CASE Learn on a RR?

[N0DIH]

I have a P1336 on my RR and need to learn it, can I with a Tech2? VIN won't program either, so EFILive Scan always asks for a VIN when I launch it

I can't do it with the EFILive DVT tool.

Thanks!

[Doc]

Uhm, not to seem dim but, what is the DVT? I routinely run the Crank Position Relearm and put the VIN in the RR using the scan tool.

[mr.prick]

Uhm, not to seem dim but, what is the DVT? I routinely run the Crank Position Relearm and put the VIN in the RR using the scan tool.

Dynamic Vehicle Testing
(F12)

[Doc]

Scan tool function?

Sorry I am still relying on 7.5 to do the day to day stuff to keep my customers happy. I just looked at my R&D setup with V8 and I understand now.

[mr.prick]

Scan tool function?

yes

[GMPX]

I am 99% sure that CASE relearn will not work in the RoadRunner because the RoadRunner does not contain a 'real' flash memory device which is what the PCM uses to store the CASE data.

Cheers,
Ross

[mr.prick]

I am 99% sure that CASE relearn will not work in the RoadRunner because the RoadRunner does not contain a 'real' flash memory device which is what the PCM uses to store the CASE data.

Cheers,
Ross

my RR has the option to switch to "flash memory".
is this not the same as a stock PCM?

[hquick]

Hmmm...I'm sure I've performed CASE relearn with my RR.

[N0DIH]

Lets just say my RR isn't on a LS1 PCM...:secret:

I just can't seem to get it to work with it....

[S10Wildside]

I am 99% sure that CASE relearn will not work in the RoadRunner because the RoadRunner does not contain a 'real' flash memory device which is what the PCM uses to store the CASE data.

Cheers,
Ross

Would this explain why I continue to get a P1336 (CKP System Variation Not Learned) while using the RoadRunner? The behavior is...

- perform CASE learn
- SES light goes out
- clear powertrain codes
- drive vehicle
- stop/start vehicle several times
- eventually P1336 sets again
- perform CASE learn...etc

I first noticed this issue after putting in a custom OS. I'll flash a non RoadRunner PCM, put it in the vehicle, perform a CASE learn, and then see what happens from there.

It's also worth mentioning that this is an early small block engine with LS1 coil per cylinder. During this P1336 issue (which did not show up a the dyno), the vehicle still made clean dyno pulls yesterday.

Any thoughts? Experiences?

[N0DIH]

So what issues show up that if CASE Learn isn't done that could hurt tuning, engine, etc?

Is there anyway that that memory area can be read from the old PCM and manually written into the RR? If the RR is a true ROM Emulator, it should have all the addresses available, I am betting that EFILive or TunerCatRT is writing to not all the addresses.

[hquick]

Pretty sure you just won't be able to detect misfires if case relearn isn't done. I know alot of people never bother.

[N0DIH]

AJ mentioned that he thinks the fuel trim learn is disabled when CASE Learn is not learned. My engine never shows the learn PID as yes, it is always No.

If that is all, I don't really care....

[tazinhawaii]

I spent many months troubleshooting not being able to CASE learn. First, I run continuously with the Roadrunner (stock PCM has been collecting dust on the shelf), and the CASE relearn works perfectly with mine. The only oddball thing is that when I disconnect the battery for more than a few minutes, I have to re-perform the relearn. As for running without the relearn done. When I haven't done the learn, my car runs like crap. Bucking, sputtering, etc. As soon as the relearn is done, no problems. So there is something to doing the learn besides misfire detection.

Derrick

[sreve]

i know this is an old thread but there is no guilt that i hijacked it.
glad i found this thread, taz saved the day. i have been beating my brains out
on a poor running car (sometimes) with the same symtoms.
the car:
'02 Z heads\cam put the roadrunner in it in sept. for the cruise to memphis for the
LSx shootout. tweaked it there and back with some positive changes.
ses light came on P1336 tried to do a relearn with an OTc gynensis and i could not.
the car ran great so after getting tired of the light i set it to report no error and forgot about it. slowly it seemed to run like crap. starting with a cold surge and an intermitent
lock up tcc.
it got to the point of what taz described overnight. it was missing though the misfire
monitor did not show it. car ran like crap unless you hit PE then it ran like a raped ape.
i set P1336 to an A code and it was ok code wise but the car ran poorly.
i put the 411 back in and it was problem solved.
i have had a check sum error for 2 years or so no matter what i am using it in. it never seemed to care. this has been the longest i have had it in one car.
i am thinking a complete format is in order. anyone know how?

