0411 swap now to 12586243 for flex fuel

[chevy052500hd]

I originally converted my 2000 s10 to 0411 pcm, I noticed of off holdencrazy a s10 tune 2003 had e85 tables. It looks like the 12586243 pcm has the same wiring as the 0411 pcm. Just the obvious differences 1mb flash etc. I am going to swap this on into my truck and also pick up a flex fuel sensor see if I can turn my truck in a automatic flex fuel truck. This may also work on vortec v8's too. I will keep you guys posted. By the way does anyone know where I can pick a sensor up cheap, other than the deal. I am going to call salvage yards tomorrow to see if I can locate em. Oh and how does the fuel sensor hook up, on the return line? I noticed that it looks like it has a 5/16" and 3/8" hook up

[GMPX]

There was actually a 2002 OS (12216125) for flex fuel that will run on the 0411 PCM. :) Here's the problem, the sensor from GM is around $400 :shock:
It just goes in the supply fuel line, if you search the internet for 'GM Flex Fuel Sensor' there is lots of sites, mainly people asking where to buy one for less than $400, because they seem to fail a bit, so maybe a used one isn't a good idea.

Cheers,
Ross

P.S - I considered the conversion myself, but the sensor cost scared me off.

[chevy052500hd]

I looked at that cal, but wasn't sure if it would work with the 96 - 00 vortec style engines. It was set up for multiple coil packs not a distribitor or it doesn't matter? I know the whole 400 bucks is annoying.

thanks,

kurt

[GMPX]

0411 PCM still needs the 24x sensor.

[chevy052500hd]

did the old vortec boxes use a 24x sensor too? When I did my swap to the 0411 I didn't change anything as far as sensors. I also looked at the wiring diagrams, on a v6 cal the c2 26pin is ic timing control on the v8 cal it is just for ic 1 control. I thought of the 12586243 box, because it has exactly the same wiring and the system cal should work with my engine. I don't believe they changed the sensor on newer 4.3l engines. Only thing I can find in SI is the v6 puts out 3 digital pulses and a v puts out 4 digital pulses. The 12586243 box looks like it is just for the 4.3L engines and doesn't have any etc cals either, which I don't need them in my truck still have a cable.

thanks
Kurt

[chevy052500hd]

I just received my 12586243 pcm. I swapped my red caps for green caps, install the pcm, loaded a stock cal for a s-10 2004 4x4 and did the vats relearn and it works!!!! Gauges and all! So it can be done, for some reason I couldn't get the os you were talking about to work with my s10. Even after the vats relearn it wouldn't start with changing the appropriate cals for the v6. With this pcm it works, so now I have all my e85 tables I need, now just awaiting a pcm license to alter the stock tune. I am suprised everything works, since my truck is a 2000 that came with the vortec box. Real close to making it a flex fuel truck.

[Aloicious]

I just received my 12586243 pcm. I swapped my red caps for green caps, install the pcm, loaded a stock cal for a s-10 2004 4x4 and did the vats relearn and it works!!!! Gauges and all! So it can be done, for some reason I couldn't get the os you were talking about to work with my s10. Even after the vats relearn it wouldn't start with changing the appropriate cals for the v6. With this pcm it works, so now I have all my e85 tables I need, now just awaiting a pcm license to alter the stock tune. I am suprised everything works, since my truck is a 2000 that came with the vortec box. Real close to making it a flex fuel truck.

whoa, this is interesting, I wonder what other benefits the 12586243 pcm holds? I may have to look into that. hmmmm. interesting. you said the wiring was the same as the 411? do you have a wiring diagram or schematic or something for it? what motor are you running in your '00 S10?

BTW, the L31 vortec's use a 4x crank signal, not a 24x (although there may be a way to upgrade in the near future). so a non-24x signal still works, just need the correct calculations in the 411 tables to make it work, because the 411 does use a 24x signal system (this is what GM did with the '02 x-van using an L-31 vortec with a 411 pcm).

