading over a long term.

[5.7ute]

written by an engineer for engineers... a good book, but not for the feint of heart... a thick book and so requires persistent reading over a long term.

Or a frontal lobotomy:angel_innocent:

[joecar]

lol... engineers have traded social skills for other abilities. :D

[5.7ute]

lol... engineers have traded social skills for other abilities. :D

A few years ago (OK quite a few years ago)when I was doing my apprenticeship they had this great picture on the wall. It was of a bucktoothed derro with the caption. Six munce ago I cudnt even spil engineer
& now I are one. Definately suited the few we had.(Civil)

[hquick]

Or a frontal lobotomy:angel_innocent:

How about a full bottle in front of me? :hihi:

[joecar]

How about a full bottle in front of me? :hihi:roflmao... :cheers:

[joecar]

A few years ago (OK quite a few years ago)when I was doing my apprenticeship they had this great picture on the wall. It was of a bucktoothed derro with the caption. Six munce ago I cudnt even spil engineer
& now I are one. Definately suited the few we had.(Civil)I have seen a similar poster... it is very funny...:cheers:...our engineering faculty sold T-shirts with that inscription on the back.

[405HP_Z06]

This is some info on transient fuel my buddy at GM just sent me.
Hope it helps when we get to play with the updated software.


OK - first I'll give a brief reason as to why you need transient fuel, and then I'll go through how to go about utilizing it.

In a PFI engine the natural tendency of the equivalence ratio (EQR, which is the inverse of Lambda) is to go lean on positive
MAP change, and rich on negative MAP change, due to fuel being lost on the port/cylinder wall. This is affected greatly by intake
valve temperature, SOI (start of injection timing), fuel volatility and engine age (mainly due to carbon buildup),. Valve
temperature should be modeled by the software. This is hugely important, as this plays a big part in determining how much fuel
you put in/take out during a transient manouvre. If you do not have a valve temperature model in your software, coolant temp
should get you close enough. SOI is controlled by the ECU and should be completely calibratable. Generally the earlier you inject,
the more wall wetting you get and the more transient fuel compensation you need. Most engine control software has no way
of knowing what the fuel volatility is (it is very difficult to accurately gauge by the ECU), and so the majority ignore it. This is
unfortunate, as volatility plays a massive part in transient response. As far as I'm aware, no software currently compensates
for engine age either.

The easiest way to think of it is that fuel builds up on the port wall in high load, and then evaporates off when you return back
to low load, and usually follows a skewed sinusoidal shape . Therefore you need to add on the way up and subtract on the way
out in order to keep fuelling at around EQR 1.00.

If you do not calibrate transient fuel correctly, the car will go lean on tipins, resulting in a stretchy acceleration (sometimes called rubberbanding).
Richness on tipout isn't as big a deal as far as drivability goes - its more of an emissions issue. However, if you make your
decel compensation too agressive (by the cal in (c) below), you can go lean on tipout, which can make your decels feel very
snatchy and unpleasant to drive.

Before you do ANY transient fuel calibration, you need to ensure that your air measurement and open loop fuelling are top notch.
You don't want to be compensating for poor fuel or air control with transient fuel.

To cut a very long and complicated algorithm down into its bare bones, you should have the following basic functionality
in your transient fuel cals:
a) a table of fuel adjustment as a function of valve temperature vs delta MAP. This is your "bread and butter" transient fuel table.
This gives you the height of the sinusoidal wave.

b) a table which modifies the fuel adjustment to "bleed out" the transient fuel applied in (a). This gives you the width
(or to put it more accurately, the duration of transient compensation) of the sinusiodal shape and also effects maximum
height to some extent. It models the evaporation of the fuel puddle off the port wall. It should also be a table of valve temp vs delta MAP.

c) a scalar to change wall wetting compensation for decels. You generally find that you need to pull out less fuel on
decels than what you put in on accels. This should just be a scalar of compensation vs valve temp. The software will
work fine without this, but its a good functionality to have.

d) functionality to suspend transient fuel for x seconds after start. You do not want transient fuel pulling out fuel
just after start, when MAP falls from 100 to idle MAP.

As far as calibrating transient fuel goes, you generally only need a lot of transient fuel up to around 70 or 80 degrees
valve temperature (depending on capacity and airspeed over valves etc). After that point you shouldn't need too
much transient fuel compensation at all, as practically 100% of your injected fuel should be going into the cylinder.
Below 10 degrees you may find you need a lot. If you are having poor drivability cold, in particular if you are feeling
stretchy accels, this is probably why.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any questions about this stuff. It's a lot to digest, and its very hard to
explain some of this stuff without diagrams etc.