[Highlander]

I guess you guys are seeing an issue with the PCM itself. I never had an issue with the roadrunner like this. Although my latest issue was that the car didn't want to fire up. So might be worth noting this.

[GMPX]

The CASE learn routines in the PCM require that it writes the learn values to the flash memory so they aren't lost if battery power is removed. Of course there is no flash memory in the Road Runner so it can't be learned.

Cheers,
Ross

[Highlander]

I don't see why it doesn't work. All it has to do is write to the emulated portion... I haven't tried it, but... I think it stores LTrim data IIRC...

[N0DIH]

Ross, if one were to take off the flash, or to read the RR, can you find those memory locations and read them, so the CASE learn can be transferred from PCM to PCM so for people like me who use the same RR in multiple PCM's/vehicles, that I can keep my CASE learn handy?

Thanks!



The CASE learn routines in the PCM require that it writes the learn values to the flash memory so they aren't lost if battery power is removed. Of course there is no flash memory in the Road Runner so it can't be learned.

Cheers,
Ross

[GMPX]

I don't see why it doesn't work. All it has to do is write to the emulated portion... I haven't tried it, but... I think it stores LTrim data IIRC...
Because the RoadRunner has no flash memory! The PCM code is designed to write the values to flash memory, not RAM, there is a big difference.


Ross, if one were to take off the flash, or to read the RR, can you find those memory locations and read them, so the CASE learn can be transferred from PCM to PCM so for people like me who use the same RR in multiple PCM's/vehicles, that I can keep my CASE learn handy?

Thanks!
Again, it's not stored in the RR, ever.
On a normal LS1 PCM EFILive gives you the option to retain the CASE data on a full flash to save the relearn procedure needing to be done.
In your situation, when you are finished tuning with the Road Runner and you refit the original PCM there should be no problem with the CASE data as the original PCM will still have it stored in flash.

Cheers,
Ross

[Highlander]

Oh... then there was something awfully good on my RR, because I had the option to switch between flash and emulated...

HMM!!!!

[N0DIH]

Get a 2x4 (I guess a 50.2mm x 100.4mm down under?) guess a and knock me upside the head if you have to, maybe I am a bit dense on this.

They way I understand it, the RR is a flash rom emulator. The PCM doesn't know that there isn't a flash part on there because the RR acts like a flash.

My thoughts were originally that the VIN, LTFT and CASE learn were stored likely in a Serial EEPROM somewhere else on the PCM (or inside the processor), not in the RR, but when I put my RR in the car, ALL data was gone, CASE Learn, VIN (was blank, not just wrong, like I expected, it was actually blanked out), CASE was gone, and who knows on LTFT's (can't really "see" to know...)

Granted, I do not expect the Flash to be written to while the PCM is in operation, just when the car is shutdown (PCM Ignition turned off).

Which brings me back to why I want to know if I can read the entire flash memory out of the PCM with a RR and see those values.


Because the RoadRunner has no flash memory! The PCM code is designed to write the values to flash memory, not RAM, there is a big difference.


Again, it's not stored in the RR, ever.
On a normal LS1 PCM EFILive gives you the option to retain the CASE data on a full flash to save the relearn procedure needing to be done.
In your situation, when you are finished tuning with the Road Runner and you refit the original PCM there should be no problem with the CASE data as the original PCM will still have it stored in flash.

Cheers,
Ross

[hquick]

I don't seem to be able to do a case relearn with my RR.
I thought I'd done it in the past....but maybe that was with Mick's RR which had the flash chip in it.
So...it would have been nice to know this 'before' buying the RR guts kit and installing it.

[N0DIH]

I was able to do a CASE learn on mine with a Tech2, but not with EFILive. I'll have to mess with it again sometime....

[JezzaB]

Get a 2x4 (I guess a 50.2mm x 100.4mm down under?)

We call it a 4 x 2 ("Four Bee Two") :p

Jez

[hquick]

That's just the builder in you coming out Jez....I'd call it a 'chunk a wood' Lol!

[Blacky]

There are two types of RR units. Early units that retained the flash memory chip and could be switched between running via the flash memory and running off the battery backed RAM chip(s). And then the later units which had the flash chip removed.