[Aloicious]

I found this info as well:

For 2003, the Gen III PCM for trucks was upgraded with an even faster version of the Motorola 68000 chip. The same upgrade was rolled out on the car side in 2004 Vette and GTO. The flash memory was now doubled from 512 kilobytes to 1024 kilobytes, to help facilitate further expansion of control coding.
Externally, the new PCM was identifiable by its 'green' connector (replacing the 'blue' connector found on '99-'02 PCMs). This PCM would remain basically unchanged through its remaining usage up to 2007. However, several service codes existed due to internal manufacturing or sourcing changes, such as Intel-brand flash memory or AMD-brand flash memory.
This brand-swapping was fairly transparent to the user, but caused tuning and diagnostic tools to be re-designed to ensure compatibility. The service codes for '03-'07 include 12576106, 12586243, 12586242, 12583560, 12583561, and 12589463. These PCMs are interchangeable, with a complete re-flash of the appropriate operating system. Thanks to its fast processor and large memory, this PCM is considered the optimal choice for LS1 transplants
----------------------------

Consider even using a slow scanner that is doing a request/reply for each PID being monitored how much more clock and bus is being taken up.
Or like a Corvette that has lots of other electronic modules that are also taking up OBD 2 time, heck even the seat or side mirrors on a vette talk and anytime more clock can be gotten the better then PCM is to make more decisions as to the adaptive strategy.
Add the expanded memory space from 512K to 1 meg helps as GM made use of that space for good reason to tables.

I have been using a 2003 PCM in my 1999 C5 and could even see some improvement over the 99-02 PCM and GM did not jump to a 40 Mhz CPU for the E40 PCM for no reason.

No different then people buying a new P/C because the CPU was slow on what they had and did a lot of number crunching suh I as do in spreadsheets for tuning.

In any case I am testing this week using a 04 PCM with 03 and 04 flashes in it to see what differences there is by removing the stock flash chip and installing a IC socket so flash chips can be plugged in to test different flash configurations.
Cannot hurt also having a higher clock speed to better the data and address lines.

Just think that 99-02 CPU is only 16.7 Mhz clock/CPU if and a 40 Mhz CPU was used with 2 meg flash in a 08 PCM

taken from:http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0704gm_factory_pcms/page_2.html

[chevy052500hd]

whoa, this is interesting, I wonder what other benefits the 12586243 pcm holds? I may have to look into that. hmmmm. interesting. you said the wiring was the same as the 411? do you have a wiring diagram or schematic or something for it? what motor are you running in your '00 S10?

I am running the stock 4.3L v6 engine in it. Originally had the vortec box, then swapped to a 0411 , then now swapped to the 6243. I have diagrams for just about all gm up to 2004 an some 20005, buddy of mine score a DVD copy of SI for free. I am thinking this may be a option for vortec v8's, because guys that did 0411 swaps had to use a cal from a s10 to get their 4x4 to work properly. I sent a copy of the stock that I am using now, to holdencrazy's email. It was outta a 4x4 s10 2004 with a 6243. All modules work with the swap, only thing I have noticed is the tach is off, which would prolly be corrected by getting a new cluster, but am not to concerned about that right now.



BTW, the L31 vortec's use a 4x crank signal, not a 24x (although there may be a way to upgrade in the near future). so a non-24x signal still works, just need the correct calculations in the 411 tables to make it work, because the 411 does use a 24x signal system (this is what GM did with the '02 x-van using an L-31 vortec with a 411 pcm).

If that is the case then the v6 uses a 3x crank signal. I remeber reading that in SI. I haven't changed anything and it works with this computer. Hmmm. What tables control this? Maybe this is why my tach is off.

Later
Kurt

[Aloicious]

I am running the stock 4.3L v6 engine in it. Originally had the vortec box, then swapped to a 0411 , then now swapped to the 6243. I have diagrams for just about all gm up to 2004 an some 20005, buddy of mine score a DVD copy of SI for free. I am thinking this may be a option for vortec v8's, because guys that did 0411 swaps had to use a cal from a s10 to get their 4x4 to work properly. I sent a copy of the stock that I am using now, to holdencrazy's email. It was outta a 4x4 s10 2004 with a 6243. All modules work with the swap, only thing I have noticed is the tach is off, which would prolly be corrected by getting a new cluster, but am not to concerned about that right now.