The attached image is from the HP Tuners, but from the description above do these appear to be the transient fueling tables in question? Sorry about the large image.

http://www.andersonperformance.net/tf-hpt.jpg

[hquick]

Yes....I believe so.

[Whippled 496]

Still nothing?!??!!?

[hquick]

Paul told me last week they hadn't started the LS1 transient tables yet...so...it may be a fair way off... :frown: :bawl:

[Whippled 496]

Paul told me last week they hadn't started the LS1 transient tables yet...so...it may be a fair way off... :frown: :bawl:

CRAP!:doh2:

[hquick]

Hey Paul....please tell us this has been 'started'?
:nixweiss: :thumb_yello:

[hquick]

Any news yet Ross???

[Whippled 496]

OMG!!!! What is going on?? We need these tables! Please ROSS help! HPT has these tables for the 99-02 trucks and I am sick of them ragging me about it.

[MICK]

Warning!

There have been bad reports on the effects of the new Transient Fuel Parameters as pictured below.

All persons waiting for these new parameters should seek medical attention or suffer the effects of long term exposure.



http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn189/AussieLS1evil/cid_000801c8c61d300982a09f00a8c0D54.jpg[/quote]

[GMPX]

Guys, send GM an Email asking them to stop releasing updates for all the new controllers.
In the last few months there has been 6 new operating systems for the E38 / E67 (There is now 55 supported in total in EFILive), 3 for the T42, 2 for the T43, 2 for the Diesels. What's more, is the 2009 model updates haven't finished yet so there is probably more to come.

Should I ignore the Emails that flood in once those updates come out saying that 'we have a car on the dyno we can't tune please help' ?

If you have never tried to do the work we do then you probably can't appreciate how much work is involved in getting up to date support on all the GM controllers we support (Mick I would expect you might have some idea). There is 52 supported LS1 OS's we will need to add this in to, not counting the custom ones. Right now I don't have time to do it based on other demands. I don't know what else to say.

[hquick]

Basically...that's what we really wanted to know Ross.
We're all (supercharged guys) hanging on the Transient tables but as they aren't going to happen...we know not to bother with this line of thinking any longer.
Need to whack that MAF back in there!

EDIT: But I am disappointed. :bawl:

[Delco]

Basically...that's what we really wanted to know Ross.
We're all (supercharged guys) hanging on the Transient tables but as they aren't going to happen...we know not to bother with this line of thinking any longer.
Need to whack that MAF back in there!

EDIT: But I am disappointed. :bawl:

I dont honestly believe this is going to solve your issues , I used to edit all those tables and a lot more into a efilive tune in hex in the old days and got to the stage I dont use them at all any longer due to the better control we get now with the real time tuning.

I suspect you have more of a issue with a setup , you are using a different controller and blower on your engine than it was ever designed for , you need to compensate with things like boost referenced regulator , careful setting up of the tune etc.

I tune 4-5 blown combos a week and dont have any of the sort of issues you are coming across most of these are 400+ cube combos with whipples and Vortechs.

[hquick]

Thanks Delco....I'll take any/all advice I can get.
In my way of thinking, Justin is a well respected tuner and has had to go back to using a MAF to solve his issues. I've been doing some reading on the HPT site and the Performance Trucks site and there are a few guys with the same issues who have solved them via the transient tables and the wall wetting settings?
If you can offer any advice on where I should be looking....I'm all ears?

[Delco]

Thanks Delco....I'll take any/all advice I can get.
In my way of thinking, Justin is a well respected tuner and has had to go back to using a MAF to solve his issues. I've been doing some reading on the HPT site and the Performance Trucks site and there are a few guys with the same issues who have solved them via the transient tables and the wall wetting settings?
If you can offer any advice on where I should be looking....I'm all ears?


Cant say I know of any Justin on the east coast who is a tuner ? and you should never have to go back to maf.

Not having seen any pics of your setup I will give you some generalisations on a whipple combo - post up some pics and details and I will try and help some more.

