PLX install completed in preparation for Flashscan!

[AllCammedUp]

Well gang, it took me a little bit to get done, but I've gone ahead and finished the wide-band install in my 'vette.

Here's a summary of what was done:


Drop exhaust and weld in bung in off-road pipe for WB mounting
Mount WB on passenger side, but can swap it to driver's side (with some effort) by swapping the straight pipes from side-to-side
Run all new wires for switched (and relay-protected/fused) power inside cabin and wire up the wide-band (and my shift light! :))
Mount PLX AFR gauge and shift-light in Autometer dual-pod on A-pillar
Mount PLX controller in glove box
run wide-band and narrow-band outputs to center console for attachment to Flashscan controller

Everything seems to work really well and I'm really happy with the install, even if it did take a good bit of time to complete. I had the car up on jackstands for a few weeks, as I did the whole job by myself on my back. I've posted some highlight pictures here, as well, just in case anyone else wants to use this for ideas.

Special thanks goes to Ross (GMPX) and Steve Bryant for answering the many questions on the 'wide-band' thread! Cheers guys!

[AllCammedUp]

Welded-in bung in my FLP off-road pipe for the PLX WB sensor

[AllCammedUp]

wide-band mounted in passenger side

[AllCammedUp]

Mount PLX AFR gauge and shift-light in Autometer dual-pod on A-pillar. I installed toggle switches on each one so I can turn off the shift light or the AFR gauge when I don't want to be bothered by them. The shift light isn't such a big deal, but the AFR gague has no backlight and no contrast adjustment, so it's constantly osciallating while the car is running, and at night, it'd be nice to not to have to look at it. :)

[AllCammedUp]

PLX controller in the glove box - all nice and snug and out of plain sight. ;)

[AllCammedUp]

Additional wide-band (blue) and narrow-band (red) outputs run to center console to be hooked up to the Flashscan interface once it ships!

I think that at this point, I'm ready to do some serious logging and tuning!! :)

[87gmc]

:shock: sweet

[dissonance]

did you use the LSU4 sensor? if not what sensor is that?

i'm looking at buying one of the DIY kits with the LSU4 sensor

[Steve Bryant]

Whitney,

Your installation looks really nice. Excellent job!

Steve

[AllCammedUp]

Thanks for the responses, guys! I just wanted to get something out there for others to see, as this isn't your 'typical' mod, and I thought the pictures might help others if they attempt the same thing.

Dissonance - Yes, the sensor is a Bosch LSU4.2 wide-band sensor. Here's the actual unit I bought:

http://www.plxdevices.com/M-Series_productinfo.htm

[jfpilla]

Welded-in bung in my FLP off-road pipe for the PLX WB sensor

It looks as if you have the sensor in the 9 or 3 o'clock position. Suggest you turn the pipe to have the sensor in the 10 or 2 o'clock position. That will keep condensation from damaging it.
Nice setup. You do really neat work.

[AllCammedUp]

Thanks for the kind words, jfpilla - I do appreciate it. I took my time and wire-tied everything that I could find and everywhere I thought it was needed. The install took a long time, but it looks to be solid. I've got enough switched 12v power in the cabin now to run a small refrigerator! :) LOL.

The sensor is actually installed at about the '2:30' position - it's just hard to tell that from the picture.

[98redformula]

All Cammed Up,

My compliments on the installation. It looks very nice and well done. I do however want to add one word of caution in regards to your power switches and turning off the power supply to the wideband sensor while driving at night. I also own a wideband O2 sensor system based on the Bosch LSU4.2 sensor and understand the distraction created by the oscillating guage. The installation instructions for my system indicate that the engine should not be run without power supplied to the sensor. I am not intimately familiar with the inner workings of the sensor, or why this warning is placed, but I believe that it relates to ensuring that the heating element in the sensor has power and that the sensor is at the proper temperature. Turning off the power while running your engine may shorten your sensor's lifespan. I only post in the hopes of preventing an early failure of your sensor. You may already be aware of this issue and have corrected for it, but if not, I thought you might like to know.
Best regards,
98 red formula

