Thank You EFILive!

[SinisterSS]

Customer's results today for a 2005 CTS-V:

Green line is stock GM calibration.
Blue line is my tune, pull #1.
Red line is my tune, pull #2.

Ignore the crappy tail pipe O2 reading as it is not accurate

Thank you for providing the wonderful tools in V7.

This customer's trims are -1.49% across the board.

:D

http://www.stealthv.com/images/SVE_dyno2.jpg

[SinisterSS]

Another CTS-V customer picked up 6/10ths in the quarter mile...and set a personal best of 12.917 @ 109.34 tonight.

http://www.stealthv.com/images/HD_19aug2005.jpg

[SSbaby]

You can do better with the tune judging from that dyno graph. The engine is still runnning very rich. The LS6 requires PULP so you might as well go more aggressive on the AFRs. Anywhere between 12.5-12.8 is a very safe target.

[SinisterSS]

Ignore the crappy tail pipe O2 reading...it doesn't match the wideband pre-cat.

The calibration is right on the money and what is commanded is produced. Via the wideband O2 pre-cat, she's lean and mean... The Aussies would be saying "Put some fuel to that thing already!" :shock: :D

A repeatable + 40 / 30 FT-LBS...on a LS6 that has never been cracked open --- the AFR is staying right where it is. 8)

[Dirk Diggler]

I seen the same thing happen on the dyno by me. Dialed the car in for 13.0 went to the dyno and their WB read 13.7 at the beginning of the pull and got progresively richer....

[Highlander]

Yeap... me too... that happened to me also

[amg]

Wideband AFR sampling from the tailpipe will display a leaner reading than what is occuring at/near the engine ahead of the catalysts. Knowing that, the engine in these graphs is running richer than what is displayed, which makes the condition worse.

Also~
Why was this vehicle's power fugures displayed in STD?
Why not use the industry-wide, accepted SAE standards to display power figures that everyone else in the industry can relate and compare to?

The only real reason why folks choose to use STD or Uncorrected figures is to "fluff" up the numbers for bragging rights or to sell parts like the manufacturers do. Cold Air Kit manufacturers are the worst offenders of this.

Incorrect or skewed data by using STD or Uncorrected power measurement is meaningless for comparison if everyone else is using a different standard than you. (SAE)


-Roland

[SinisterSS]

Agree, STD is not the preferred but that is what the customer sent me. (SAE is only 2% lower...)

The tailpipe AFR on the dyno is not showing the correct AFR. This car was wideband O2 dialed in with an extra bung before the cat to perfection.

[amg]

2% is a lot on a 400+ BHP engine.

I'm not here cheerlead for anyone~ Just here to learn and state what I saw as inaccurate/skewed information based on my direct experience.

BTW- "EFI Live Is Great"....

-Roland

[SinisterSS]

In SAE numbers, the tune gained 47.3 hp / 35.5 ft-lbs over factory.

With a wideband before the cat, the AFR is 12.5 to 13.0 with textbook precision where it needs to be rich and lean.

[TAQuickness]

I think it effing great Sinister.

A dyno is nothing more than a tool to measure horsepower. It doesn't really matter what standard you use, SAE, STD, OMGWTFIT! So long as you use the same dyno under the same conditions for your tuning, you will be able to measure your results. Sinisters results are pretty bad ass!

[amg]

Do or say as you please, it's your customer..

I do however find it interesting to see how some folks react to someone outside questioning there work. Some get defensive and take it personal, yet some take it in stride and ask "why" for the "why".

No malice intended with my questioning because that's what engineers do, (it's our job) but still an interesting observation anyway...

BTW~
"purchase EFFILive (I bet you don't own it) and learn how to tune the right way at any throttle position."

I'll take that bet and that is a very wide assumption that often backfires. :)

-Roland

[SinisterSS]

This calibration is loved by customers and backs it up with results on the track and street as well.

[SinisterSS]

Do or say as you please, it's your customer..

I do however find it interesting to see how some folks react to someone outside questioning there work. Some get defensive and take it personal, yet some take it in stride and ask "why" for the "why".

No malice intended with my questioning because that's what engineers do, (it's our job) but still an interesting observation anyway...


-Roland

The tail pipe AFR doesn't match the pre-cat AFR. There are many reasons why and the pre-cat is to what this vehicle is tuned.