If that is the case then the v6 uses a 3x crank signal. I remeber reading that in SI. I haven't changed anything and it works with this computer. Hmmm. What tables control this? Maybe this is why my tach is off.

Later
Kurt

there are alot of tables that refer to the 24x signal so I'm not sure which one would relate to the tach being off, I'll check around and see if I can find anything tonight at work, I'm running the 411 in my '96 right now with a tune based off of the '02 express van on holden crazy (mines not 4wd, so I didnt need to switch to the s10 calibration)

I may have to try the swap as well, I've got an extra license I'm probably not going to use so why not 'eh?

where did you end up getting the green connector sleeves at?

let us know if you find any other issues or benefits from the swap.

[ringram]

Isnt the 24 pickup used in 6 and 8's anyway? (ie) 3x8=24 and 4*6=24 also works for 4 cyl. I thought they changed to 58x for more resolution.
Im probably talking miles off thread, but there you go :)

[Lextech]

Ringram,
On the distributored Vortec engines, The V-6 has a 3 toothed reluctor and the V-8s have a 4 toothed reluctor.

Jeff

[Aloicious]

Ringram,
On the distributored Vortec engines, The V-6 has a 3 toothed reluctor and the V-8s have a 4 toothed reluctor.

Jeff

yup, this is pre-24x wheel days. heh...

although for anyone not aware, Mike from EFIconnection is working on getting a 24x reluctor wheel that will work on the older gen 1 and 2 motors which would allow for the 24x signal as well as coil near plug, and he has 1 or 2 working vehicles using it that are being tested at the moment...so that option may be a viable solution in the near future as well.

although I would think there is some calibration that could be changed in the 6243 to make the tach read correctly, from what I have seen, basically all the tables (with the exception of the ethanol table) between the '02 express van OS and the 6243 OS are the same, so you should be able to just put in the correct calculations in there somewhere to get the correct tach reading.

[chevy052500hd]

The green connectors I got through a buddy of mine, but he ending up needing them back so, what I did is took the red connectors and between the to end numbs there is one like almost in the center, I just filed it down with a grinder, so now it will work. It's my own truck so I am not too much concerned whether our not it has the proper colors. I am thinking that it may be off in the tach inside the cluster. I did some look up with my tech 2. It says the PCM rpm is 700 rpm at idle, I have it set that high, but when I go over to the cluster input views it thinks it is getting 500rpm's, and it varies even more as the rpm's come up. I will here shortly do a cluster swap outta a 2002 and see if this corrects it. I am thinking that the 2000 cluster has a different mulitplier built into it. The PCM see's the proper rpm, the cluster isn't. The lowest value efi will let you put in, in the tach section is one.

I am still awaiting a cheaper source for the fuel sensor, that way I can see if the e85 stuff works.

[Aloicious]

The green connectors I got through a buddy of mine, but he ending up needing them back so, what I did is took the red connectors and between the to end numbs there is one like almost in the center, I just filed it down with a grinder, so now it will work. It's my own truck so I am not too much concerned whether our not it has the proper colors. I am thinking that it may be off in the tach inside the cluster. I did some look up with my tech 2. It says the PCM rpm is 700 rpm at idle, I have it set that high, but when I go over to the cluster input views it thinks it is getting 500rpm's, and it varies even more as the rpm's come up. I will here shortly do a cluster swap outta a 2002 and see if this corrects it. I am thinking that the 2000 cluster has a different mulitplier built into it. The PCM see's the proper rpm, the cluster isn't. The lowest value efi will let you put in, in the tach section is one.