[AllCammedUp]

All Cammed Up,

My compliments on the installation. It looks very nice and well done. I do however want to add one word of caution in regards to your power switches and turning off the power supply to the wideband sensor while driving at night. I also own a wideband O2 sensor system based on the Bosch LSU4.2 sensor and understand the distraction created by the oscillating guage. The installation instructions for my system indicate that the engine should not be run without power supplied to the sensor. I am not intimately familiar with the inner workings of the sensor, or why this warning is placed, but I believe that it relates to ensuring that the heating element in the sensor has power and that the sensor is at the proper temperature. Turning off the power while running your engine may shorten your sensor's lifespan. I only post in the hopes of preventing an early failure of your sensor. You may already be aware of this issue and have corrected for it, but if not, I thought you might like to know.
Best regards,
98 red formula

Thanks for the warning, but I've already got this covered. It's only the AFR gauge, and not the actual WB controller itself that is on the toggle switch. I wanted a configuration that allows for the WB to always run (and it does - it's on ignition-switched power w/ a relay), but for me to have the luxury of not looking at the gauge when I didn't want to. If the gauge is powered off, then I can always flip down the glove-box and look at the display on the WB controller.... to me it's the best of both worlds!

[mistermike]

That's a great looking setup! I'm interested in what factored into your choice of the PLX. Many folks wanting stand alone data logging capability naturally would choose the LM-1 based on cost. Since we're datalogging with EFILive, it really doesn't matter if the controller has this capability. Personally I like the packaging of the PLX, particularly for in car mounting. The handheld look of the LM-1 doesn't really lend itself to a nice looking installation. The PLX has ability to substitute the NBO2, but from what I've heard, no one has been able to get this to work with LS-1's due to some issue with DC bias on the grounds or something like that.
Anyhow, were there any issues of quality or performance that favored the PLX over the LM-1 or the AEM? I sure wish someone made an affordable 2 channel model. Thanks. :D

[AllCammedUp]

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the comments. I chose the PLX based on recommendations from others here on this forum. After seeing how the PLX is constructed and how it works, I can say that I am totally satisfied with the capabilities and the workmanship of the product. I really like how the PLX has the additional outputs for signal/voltage for the WB and the NB, and is such a 'clean' looking setup. I really don't care about the fact that it doesn't datalog (they have versions that will, but I didn't buy up that far), as EFILive w/ the Flashscan cable will be able to do so.

[Steve Bryant]

Here's a composite picture of the method that I ended-up using to install my PLX-300. I decided initially that I would make it portable and to where It could be easily installed or uninstalled. The aluminum angle hooks into the defroster and the gage is mounted to the aluminum plate with Velcro. It has a foam rubber pad under the aluminum sheet to prevent rattles, scratches and to make it more non-skid. I soldered extension 22 AWG (.5 mm2)wires on (Radio Shack speaker wire) for the NBO2 emulator output and the 0-5 VDC WBO2.

Steve

[Bruce Melton]

[quote=" The PLX has ability to substitute the NBO2, but from what I've heard, no one has been able to get this to work with LS-1's due to some issue with DC bias on the grounds or something like that. :D[/quote]

I am getting ready to buy a Zeitronix or PLX and plan on a permenent single sensor install on a C5. Any futher insight into the PCM interface?

[Steve Bryant]

Yes,

Here's a simplified diagram that I drew up a few months ago to show the very thing that you're talking about http://www.efilive.com/doc/wbo2install.pdf. You can use a 20 Ohm resistor in place of an old Narrow Band Oxygen Sensor. However, then you have to mount it somewhere and do more wiring etc. Look the drawing over and ask more questions. I'll upgrade the drawing into about a three skeet installation instruction in the near future. I'll be glad to help you with alternate suggestions for a permanent installation as I do this kind of thing for a living in my day job as an avionics (aviation electronics) engineer.