Yes, there are STD to SAE differences. The tune is accurate due to the AutoVE and other EFILive tools and works extremely well.

Cheers

[amg]

Wow.... You really need to relax and quite taking this so personal and name calling never looks good on anyone.

Just like you once, I'm new here and my post count is not where yours is, but that doesn't mean I'm a "troll" as you so eloquently put it and none of may posts here have been of the "bashing" type~ whatever that means.

Just questioning data, that's all. If no one ever asked "why" in society, than we would still be in the dark ages..


-Roland

[SinisterSS]

My apologies, I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. :?

[joecar]

The point here is that (regardless of SAE, DIN, STD, or whatever) a stock LS6 ("never cracked open") was re-tuned using EFILive and the delta is +47 HP
(using a single method consistently allowed him to measure the delta; if he had used SAE he would have still gotten the same delta).

This is money well spent and he hasn't even started to get his hands dirty yet; good work Rick.

:D
:peeling_rubber:

[amg]

The point here is that (regardless of SAE, DIN, STD, or whatever) a stock LS6 ("never cracked open") was re-tuned using EFILive and the delta is +47 HP

I concur and the delta gain was never questioned in any of my posts. The method of power figure comparison against an industry standard was however. That is very important to point out no matter what the subject matter is, venue, control, etc.

I'm in the aircraft industry where we design and implement a multitude of gas-turbine based turboprop, turbofan and turboshaft engines (all basically the same thing) for helicopters, hovercraft, armored military track-link vehicle applications, etc. We as an engineering firm are commonly critiqued by outside, third-party agencies regarding our design and that practice is accepted and welcome. This is quite common in this industry and not only quantifies the engineering we've done to be sound, but also adds redundancy to the design so nothing is "missed" during the "pencil & paper" phase as we call it.

I'm sure most of you who have ever flown in any type of commercial or private aircraft will appreciate that redundancy of checks & balances. I know I do every time I step off a plane that has taken off under full power and then landed safely back to the ground....


My questioning process of this data is/was using the same principles I implement at work every day and as long as I'm breathing air, I'll ALWAYS question data when it vears from an industry standard everyone is familiar with, in an effort to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Harmess questions, that's all.


-Roland

[SSbaby]

In SAE numbers, the tune gained 47.3 hp / 35.5 ft-lbs over factory.

With a wideband before the cat, the AFR is 12.5 to 13.0 with textbook precision where it needs to be rich and lean.

Purfect. Don't change a thing! :D

I guess you already knew that! :D

Cheers

[joecar]

amg, that's okay, harmless question, I'm an engineer (electrical) too so I know what what our types are like ("...we split not hairs but atoms..." :lol: ).
Cheers
Joe
:D :D

[GMPX]

The calibration is right on the money and what is commanded is produced. Via the wideband O2 pre-cat, she's lean and mean... The Aussies would be saying "Put some fuel to that thing already!" :shock: :D

Don't blame us, we got influenced by this American guy who keeps showing up down here running tuning courses :wink:

Nice to see a CTS-V into the 12's, plus, they also hosed the car in the other lane nicely. Good one Rick :D

Cheers,
Ross

[Black LS1 T/A]

Do or say as you please, it's your customer..

I do however find it interesting to see how some folks react to someone outside questioning there work. Some get defensive and take it personal, yet some take it in stride and ask "why" for the "why".

No malice intended with my questioning because that's what engineers do, (it's our job) but still an interesting observation anyway...

BTW~
"purchase EFFILive (I bet you don't own it) and learn how to tune the right way at any throttle position."

I'll take that bet and that is a very wide assumption that often backfires. :)

-Roland

Acutally, reading this post, Sinister has been gracious and tried to explain exactly what's going on and you come off as being, well... even to put it delicately... anal. :?

You COULD be mistaken, given you don't have all the details. You seem to make assumptions based on your experience and lack of complete information Sinister is privy to concerning this vehicle. Nothing is absolute, no one is perfect. :)

[amg]

You're right, I could be wrong given the information that was posted and that is why I asked the questions I did, but I will never quit being anal about anything associated with the engineering/design field.

Let me ask you this~ Would you rather have the engineers that design and build the products you use everyday in one way or another be anal in nature when doing their job properly for your benefit or would you just settle to have them say "well, that looks close enough" and call it good?? Most folks will reply yes to that statement, some will still deny it or change the subject just to be argumentative and some just don't care until that product or service negatively affects their life, for which then they "sue" to make others responsible for their poor actions/choices.