Now say you are cruising down the hwy at 2000 rpm , you have a map reading of 40 kpa and a fuel pressure of 400kpa and about 5% duty cycle on the injectors - effectively you have 460 kpa of pressure drop across the injectors . next you stab the thottle , map goes to 140 kpa and you are using 40% duty cycle - 2 things happen here , fuel pressure drops off to 370kpa momentarily due the extra demand on the injectors ( if you have the full return system with the regulator after the fuel rail this is minimised ) even once this returns to 400kpa base pressure but you still have a pressure drop across the injector of 350kpa so effectively you have lost 90kpa of fuel pressure forcing the fuel through the injector ( or approx 10% of the fuel flow ) so you get a lean spike . he extra 30kpa you can loose as you open the injector just makes this worse.

Now take the case of a full return fuel system boost referenced regulator after the fuel rail.

at the same cruise point and base fuel pressure of 400kpa you have a map value of 40kpa and a pressure drop across the injector of 340kpa , stab the throttle and you are now at 140kpa , the pressure drop across the injector is 440kpa due to the 40 kpa acting on the regulator.

So you can see you are getting a extra shot of fuel as you crack the throttle rather than effectively loosing fuel in the non boost referenced situation.

look at the log attached of a 402 whipple I did yesterday , this is during the ciurse of the dyno before road tuning so part throttle isnt perfect yet but see how it transitions into boost

[dc_justin]

Cant say I know of any Justin on the east coast who is a tuner ? and you should never have to go back to maf.

Not having seen any pics of your setup I will give you some generalisations on a whipple combo - post up some pics and details and I will try and help some more.

Now say you are cruising down the hwy at 2000 rpm , you have a map reading of 40 kpa and a fuel pressure of 400kpa and about 5% duty cycle on the injectors - effectively you have 460 kpa of pressure drop across the injectors . next you stab the thottle , map goes to 140 kpa and you are using 40% duty cycle - 2 things happen here , fuel pressure drops off to 370kpa momentarily due the extra demand on the injectors ( if you have the full return system with the regulator after the fuel rail this is minimised ) even once this returns to 400kpa base pressure but you still have a pressure drop across the injector of 350kpa so effectively you have lost 90kpa of fuel pressure forcing the fuel through the injector ( or approx 10% of the fuel flow ) so you get a lean spike . he extra 30kpa you can loose as you open the injector just makes this worse.

Now take the case of a full return fuel system boost referenced regulator after the fuel rail.

at the same cruise point and base fuel pressure of 400kpa you have a map value of 40kpa and a pressure drop across the injector of 340kpa , stab the throttle and you are now at 140kpa , the pressure drop across the injector is 440kpa due to the 40 kpa acting on the regulator.

So you can see you are getting a extra shot of fuel as you crack the throttle rather than effectively loosing fuel in the non boost referenced situation.

look at the log attached of a 402 whipple I did yesterday , this is during the ciurse of the dyno before road tuning so part throttle isnt perfect yet but see how it transitions into boost

I wish that were the case for us truck owners, but it's not working out. Take mine for example, one of many having this issue. 6L running an intercooled eaton 112. Fuel system is full return and manifold referenced.

This was on EFI University's DD Dyno and the truck had previously been dialed in to +-5% at all load points up to 4400rpm. Clearly not the case you're encountering. At cold start, a commanded AFR of 11.5:1 will yield 20:1 and leaner upon any change in throttle greater than 5% per 100ms until near-operating temperature had been reached. The same vehicle has absolutely zero transient fuel issues with the MAF enabled.

HPTuners has the wall wetting parameters for 512Kb LS1 PCMs and similarly configured trucks have shown fantastic results with an increase in fuel mass.

Ben Strader is here for a few days, I'm going to have him confirm it tomorrow morning, as no changes in mechanical configuration or available tuning parameters have been successful in alleviating this problem.

http://www.marketitright.com/ss/tuning/transient-blip.gif

[Delco]

Can you post the log of that rather than the screenshot , why is the AFR already at 11.25 AFR before you opened the throttle ? I would expect you to be at 14-15 afr before the throttle stab

It looks like you may have a few setup issues to work through.

[hquick]

Here's a log I just took and my tune to go with it.
RTACS was active during this log but was set very fine.

[dc_justin]

Can you post the log of that rather than the screenshot , why is the AFR already at 11.25 AFR before you opened the throttle ? I would expect you to be at 14-15 afr before the throttle stab

It looks like you may have a few setup issues to work through.

Commanded with bi-di controls. At 14-15:1 it will spike considerably leaner than 15:1.

I don't believe I can locate that log file any longer, as it was made long ago, but can easily reproduce it.