1. Would you want to mount a round gage on the A Pillar of your Corvette? If you want to reference the AFR as you drive (especially under hard acceleration) it needs to be somewhere in your primary field of vision so as to not interfere with your driving and yet you don't have to take your eyes off the road to see it.

2. Describe your installation goals a little more as to how you want it to look esthetically, etc.

Note: I believe that all of the WBO2 controllers on the market are pretty comparable in accuracy. Most of them use the same Bosch sensor.

All my best,

Steve

[Bruce Melton]

Steve,
Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.
I am looking to tune with FlashScan and the WB. I have quite a few mods and will contunue with them so want to be able to tune DIY. I do not need cockpit guage unless it is almost free, as in PLX 300. Will use laptop.
In that we are running closed loop most of the time my goal is to run normally with the shared wideband sensor feeding the PCM for closed loop and then having the ability to plug in for datalogging thru FlashScan. Like Allcammedup above but w/o second sensor installed.

I have saved your drawing and think I understand it. Where is the NB02 output coming from? The block in the lower right is part of the Zeitronics or PLX supplied gear? I have heard that this output does not satisfy the PCM for CL operation?

PS >see your big Airstream and know they are relatively light but how light?

Thanks,
Bruce

[Steve Bryant]

Steve,
Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.
I am looking to tune with FlashScan and the WB. I have quite a few mods and will contunue with them so want to be able to tune DIY. I do not need cockpit guage unless it is almost free, as in PLX 300. Will use laptop.
In that we are running closed loop most of the time my goal is to run normally with the shared wideband sensor feeding the PCM for closed loop and then having the ability to plug in for datalogging thru FlashScan. Like Allcammedup above but w/o second sensor installed.

I have saved your drawing and think I understand it. Where is the NB02 output coming from? The block in the lower right is part of the Zeitronics or PLX supplied gear? I have heard that this output does not satisfy the PCM for CL operation?

Bruce,
The unidentified block in the lower right of the diagram is the Wide Band Oxygen Sensor Cort roller (just assume that it's generic but I had the PLX-250/300 in mind when I drew it). The connections for the system are:
1. 12 Volt DC Power
2. WBO2 Sensor Output (installed in a pre-cat bung).
3. 0-5 Volt DC Analog Output to the logging device (FlashScan)
4. Narrow Band DC Output (emulator of your normal NBO2 Sensor). This output is designed to work just like the NBO2 Sensor and your PCM won't know the difference. Note: A 20 Ohm resistor of some type is needed to emulate/simulate/replace the heater circuit in the NBO2 sensor so that the PCM doesn't flag the absence of a good NBO2 heater as a problem or diagnostic trouble code (DTC). Now, you could deactivate the DTC in one of the Engine Diagnostic tables in the Tune Software of EFILive V7. However, this drawing that I made follows the intent of the PLX folks.


PS >see your big Airstream and know they are relatively light but how light?
Thanks,
Bruce

My Airstream is a 1991 50th Anniversary Model that I have owned for the last two years. It's aerodynamic and maybe relatively light in weight. However, the empty weight on the trailer is approximately 8,600 pounds. Add that to an empty weight (full fuel) on my 3/4 ton 4X4 Yukon XL of 6,900 pounds and you have a formidable amount of mass to move around. The amazing thing is, the LQ4 6.0 L does a good job of it all. I want to optimize the torque in the 2,500 to 4,500 range with a custom cam and then in a couple of years I plan to bore it .030" to 4.030" and put a 4.00" crank in it for a total of 408 CID. I can get lots of HP out of this engine now, but torque is king with my vehicle and its intended use.

Steve

[Bruce Melton]

Guess I will try it and see what happens. I assume the Bosch is heated, if so, can the car's NB02 heater leads be used to power the Bosch WB sensor thus eliminating the resistor or NB hook up?
Thanks again,
Bruce

[Dirk Diggler]

Bruce I would skip the Zeitronix and find soemthing that has a linear output.