When running via the flash chip, all the normal PCM features are available but none of the RR real-time updates will work.
When running via the RR's RAM chip, none of the PCM's flash memory write routines will functions correctly but all of the RR real-time features will operate correctly.

The PCM cannot tell the difference between the RAM chip and the flash chip, but ONLY when the PCM is reading the data from the RAM chip. When the PCM attempts to write to the flash chip (which is not present) it uses a very different strategy (as Ross pointed out earlier) than when writing to the RAM chip. It will fail miserably and any and all data that is normally saved between battery power cycles is lost. If the PCM decides to refresh its internal RAM from flash memory at the next ignition on, then any and all data learned by the PCM will be lost.

Getting back to CASE learn... When the PCM learns the CASE, it immediately saves the learned data in its internal CPU RAM (not the RR's RAM) waiting for the ignition off cycle. At ignition off, it attempts to "back-up" the CASE data to the (non existing) flash memory and fails, the failure may or may not clear the CPU RAM copy of the CASE learn data - I don't know. But before the ignition-off occurs the CASE learn data should be valid in the PCM's RAM.

So you *should* be able to perform a CASE learn even with a RR (with no flash chip) fitted to the vehicle. Whether or not the learned data is retained across ignition cycles is unknown. It is definitely not retained across battery power cycles.

Hint: The RR device is designed to be a temporary tuning aid, it is not designed to operate a vehicle indefinitely. Although during testing, I ran an LS1 for 6 months continuously on a RR unit.

Regards
Paul

[Blacky]

If your existing PCM had valid CASE learn data, when you read the *.tun file from your PCM, the CASE learn data is stored in the *.tun file.

(You can always put your existing PCM back in the vehicle and do the CASE learn, set the VIN, BCC, oil life etc., then read out the PCM to get a "valid" copy of the CASE data.)

If you full-flash that *.tun file into your RR then the CASE data (along with all the other non-volatile data) will be copied into the RR. A RR full-flash is very different to a normal PCM full flash, in that it writes the CASE data, the VIN, the serial number, the BCC, the oil life, everything. A normal full-flash will leave all that data undisturbed in the target PCM.

So to program all the non-volatile data such as CASE data, the VIN, the serial number, the BCC, the oil life etc, you should:


Read the *.tun file from the RR to save your RR's current calibrations.
Do a full flash of the RR with the valid *.tun file from the original PCM from the host vehicle.\, which will program the CASE data, VIN, BCC etc into RR's RAM chip so that the PCM can read it and use it whenever it needs to - including at ignition cycles and battery cycles.
Do a cal-only flash using the file saved in step 1 which will restore the RR's calibrations, leaving the CASE data, VIN, BCC etc saved in the RR's RAM memory in step 2, untouched.

Regards
Paul

[Highlander]

As I said.. I didn't have an issue with my RR with case learn... now I know why... That is very important then.

But my question is.. Why can't the PCM write to those sections itself physically speaking?

[Blacky]

But my question is.. Why can't the PCM write to those sections itself physically speaking?

Assume the PCM wanted to set the memory location called value to the value $55.
Example 1 using RAM:


value = 0x55;
//i.e. the CPU simply sets value to $55.Example 2 using FLASH memory (this is what a PCM does at ignition-off):

// Save contents of the flash block that contains the memory that
// we want to update, to some spare RAM, block sizes are usually multiple Kbs.

// address is the address of the first byte of the block of flash memory.

// Erase block of Flash memory, using a sequence like this:
(address|0xAAA) = 0xAA;
(address|0x554) = 0x55;
(address|0xAAA) = 0x80;
(address|0xAAA) = 0xAA;
(address|0x554) = 0x55;

// Write 0x55 to appropriate location in the RAM copy of the flash block,
// using same strategy in Example 1.

// Write each byte of the RAM copy of the flash block back to the flash
// memory using a sequence like this:
for (i=0 ; i<blockSize ; i++ ) {
(address|0xAAA) = 0xAA;
(address|0x554) = 0x55;
(address|0xAAA) = 0xA0;
(address++) = *nextByte++;
} The 0xAAA and 0x55 etc, constants are specifically chosen by the FLASH chip manufacturer (and may be different for different flash chips) because those values are least likely to occur in a malfunctioning/runaway CPU, which could otherwise lead to accidental erasure or corruption of the flash memory.