I am still awaiting a cheaper source for the fuel sensor, that way I can see if the e85 stuff works.

it could be the cluster, let us know how that works for you. I was researching the differences between the '02 Xvan based tune I'm running on the 411 with a '04 silverado 6.0 tune running the 6243, and there were no differences I could see in the way the pcm processes the tach calibrations (the calibration values for the L31 and Lq9 motors were different, but the tables were setup identical). they're both PCMs that can run the LS motors, so the tach signal going out should be the same as long as the values are the same in the tables, I would doubt the cluster would cause the problem, but it could be.

have you swapped the fuel system for corrosion resistant stuff to run the E85? I'd like to see how it this works for you.

[chevy052500hd]

I am switching to a marine intake, it has stainless steel lines, I also believe the injuectors are too, as far as the lines and the tank, I am not too concerned with them, I seen a video on youtube, the supposedly ran e85 throught a 2000 tahoe for 100,000 miles and tore it down, there was no damage to the fuel system, infact it showed to be in better condition. For everything I have read, it goes back and forth, so I am just going to wing it and see. I ran e85 before in this truck with no problems, just caled the computer for it to run on only e85, now if I can make it flex fuel, that would be even better. With e85 the stock spyder setup wasn't enough to keep up in the top end for fuel, was a little lean in PE but not horribly. I do believe the marine injectors are 24lbs, so I do believe it will all work itself out. Now the whole reason for me doing this, I am planning on putting my turbo system back on and boosting it again, with e85 it will be a little cheaper to play. Once I put my turbo back on I can get some bigger injectors, may have to use some 96lbs low impedence ones and use a driver box to drive them. This is all down the road, right now just want flex fuel LOL. :rockon:

I am glad to see there are options for the v8's too, cause before the only cal's I found used the 24x sensor, couldn't start my truck on those. That and they were set up for etc, which I don't have.

[GMPX]

Before everyone starts swapping to the 1Mb PCM, the reason GM went to larger flash is they simply ran out of room on the 512K chip. The additional CPU speed was needed to process all the extra 'crap' that was added in for stricter diagnostics etc. You are not going to gain anything in performance by using the newer PCM, unless you need to make your 2001 vehicle meet 2006 emissions levels.
Also, there is many different types of 1Mb PCM's, some are model specific so you can't just grab any 1Mb PCM and expect it to work in your vehicle.

Cheers,
Ross

[GMPX]

Isnt the 24 pickup used in 6 and 8's anyway? (ie) 3x8=24 and 4*6=24 also works for 4 cyl. I thought they changed to 58x for more resolution.
Im probably talking miles off thread, but there you go :)
I think it was a trade off, I am sure the 24x signal can calculate the engine position much faster than the 58x, however, it's easy to use a 58x sensor on all engine types, once they use 58x wheels over a variety of engines that means the same controller can be used on a number of engines, just look how many the E38 / E67 support.

Cheers,
Ross

[chevy052500hd]

Before everyone starts swapping to the 1Mb PCM, the reason GM went to larger flash is they simply ran out of room on the 512K chip. The additional CPU speed was needed to process all the extra 'crap' that was added in for stricter diagnostics etc. You are not going to gain anything in performance by using the newer PCM, unless you need to make your 2001 vehicle meet 2006 emissions levels.
Also, there is many different types of 1Mb PCM's, some are model specific so you can't just grab any 1Mb PCM and expect it to work in your vehicle.

Cheers,
Ross


Did some highway testing, for me this PCM increased my gas mileage by about 1 -2mpg. This was highway only, city mileage appeared to stay the same. I went from 16mpg on the vortec box, to 18mpg on the 0411, and now this PCM is 20mpg. Lean cruise was not enabled, I have just enabled it now, and will see what kinda results I get now. Not saying everyone's car will react the same, but it seems as of right now I picked up a couple. This was done tonight had a 3 hour drive, so played around with mpg calculating.

[Aloicious]

Did some highway testing, for me this PCM increased my gas mileage by about 1 -2mpg. This was highway only, city mileage appeared to stay the same. I went from 16mpg on the vortec box, to 18mpg on the 0411, and now this PCM is 20mpg. Lean cruise was not enabled, I have just enabled it now, and will see what kinda results I get now. Not saying everyone's car will react the same, but it seems as of right now I picked up a couple. This was done tonight had a 3 hour drive, so played around with mpg calculating.