PLX, DynoJect, FJO, LM1 are the ones that come to mind

[Bruce Melton]

Guess I will try it and see what happens. I assume the Bosch is heated, if so, can the car's NB02 heater leads be used to power the Bosch WB sensor thus eliminating the resistor or NB hook up?
Thanks again,
Bruce

Dirk,
My assumption was that Zeitronics has a comparable simulated NB output. If they do not then PLX it is! Makes the decision easy.

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

Bruce

[mistermike]

I have heard on one of the LS1 boards (I forget which) that the NBO2 emulation doesn't work particularly well with LS1, due to some kind of bias or offset in the grounds. Nonetheless, I would LOVE to see a Plain Jane, dual channel WBO2 controller with NB02 simm, 0-5V output, no logging, no display. I have to believe there could be a considerable economy packaging both channels in one box, since packaging and other non PCB related costs frequently dominate the production cost of modern electronics. Doubling the chipcount shouldn't double the price.

[AllCammedUp]

Guess I will try it and see what happens. I assume the Bosch is heated, if so, can the car's NB02 heater leads be used to power the Bosch WB sensor thus eliminating the resistor or NB hook up?
Thanks again,
Bruce

Dirk,
My assumption was that Zeitronics has a comparable simulated NB output. If they do not then PLX it is! Makes the decision easy.

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

Bruce


Hey guys - one other thing to keep in mind is that Flashscan should work fine with any WB that can supply the proper voltages to the adapter and you should be able to log the data if you know the formula used to decode the voltage reading. Flashscan is already pre-configured for the PLX, so it'll work fine out of the box.

[Dirk Diggler]

I have heard on one of the LS1 boards (I forget which) that the NBO2 emulation doesn't work particularly well with LS1, due to some kind of bias or offset in the grounds. Nonetheless, I would LOVE to see a Plain Jane, dual channel WBO2 controller with NB02 simm, 0-5V output, no logging, no display. I have to believe there could be a considerable economy packaging both channels in one box, since packaging and other non PCB related costs frequently dominate the production cost of modern electronics. Doubling the chipcount shouldn't double the price.


FJO offeres a Dual WB setup www.fjoracing.com

[Dirk Diggler]

Guess I will try it and see what happens. I assume the Bosch is heated, if so, can the car's NB02 heater leads be used to power the Bosch WB sensor thus eliminating the resistor or NB hook up?
Thanks again,
Bruce

Dirk,
My assumption was that Zeitronics has a comparable simulated NB output. If they do not then PLX it is! Makes the decision easy.

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

Bruce


Hey guys - one other thing to keep in mind is that Flashscan should work fine with any WB that can supply the proper voltages to the adapter and you should be able to log the data if you know the formula used to decode the voltage reading. Flashscan is already pre-configured for the PLX, so it'll work fine out of the box.


There is a thread on the other site with people who are having problems/inconsistencies with the formulas provided by Zeitronix. Their tech support cant even get it right with their own product. Black02SS can chime in with a little more information. I KNOW he want to burn his POS Zeitronix WB.


I have the new FJO system that has both linear(0-5,0-1,5-0,1-0) and non linear outputs and it works flawlessly only drawback to that system is it uses the NTK L1H1 and its 169 to replace. The other WB manufacters use teh Bosch LSU4

[GMPX]

Remember EFILive can have calculated PID's, Blacky has already helped out somebody who's WBO2 was not supported in another product.

Many GM PCM's have a 'floating' ground as such on the O2 inputs.
I must confess, I've never fed the simulated signal into the PCM, but I did log it using an A/D input and comparing it to the real sensor and it was very good.

Cheers,
Ross

[warpster]

Another WBo2 option....

Tech Edge WB02 Lambda Meters
http://wbo2.com/

Source for Bosch LSU4 sensor VW part number 021-906-262-B $38.29 :)
https://www.1stvwparts.com/partscat.html

[Bruce Melton]

I went with the PLX 300 like my leader> A.C.U. If it does not work as I envision, you'll hear more.