I'd be willing to entertain any setup ideas, but given the fact that every roots-boosted truck in SD runs into the same issue, I think it's unlikely.

[Delco]

Commanded with bi-di controls. At 14-15:1 it will spike considerably leaner than 15:1.

I don't believe I can locate that log file any longer, as it was made long ago, but can easily reproduce it.

I'd be willing to entertain any setup ideas, but given the fact that every roots-boosted truck in SD runs into the same issue, I think it's unlikely.
Do you have a pic of the blower setup in your truck , all the stuff we do is blower in place of manifold , your truck stuff is different isnt it , the only truck stuff we do is eatons on hummers

[Delco]

Howard , one thing I noticed with your tune is the injecyor flow rate is a flat line.

Now even without a boost referenced setup the presure drop across the injector varies with the manifold vacuum so at low kpa regions.

Effectively a 40 lb injector functions as a say a 50lb injector and a 35lb injector under boost.

by having the slope on the injector flow rate the pcm sees the change in flow and adds sqirt of fuel on the transition.
Transiant fueling may help a little but is is only a small part of it.

Your PE ramp in is also turned off , I would normally use the opn loop mixture table and then transition into pe as it enters boost

[hquick]

Here's some pic's of mine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/Mercruiser%20Marine%20Manifold/PA200005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/Mercruiser%20Marine%20Manifold/PA200003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/Mercruiser%20Marine%20Manifold/P1220010.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/Mercruiser%20Marine%20Manifold/P9280011.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/Mercruiser%20Marine%20Manifold/P9290001.jpg

And the first video of it running the marine manifold.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/Mercruiser%20Marine%20Manifold/th_marineintake-idling.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/Mercruiser%20Marine%20Manifold/?action=view&current=marineintake-idling.flv)

[hquick]

The injector flow rate is a flat line because everything I've read says for manifold ref'd...it should be. If not...please tell me how I should set it up?
As for the PE...yeah..trying to bring PE in early with as little delay as possible to counter those lean spikes.
What would you recommend?

[Delco]

I can see why the maf wouldnt have the issue given the setup , there is such a long intake tract from when the air moves past the maf to when it enters the engine I would expect there to be a rich transition rather than a lean one.

I would setup try using PE mode to enter early based on manifold vacuum not rellying on B3647 which is in a low priority part of the code , have a slope in the fuel flow to account for the transition - yes in the trucks GM did it wrong but different calibrators do things differently , I know when I use to be a OEM calibrator we all had to follow different criteria setout depending on if we were doing it for GM ,Jaguar or Ford , look at how injector flow is done in the supercharged cars.

[hquick]

Thanks for the advice...I'll try the injector slope and see how it goes.
Willing to try anything. Lol!
Can you please clarify this?


I would setup try using PE mode to enter early based on manifold vacuum not rellying on B3647

[dc_justin]

Here's the radix supercharger:

http://www.marketitright.com/ss/rails/rails3.jpg

http://www.marketitright.com/ss/radix2.jpg




Thanks for the advice...I'll try the injector slope and see how it goes.
Willing to try anything. Lol!
Can you please clarify this?


Quote:
I would setup try using PE mode to enter early based on manifold vacuum not rellying on B3647


Howard,

He's suggesting to have your PE enablers setup so that your PE Map threshold is the deciding factor on when PE kicks in. Lower TPS enablers and rely on PE Map.

[hquick]

Map at 85 and TPS is 35...isn't that what I've done?
So does this make sense for the IFR table? 43.5, 42lbs at 58psi.

6.109375
6.148438
6.187500
6.226563
6.257813
6.296875
6.335938
6.375000
6.406250
6.445313
6.484375
6.515625
6.554688
6.585938
6.625000
6.656250
6.695313

[Whippled 496]

Map at 85 and TPS is 35...isn't that what I've done?
So does this make sense for the IFR table? 43.5, 42lbs at 58psi.

6.109375
6.148438
6.187500
6.226563
6.257813
6.296875
6.335938
6.375000
6.406250
6.445313
6.484375
6.515625
6.554688
6.585938
6.625000
6.656250
6.695313

I dont think sloping the table is the solution Howard. Its the wall wetter/transient tables we need. I cant really go back to MAF as i am maxing it out at WOT.

[Delco]

Set B3644 to 1

[hquick]

Thanks....will do.
Does that IFR table look OK?
I'm using the Bosch 42lb greentop injectors.