The next time you take a plane flight, drive a car, shave in the morning, drink a glass of water, flush your toilet, etc, etc, etc, ask yourself~ am I willing to settle for an engineer/designer of this product that made this possible be "anal" or just "mundane" in character/work ethics for my benefit??

I'd bet the designers of this superior calibration software are "anal" in their approach to make it function properly, as any good designer would. They obviously are because their product's success is a testiment to that. There is no room for error and I'm quite sure if they designed this product with hap-hazard engineering that only partially worked half of the time, you all would be screaming about it and demanding perfection. (a la LS1 Edit)


It's really quit simple to understand really and if the rest of you wish to take information at face value in the face of dis-similar comparison values (what ever and where ever the venue) just because the author of that information "says" it's good, so be it. I will not and will never do such a thing, for by continuing to do so, one can often get to the bottom of foggy information.

Wow, it's very interesting indeed to see how some of you react to simple questioning... No wonder there is so much garbage and miss-information floating around on the internet. No one respectfully challenges anyone elses' information, right or wrong and if they do, they're negatively attacked for it..

The bottom line is this: By asking the questions I did, I got down to the nuts & bolts of the post~ even though I was attacked and called names for it. Purpose served and that comes with the territory sometimes for which I have broad shoulders for. This is NOTHING like we get grilled for in my industry....

As stated before, no disrespect intended, nor was there ever so take the information as you wish.


-Roland

[TAQuickness]

Roland -
There is no harm in asking questions and challanging face value. But you stepped into this one on the wrong foot. Re-read your original post.


Wideband AFR sampling from the tailpipe will display a leaner reading than what is occuring at/near the engine ahead of the catalysts. Knowing that, the engine in these graphs is running richer than what is displayed, which makes the condition worse.

Also~
Why was this vehicle's power fugures displayed in STD?
Why not use the industry-wide, accepted SAE standards to display power figures that everyone else in the industry can relate and compare to?

The only real reason why folks choose to use STD or Uncorrected figures is to "fluff" up the numbers for bragging rights or to sell parts like the manufacturers do. Cold Air Kit manufacturers are the worst offenders of this.

Incorrect or skewed data by using STD or Uncorrected power measurement is meaningless for comparison if everyone else is using a different standard than you. (SAE)


-Roland

I don't care what side of anal engineering you come from - the above is not simple questioning. Had you skipped this part:



The only real reason why folks choose to use STD or Uncorrected figures is to "fluff" up the numbers for bragging rights or to sell parts like the manufacturers do. Cold Air Kit manufacturers are the worst offenders of this.

Incorrect or skewed data by using STD or Uncorrected power measurement is meaningless for comparison if everyone else is using a different standard than you. (SAE)


more of us might have taken your querries as harmless and pertinent to the thread.

[amg]

It's up to the reader of the post to decipher what is important, what is not and what is not worthy of even addressing in light of observing the main point of the topic. Additionally, emails and forum board posts often carry no significant emotion, or often miss-understood emotion at best, therefore; it's expression as read is subjective to the person's relative attitude/state of mind at the time of reading it and often misconstrued from the beginning.

I'm no different than anyone else in this area, but often times if I read something sent to me and it's upsetting at that particular moment, I'll certainly NOT respond right away until I've had a chance to step back, cool down and observe all sides of the issue so that I don't propogate further argumentative foolishness with no real subject content other than bickering.

In searching across the internet on different boards to learn a few things about the EFI engine management systems of my Z06 and AMG E55, I've found that most threads of intense discussion follow the path in the manner described above, including this one. Unfortunately everyone suffers because the thread vears off course from it's original content, everyone gets upset and nothing gets resolved or sorted out.

That's too bad too, because from what I've seen on all of these boards with some being definately FAR worse than this one, a LOT more would get accomplished if everyone would just leave their ego's at the door and discuss things respectfully in a professional environment. We have frequent video conference calls specifically designed to prevent this type of behavior from cropping up since everyone can see/hear each other face-to-face, as it were.

With that said, I'm going to drop this now so the subject at hand can be once again rejuvenated in the spirit of the original poster, who made his amends by changing his responses in his posts and apologizing a long time ago. Thank you BTW, but it was not necessary. I suggest others do the same for everyone's benefit, but ultimately the choice is yours.