Nice, are you using mostly the same calibrations that you had in the 411? did you just disable the E85 tables since you don't have the sensor yet? (or did you get it already?)

[chevy052500hd]

yup, calibrations were identical to 0411, the e85 tables I had entered , and also turned on the enablers, but for some reason the PCM is ignoring them. I don't have the sensor as of yet, but figured the PCM would recognize it. So with that I am playing around with a cal from a tahoe that had e85 thinking that there is some buried enablers that aren't visable, as of yet haven't loaded it. I also noticed with this PCM it don't like lean cruise, from some reason after driving around for 20 minutes it kicks outta it, I disabled cat protection thinking that this was the problem, and maxed out all the values for cat protection and it still does it. I don't have a cat on right now, so wasn't concerned. Gotta play with the setting still.

[Aloicious]

yup, calibrations were identical to 0411, the e85 tables I had entered , and also turned on the enablers, but for some reason the PCM is ignoring them. I don't have the sensor as of yet, but figured the PCM would recognize it. So with that I am playing around with a cal from a tahoe that had e85 thinking that there is some buried enablers that aren't visable, as of yet haven't loaded it. I also noticed with this PCM it don't like lean cruise, from some reason after driving around for 20 minutes it kicks outta it, I disabled cat protection thinking that this was the problem, and maxed out all the values for cat protection and it still does it. I don't have a cat on right now, so wasn't concerned. Gotta play with the setting still.

sounds like you're making good progress, keep us updated on it.

[chevy052500hd]

Well got lean cruise to stay active, commanded a af of 15.5 to 16 netted me 2 more mpg on the highway. So now I am up to 22mpg, not to bad for 3.73 gears LOL. E85 stuff I think I have hit a dead end, posted the tune I am using in the Cax section maybe someone can dig out the enabler that I need. For now I will have to wait.

Later
Kurt

[stigmundfreud]

does anyone know if the 04 5.7ltr Monaro/GTO supports flex fuel? E85 isnt widely supported here in the UK yet, its all E10, but it is going to come in at some point...

[chevy052500hd]

It is quite possibly, you have it easier, because there are already some operating systems that have e85 from the factory, that should work with that motor, as long as it uses the 24x crank sensor you should be good to go, but you would need the flex fuel sensor and more than likely need bigger injectors, fuel pump probably will be big enough to support the extra fuel.

[stigmundfreud]

thanks, will wait to see what happens with the whole bio-fuel lark. We might end up re-opening the old coal pits to get coal derived petrol, time will tell!

[chevy052500hd]

Just to let anyone know that was following this thread, efilive has updated the calibrations to allow flex fuel options now on this OS system and others that contain e85 tables, just update to the lastest software. Thanks again efilive.

[nevinsb]

Thanks for the update on the e85!

Any idea which tables you have to update for the 24X crank sensor? This may be something I will have to tackle this summer.

[chevy052500hd]

didn't need to the vortec 4.3l use a 3x sensor. By using a cal outta 2004 s10 pcm it had the flex fuel tables in it and the proper crank sensor, but the area to turn on the flex fuel option wasn't available, now it is, thus ended my problem. The are already a few 24x flex fuel cals on holdencrazy. Hope that helps.

Kurt

[nevinsb]

That makes sense. I thought you found a factory tune that had the e85 tables enabled (Not just with values filled in). I was kind of curious how they got enough fuel since the stock injectors are only 19LB.

I have a 12576106 PCM in my truck, and I was going to go back to the 1220411 PCM because the pins for the coils aren't grounding (For individual coil packs). It was suggested by a couple of other people that I would need to update to the 24X crank ring in order for this to work.

You remember which tune you were going off of? I didn't see a 2004 S10 listed.

[chevy052500hd]

No cal from gm had the correct values put in. The original stock cal had everything zeroed out basicly, I was under the impression at the time if all I did was change the values to what they needed to be it would work, I was wrong LOL. There a couple of options not available that I needed, which now are. As far as with the 19lb injectors I have swaped the injectors out when I switched to the marine intake. It will work with the stock spider setup but my truck ran a hair lean in pe up high.