[hquick]

This log and tune as per your suggestions Delco.
I don't see a change in the lean spike?
Wouldn't transition to PE be quicker with B3644 set to '0' rather than '1'?
Any thoughts...idea's?

[Delco]

See how it lean at 70kp all the time , look at frame 7943 , and the map of the log , the point where you start to have the problem is always lean.

Once it is lean on the transition you will get a partial misfire and that makes it leaner.

Your VE table looks very wierd , then again we dont tune old 350 chevs , would normally never see the big dip at 2500 like you jave.

What happens if you open the throttle at 4000 rpm

[hquick]

I guess 2000 - 3600 is my normal driving rev range.
For me to get to 4K without being in 1st or second I'd have to be going pretty quick already (like...licence losing quick).
A dyno would be a better option for hitting the area's below 2000 and above 3600.
If you have a look at the previous logs I've posted you can see a difference in the Main VE map now that I'm using the curved
IFR table rather than the straight line.

[Whippled 496]

A dialed in VE table will help the spike but not fix it. I have my VE dialed in pretty close and the spike is less obvious than it used to be. It still spikes to 16.xx when i stab it from a dead stop though. Bottom line is we need the transient fuel tables, but until Ross/Paul get time to work on them....we are going to have to live with it or revert back to MAF tuning.

[Delco]

looks to be the trucks ( that dont traditionally have PE mode ) that are having the issues , done a lot of car combos and dont see this issue at all.

[hquick]

I have added in the settings you guys want for the E38/E67's, LS1 will follow soon.

Cheers,
Ross

Any further updates????:confused:

[Whippled 496]

I have added in the settings you guys want for the E38/E67's, LS1 will follow soon.

Cheers,
Ross


Where did you see that???? This is the last thing I have seen him post, and it was just a few pages back....


Guys, send GM an Email asking them to stop releasing updates for all the new controllers.
In the last few months there has been 6 new operating systems for the E38 / E67 (There is now 55 supported in total in EFILive), 3 for the T42, 2 for the T43, 2 for the Diesels. What's more, is the 2009 model updates haven't finished yet so there is probably more to come.

Should I ignore the Emails that flood in once those updates come out saying that 'we have a car on the dyno we can't tune please help' ?

If you have never tried to do the work we do then you probably can't appreciate how much work is involved in getting up to date support on all the GM controllers we support (Mick I would expect you might have some idea). There is 52 supported LS1 OS's we will need to add this in to, not counting the custom ones. Right now I don't have time to do it based on other demands. I don't know what else to say.

Sounds to me like he is pulling his hair out trying to keep up with the new stuff right now. Doesnt sound like we will see anything for the LS1's any time in the near future unfortunately.

[hquick]

That was one of Ross' first posts in this thread which got all our hopes up. Lol!
Just thought I'd remind him...we're all still hangin' for it. Lol!

[MICK]

There might be a solution that I would like to share with you.

You can add parameters to EFILive via the use of a .cax file. If you have enough information you can edit this file in txt format using notepad. You can build the parameters that you require and edit them with the EFILive tuning software as you would any other parameter.

With some insight from Ross and Paul I have modified a .cax file to include a few of the Transient Fuel Parameters for the base operating system of 01270003. You could use this file in non cos3 operating systems in the same family as 12202088. I will need to check that out more.

Once complete you install the .cax file into your C:/ Program Files/ EFILive/ V7.5/ Calibrations Folder. When you next view a tune file with this operating system ID you will have the included parameters contained in the .cax file.

I have attached a copy of the .cax file and base tune file that I have been working with to give you an example of what you can achieve.


!WARNING!


This file is built on information included by myself for learning and testing. Although most parameters look pretty close there will be errors in this file. EFILive do not support the information that I have included in this .cax file and will not except any responsibility for it's use. Something like that will do.


On to the good stuff, Hope you like and feed back is quite welcome, theres plenty more to sort out.

Cheers

Mick

[hquick]

A screenshot!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/transientfuel.jpg

[Lextech]

VERY COOL STUFF!!:rockon:

Mick, I have installed the (.rar) file into the location you specified and have downloaded the tune also. I can't open the tune. Any thoughts. EDIT: Do I need to change the program that will open it to something other than (EFILive tune tool)?

P.S. I am a computer dork, so go easy on me.:)

[hquick]

Jeff....thats my current tune.
Just save the .cax file to program files/efilive/v7.5/calibrations
Then open my tune and have a look at engine calibrations and go to the bottom of the list. Transient Fuel should be there.