-Roland

[urbanski]

Customer's results today for a 2005 CTS-V:

Green line is stock GM calibration.
Blue line is my tune, pull #1.
Red line is my tune, pull #2.

Ignore the crappy tail pipe O2 reading as it is not accurate

Thank you for providing the wonderful tools in V7.

This customer's trims are -1.49% across the board.

:D

http://www.stealthv.com/images/SVE_dyno2.jpg
that looks familiar :)

the header was too hot to put the WB02 on :( sry
lol

[urbanski]

Why was this vehicle's power fugures displayed in STD?
Why not use the industry-wide, accepted SAE standards to display power figures that everyone else in the industry can relate and compare to?

The only real reason why folks choose to use STD or Uncorrected figures is to "fluff" up the numbers for bragging rights or to sell parts like the manufacturers do. Cold Air Kit manufacturers are the worst offenders of this.

Incorrect or skewed data by using STD or Uncorrected power measurement is meaningless for comparison if everyone else is using a different standard than you. (SAE)


-Rolandholy cow chill out man

it was MY dyno, MY graph, and MY car...sorry i don't have the 3-run in SAE for you, i'm a complete freakin tool apparently eh....there was a 4HP difference (lower) with SAE. Can you subtract 4 from the HP numbers?? sure you can....

[amg]

Unfortunataly, my point exactly.....


-Roland

[TAQuickness]

Unfortunataly, my point exactly.....


-Roland

I thought you said you were done with this kind of crap?

yeah, just a few post up:


With that said, I'm going to drop this now so the subject at hand can be once again rejuvenated in the spirit of the original poster

Good ending

But:


, who made his amends by changing his responses in his posts and apologizing a long time ago. Thank you BTW, but it was not necessary. I suggest others do the same for everyone's benefit, but ultimately the choice is yours.
-Roland

If you don't have anything nice to say then STFU!

[amg]

I'll leave you folks to your own vices and it's far too bad that you all have brought this down this far... I will remain professional about the issue however, as I stated before.

BTW- Swearing....nice touch.

Good day folks.
-Roland

[SSpdDmon]

http://motownmuscle.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[GMPX]

http://motownmuscle.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

^^ Like the Emoticon :lol:

Sorry to see the thread has come to this, looks way too much like other forums now :cry:
Please don't leave Roland, Please......your input is appreciated by me at least.

Cheers,
Ross

[Black LS1 T/A]

Roland didn't say he was leaving... he's way too tuff for that! ;)
He ain't no quitter!

He's just letting THIS thread move forward... 8)

[joecar]

Does anyone know how we can have all those various emoticons made available for the EFILive forum...?

:peeling_rubber: :clinking_beer_mugs: :D

[Dirk Diggler]

what are those links in your post


cardizem
synthroid
phentermine

http://home.comcast.net/~lhas9978/spammer.jpg

[Dirk Diggler]

Does anyone know how we can have all those various emoticons made available for the EFILive forum...?

:peeling_rubber: :clinking_beer_mugs: :D

I know how to add them but would have to be given job as an admin to do so

[urbanski]

here you guys go
http://home.satx.rr.com/amdtbird/Dyno_Stock_To_StealthPower_19August2005.jpg

SAE corrected.

Bottom line....the original poster had to rely on ME for his data, and I actually am NOT a "car guy" and don't know SAE from STP from SATA....
the whole point is CHECK OUT THE GAINS!!! Holy cow, 48HP thanks to EFILive. To me its EFILove, lol. Thanks to everyone who contributes to the development of this software, and those who spend time calibrating and making happy blissfully stupid customers like me :)

[TAQuickness]

believe it or not, I need a biting tongue emoticon :)

[Black LS1 T/A]

....
the whole point is CHECK OUT THE GAINS!!! Holy cow, 48HP thanks to EFILive. To me its EFILove, lol. Thanks to everyone who contributes to the development of this software, and those who spend time calibrating and making happy blissfully stupid customers like me :)

AMAZING gains, with great software and an apparently great tuner as well! I'll buy THAT for a dollar! :mrgreen:

[GMPX]

Thanks to everyone who contributes to the development of this software, and those who spend time calibrating and making happy blissfully stupid customers like me :)

Hey, it runs 12's, so what for the dyno numbers, it runs 12's, case closed :D

Cheers,
Ross