As you can see, writing to Flash memory is a complicated and time consuming task. Which is precisely the reason the PCM only does it after the ignition is turned off and the PCM has acquiesced.

Put a RAM chip in the place of the Flash chip and the RAM chip won't process the address commands like the flash chip does. The RAM chip write control line from the CPU is most likely disabled to prevent any writes taking place from the PCM's CPU. RR's CPU has full access to the RAM chip. Caveat: I don't know for sure, I'm just assuming since the actual hardware implementation is done by Moates.

Regards
Paul

[Stealth97]

Hint: The RR device is designed to be a temporary tuning aid, it is not designed to operate a vehicle indefinitely. Although during testing, I ran an LS1 for 6 months continuously on a RR unit.

Regards
Paul

This is just it. The RR is not meant to replace the ECM indefinitely. While it may work and can function, for optimal stock features, use a stock PCM. Just use the RR for real time tuning.

Thanks Blacky!

Eric

[N0DIH]

Agreed, the parts are NOT automotive grade, so long term use isn't ideal at all....

[GMPX]

Having said that, there are some guys that have been RR's 24/7 since they came out (LS1 and Duramax), so it's possible, but probably not it's original intention.
I am sure not long after they were released Moates upgraded the parts used to 105°C where possible, this was mainly due to the early units having problems on the Holdens when they were given many dyno runs, why?, because the PCM is mounted 2" from the headers!! (who decided on that at GM?)

Cheers,
Ross

[N0DIH]

My company used to design PCM's (for Ford, Dodge, Cummins, Honda/Honda Racing, once in a while GM, GM Quadrasteer, till we sold them off to some German tire company) and it isn't trivial designing for underhood temps. On the embedded cell phone business that is still in use in the US, we did a lot of work on it and that is why our early versions were painted black, just to give us the edge on temps. Might be why the black box PCM's are black.... We went to unpainted as we did more testing to prove it wasn't needed.

Doing the testing in the labs is cool, the abuse you have to survive to be automotive grade.... Cool, but very abusive to the product....

[5.7ute]

Having said that, there are some guys that have been RR's 24/7 since they came out (LS1 and Duramax), so it's possible, but probably not it's original intention.
I am sure not long after they were released Moates upgraded the parts used to 105°C where possible, this was mainly due to the early units having problems on the Holdens when they were given many dyno runs, why?, because the PCM is mounted 2" from the headers!! (who decided on that at GM?)

Cheers,
Ross

My RR has been in my Holden full time unless I was tuning a mates car. This has included many dyno runs and at least 30 passes at the strip without any issues. Under bonnet temps get extremely high here with the ambient getting over 40deg C.

[N0DIH]

We test and abuse to -40 to +125C....OPERATIONAL testing...

We do unpowered thermal shocks, -40 to +125, for 1000 cycles.... Yeah, we are hell on them..... Takes around 35 days to fully test....

[hquick]

So...should it be possible to perform a case relearn even if there is no P1336 code?
I'm sure I was able to do so with the V7.4 but now with the new format of V7.5 it doesn't seem to allow me to do so.

[Stealth97]

Agreed, the parts are NOT automotive grade, so long term use isn't ideal at all....

Never thought of this.

Why oh why did I take my trusty Delco PCM out of my vehicle. Shame on me. It needs to sit in the back seat with the spare belts/alternator/laptop etc. that normally sits back there, and tools.

For me, it'll be my RR sitting on my shelf collecting dust...that is, until I get more Toys.

Eric

[DrX]

So, I have installed a new motor, trans, etc. The Roadrunner is still in the vehicle and I setup my initial tune on it. I do not get a P1336, but I am guessing that the Roadrunner wouldn't know the difference. Based on the preceding, it looks like I need to reinstall the OE PCM, full flash the .tun file from the RR to it and perform the CASE relearn, then copy and full flash the file from the OE PCM back to the RR to continue with tuning. Is this correct? Also, is it correct that the RR will not see misfires as I have not recorded any even when they were expected? Or will this be corrected once the relearn has been flashed back onto the RR?

[mr.prick]

IMO this thread is a farce, try changing the missfire tables if you get DTC's with a cam.
I've had mine installed for almost 2 years and I bought it used, no problems.
I just opened one of my RR's and the chip board was quality,
it's not like a cheap amplifier with crappy solder joints.