[GMPX]

Thanks Mick, good work, this is what .cax files are all about, those in the know who want to spend the time can really expand on what we offer. Good luck guys.
Should we consider making a new forum section for people to share .cax files? It might make it easier to track if several people are working on them.

Cheers,
Ross

[Lextech]

Hey Howard,

I'm not getting the Transcient fuel tables. I downloaded your tune from your post and Micks' post. Your tune from your post will open, but doesn't have any Transcient Fuel Tables below the Torque Limiting and Traction Control.:nixweiss:

Jeff

[hquick]

Hmmm...can't see what the issue is Jeff. You did save the .cax file to 'program files' and not 'my documents' ???

[hquick]

So...this is what your folder should look like under C:\Program Files\EFILive\V7.5\Calibrations

[Lextech]

Mine looks like that.

[joecar]

Will this work with 12202088 and 12212156...?

[hquick]

Mick's working on it Joe.

So....does it work now Jeff???

Ross....that extra forum section might be a good idea. There's alot of smart people one here and collectively they may all be able to help get what we all want.

[MICK]

Will this work with 12202088 and 12212156...?


Joe,

It will work for operating systems 12202088 and 12208233.

You just have to rename the .cax file accordingly.

Cheers

Mick

[MICK]

Hey Howard,

I'm not getting the Transcient fuel tables. I downloaded your tune from your post and Micks' post. Your tune from your post will open, but doesn't have any Transcient Fuel Tables below the Torque Limiting and Traction Control.:nixweiss:

Jeff



Jeff,

Try installing the .cax file into Caibrations/ LS1B/ Custom Folder as well and see how you go.

Cheers

Mick

[Lextech]

Hey Guys,

I installed it to LS1b, still NO luck. Could we possibly do this through PMs. I don't want to crud up the thread with my issue.

Thanks Guys, Jeff

[dc_justin]

Lex,

Rename the file to your OS name... 02020003.cax or whichever COS3 OS you happen to be using right now and it should work.

Justin

[joecar]

MICK,

Thanks, I got those tables to show up on my 12202088.

Does this only work for the 12202088/12208233/COS3 family...?

How do I make it work for 12212156/COS5...?

Thanks,
Joe

[ringram]

Also seen some "unoffical" cax files for lean cruise on US OS's too..
Cool feature set.

[joecar]

Howard,

Oh, I just saw your email... thanks.

Joe
:D

[GMPX]

Ross....that extra forum section might be a good idea. There's alot of smart people one here and collectively they may all be able to help get what we all want.

Done:
http://forum.efilive.com/forumdisplay.php?f=74

[redhardsupra]

anyone gonna do a writeup on how to use this stuff?

[MICK]

Marcin that's your job....LOL

I can help if you like.

Cheers

Mick

[GMPX]

You know what is scary, we've had these .cax files implemented since early 2006 !

Mick, OT, what is the pic of your Avatar from?

[redhardsupra]

whaa? i dont know anything about it, that's why i'm asking. if someone explains it to me i can formalize it a bit i guess.

[GMPX]

Marcin, best bet is to have a look at the sample .cax file (see the Read Me First in the newly created forum).

Cheers,
Ross

[JezzaB]

Very cool Mick. Good to have a look at a .cax file. Been wanting to have a look for a while.

Jez

[hquick]

anyone gonna do a writeup on how to use this stuff?

I can get as much info as my GM buddy can legally tell me. Basic stuff....no proprietry info.



CONTENT EDITED BY EFILIVE, SEE NEXT POST

[GMPX]

ok guys, first and only warning.

"I can get as much info as possible from my GM buddy."

If GM has not given him permission to give you this stuff and post it publicly then leave it off here, we will be deleting all posts like that instantly. Remember, this is a public forum.

Cheers,
Ross

[hquick]

I can understand the issue with my post Ross. Sorry for the hassle.
My buddy has told me in the past he can only tell me stuff which is NOT going to get him into trouble.
I guess I should explain my position better and the wording of my post was not the greatest. I always ask him what I can and can't post and the only info I get from him is basic tips. Nothing GM specific.

[MICK]

You know what is scary, we've had these .cax files implemented since early 2006 !

Mick, OT, what is the pic of your Avatar from?


Ross, have you ever seen the movie Poltergiest?

I found a colour pic and converted it to black and white then cliped it.

When I was a little younger that movie just worked me over.

:)

[hquick]

Gonna start a new thread in the CAX file section.