Bring on the FlashScan!

Thanks for the help.

Bruce

[mistermike]

Remember EFILive can have calculated PID's, Blacky has already helped out somebody who's WBO2 was not supported in another product.

Many GM PCM's have a 'floating' ground as such on the O2 inputs.
I must confess, I've never fed the simulated signal into the PCM, but I did log it using an A/D input and comparing it to the real sensor and it was very good.

Cheers,
Ross
I don't suppose it would be terribly hard to whip up a circuit with a differential output that could drive the PCM if need be. Any idea what the impedance of the PCM O2 inputs might be?

[AllCammedUp]

I went with the PLX 300 like my leader> A.C.U. If it does not work as I envision, you'll hear more.

Bring on the FlashScan!

Thanks for the help.

Bruce


You'll love it, Bruce. It's about as easy of an integration as I think anyone could ask for (between the wide-band and the software).

[Bruce Melton]

I went with the PLX 300 like my leader> A.C.U. If it does not work as I envision, you'll hear more.

Bring on the FlashScan!

Thanks for the help.

Bruce


You'll love it, Bruce. It's about as easy of an integration as I think anyone could ask for (between the wide-band and the software).

I like it back here, following you. I use your PLX choice so it works with your dashboard which of course I use, and our cars have similar mods so-- well you get the idea.

[AllCammedUp]

I like it back here, following you. I use your PLX choice so it works with your dashboard which of course I use, and our cars have similar mods so-- well you get the idea.

Well, I appreciate the compliment, but I'm in the same boat as you - just trying to see what all works and what doesn't. Fortunately, I've learned to listen to the sage wisdom that members here have.

[Steve Bryant]

I don't suppose it would be terribly hard to whip up a circuit with a differential output that could drive the PCM if need be. Any idea what the impedance of the PCM O2 inputs might be?

I don't know what the input impedance is but I'm sure that it is high like on the order of 100 k ohms or so. That way, it doesn't load down the sensor output by demanding much current from the NBO2 and it makes the over power consumption of the PCM more efficient. Now, the PCM is only looking for some sort of fluctuating voltage that averages about a 50:50 split above and below the stoichiometric switchover point of about .450 mV (as I recall). The PCM is just looking at the trend line of this bouncing voltage to set up the STFT values to keep the AFR at approximately 14.7:1.

I feel certain that most WBO2 controllers can accurately emulate the NBO2 voltage swings. However, if on some PCM's the O2 output voltage is supposed to be referenced at something other than chassis/earth ground, this could cause a problem. I wouldn't fool around with trying to construct a circuit until I knew that the PLX M-300 wouldn't work. By the way, I really like my M-300. Ross (GMPX) made the find initially and he did good in my book.

Steve

[Tordne]

Can I ask a few questions to clarify?

1) Is it best to keep the standard NB02 sensor and install a WB02 as an addition?

or

2) Does the WB02 sensor (with correct resistance etc.) work as well, or better than the standard NB02?

If the WB02 can also do NB satisfactorily I guess it would have to be a tidier, and possible simpler install than having both NB and WB sensors?

Steve Bryant: It appears that your diagram wbo2install.pdf (http://www.efilive.com/doc/wbo2install.pdf) is using the WB02 for both WB and NB, and I presume this must be working OK?

3) On the Holden LS1's there are 2 NB02 sensors. How would a single WB02 sensor replace those?

Thanks in advance,
Andrew.

[Bruce Melton]

Tordne,
I was where you are a few months ago and think this is a very noble subject and or project.. I did just put in a second bung because I will at least initially run a dedicated PLX wideband.
Why?
I could not find a first hand user that was running a dual purpose WB/NB applicatin on a LSx. It is referenced as doable but those who tried it gave up.
Seems there are local ground issues.

I am not as clever as the best guys here for sure, but I am not sure anyone here has made it work either.