For the flex fuel section under fuel in the cal you need to input these values,

B3101 Enable
B3103 38.01%
B3104 155
B3105 45

This may work with your pcm, I tried doing a search for the part number you gave, couldn't locate it. As long as it has a 1MB flash it should work. I will look at my laptop tomorrow, for the sensor pinout if you need that also? A buddy is using my laptop to tune a truck, am not near it at the moment.

Now for a marine intake for your ride, you can get one off ebay brand new. There is a guy that sells them complete for around 300 bucks. If you need the info on converting your s10 I can give ya that too.

[nevinsb]

I am using a converted 2114 carb manifold with 42LB injectors.

Right now, I have used the following PCMs for truck:
Original:
Service:12581565 (Superseded 89017733)
Hardware: 12575502
OS: 12579405
Connector: Blue/Green

Custom Tune PCM:
Service: 12576106
Hardware: 12570558
OS: 12579405
Connector: Blue/Green

I have the GM service manuals for the S10, so I have wiring diagrams, but they don't list the pins on the PCM for the individual coil packs, but they do in the 2.2L section for the ethanol sensor. In the PCM wiring diagram, they just say "Not used." where it looked like the coils were used on other cars. It would be nice if I could find a diagram of every pin on the PCM, but I don't know of any cars that used it on the LS1.

[chevy052500hd]

If memory serves me right it will be what is listed on the 4cyl. It seemed no matter what application it was on that pin, as far as the trucks go. I will check tomorrow on the correct pin for ya. I have gm's si progam on my laptop so I can look at just about every model up to 2005. Just outta curiosity can I get a copy of your tune file? I am helping a bud tune a 4.3 with a carb 2114 intake on it, and it is proving to be a pain in my ass, more like I am squeezed for time on tuning it LOL... if you could email it to me kurt998100@yahoo.com would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks
Kurt

[CC&M]

Pin 71 on the blue connector is the fuel temperature/compostion signal. Circuit # 1579 white wire.

[chevy052500hd]

Pin 71 on the blue connector is the fuel temperature/compostion signal. Circuit # 1579 white wire.

Which platform is that for? Trucks it is on pin 56 blue connector.

[CC&M]

It is for 2002 S10 with a 2.2L

[chevy052500hd]

ah ok, for this pcm I have it is pin 56, this pcm is more closely related to ls trucks.

[CC&M]

Looked it up for a '03 tahoe w/5.3 flex and found it on blue 56, so there are some differences between the 512K and 1024K PCM's pinouts. The 03 PCM has blue 71 "not used" Still the same circuit # but different pin.

[nevinsb]

Is there a difference between C2 on the 0411 (Red) and the 12586243 (Green)? When I looked up the 2003/2004/2004 S10 in the GMSPO, it listed the "red" connector pinouts. Mine has the 12581565.

[CC&M]

I have a 02 camaro with the 0411 and 04 5.3 with 6243 for comparison, they both are virtually the same. The light truck has more features used in the connector compared to the 0411, but otherwise is a circuit for circuit match. Mine lists C2 as green though, not red.

[nevinsb]

Well, at least the wiring for mine isn't the only one that is messed up. I was figuring that there was a reason GM made the connectors different, so I wasn't getting a warm fuzzy feeling about just switching the caps on the connectors. I'll just change the whole engine wiring harness back again.

[CC&M]

I can email you a pdf for the PCM pinout if you want. send me a PM I'll get it to you.

[nevinsb]

As far as I can tell, the wiring is the same, so you should just be able to swap the connector caps:
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w4/nevinsb/DSC02533.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w4/nevinsb/DSC02532.jpg

[chevy052500hd]

Red cap is for the 512k pcm

Green cap is for 1mb pcm

As far as trucks go, wiring is identical.

All I did on mine when I swapped from the 0411 pcm to the 6243 was swap connector caps, all worked well for me. I did notice however in the cal that I had for my s10 I had to recal the gas gauge, may not be your case.