I will try it later after I tune with a dedicated WB.

I hope you do it and make it work cause I am right behind you all the way.
Bruce

[Steve Bryant]

Tordne and Bruce,

Although I drew the diagram as you see, I actually ended up having an extra bung welded in the left exhaust pipe just after the NBO2 sensor by a few inches. A couple of guys have written e-mails or PM's to me and say that they are using the emulated NBO2 output from the WBO2 and it works just fine.

Regards,

Steve

[Tordne]

I was planning on leaving both the NB02 sensors in place and getting two additional bungs put in, so I could potentially move the WB02 sensor between pipes.

I am still quite happy to run with this setup, but will it be complicated to wire up? I'm not sure if I am trying to make this too complicated (not being an electrical type and all)...

I am looking at the PLX-250... Does the WB02 sensor actually have to be wired up to the cars electronics, or can it just be connected to its own controller and subsequently connected directly to FlashScan?

Cheers,
Andrew.

[Steve Bryant]

Andrew,

The PLX or any WBO2 operates completely independent from any engine control electronics. Unless you are placing the WBO2 sensor in the bung normally intended for the factory NBO2 and using the emulated NBO2 output from the WBO2 controller as my drawing depicted; the only connection to the vehicle's electronics is via a cigarette lighter socket or the like for 12 Volt DC power. It's just like any other 12 V accessory that you might run off your vehicle electrical system like a CD Changer or something similar.

I initially had two extra bungs welded into my exhaust system (a left and a right) and took the bung plugs in along with some anti-seize compound to put on the threads. The guy who welded them in did an excellent welding job but he wouldn't let me stay there in the shop claiming insurance restrictions (which is probably true). Anyway, I asked him to apply the anti-seize liberally and he said to keep mine because he had some there in the shop and off I went into the customer waiting room. Afterwards, he told me that he just put the plugs in snug, but not tight. Well, the next day I crawled under my truck and tried to remove first one, then the other plug to no avail. They were stuck solid with no evidence of anti-seize. I went back to the shop and told them of my dilemma. Several of the muffler technicians tried to get them loose, heating them with a torch and cursing madly. Then they said that they were just stuck for good and welded in another bung on the left side and put my WBO2 sensor in. This time, I brushed on the anti-seize. Sorry for the rant, but I'm still upset and this was three months ago.

Anyway, by watching the outputs from the two NBO2 sensors and the injector duty cycles, etc, everything is balanced and I'm really not concerned about monitoring the left versus the right.

All my best,

Steve


PS
One other thing. I was really tempted to buy the M-250 and I'm so glad that I didn't. It turns out that I watch the M-300 a lot, traffic permitting because I'm keenly aware of the fact that I'm trying to tune the beast to it's optimum.

[Bruce Melton]

Andrew,
Steve is right and the PLX 300 is not much more. Not sure how you can order from Auk but:
https://www.forced-air.com/index.php?action=view_detail&product=64

[Tordne]

Thank you both for your replies.

I was kind of getting myself confused by reading through some of these long threads. There seemed to be some discussion about the WB replacing the NB also.

It is only after my first post that I thought "wait a minute, why do I need to worry about this?".

I was planning to hide the controller for the PLX out of sight (glove box), but I know what you mean, $30 is nothing.

Now I just need to convince the wife, my car has cost me some decent coin the last couple of months (damn just being out of warranty).

Thanks again everyone.

[Bruce Melton]

"Now I just need to convince the wife, my car has cost me some decent coin the last couple of months (damn just being out of warranty).

Thanks again everyone"

You are on your own there!

[Tordne]

Damn, I was hoping that you could talk to her for me :wink:

Anyway, I made a good case and my PLX is on its way. Can’t wait to get down to doing some “serious” tuning.

[mr.prick]

does anyone remember this? :hihi:
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/06/WidebandShootout/index.php
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/06/WidebandShootout/images/chart_lg.jpg