Tuning the transient parameters

[hquick]

Ok guys....couldn't wait any longer so I decided to make some adjustments to my B9000 table before heading home from work.
I upped the 90 & 100 kpa columns by 10%. After a little driving I noticed a small decrease in the lean tip-in spike so I pulled over and raised it another 10%.
Another drive and then another 5% as well as lifting the 80 & 70 rows 5%.
If there's still any lean tip in...it's negligible....but being the perfectionist (addict :hihi: ) I am....I'll keep working on it.

[5.7ute]

Thats good news. Any relationship with the BENS & the amount you needed to modify the table? (Just thinking ahead for the roadrunner.)

[hquick]

No idea Mick . Lol!
I'm sending you my tune and logs....you can take a peek.

[5.7ute]

No worries. I will have a look tomorrow after I upgrade the work PC.

[Aloicious]

Ok guys....couldn't wait any longer so I decided to make some adjustments to my B9000 table before heading home from work.
I upped the 90 & 100 kpa columns by 10%. After a little driving I noticed a small decrease in the lean tip-in spike so I pulled over and raised it another 10%.
Another drive and then another 5% as well as lifting the 80 & 70 rows 5%.
If there's still any lean tip in...it's negligible....but being the perfectionist (addict :hihi: ) I am....I'll keep working on it.

GREAT! I'm stoked, I'm going to try this out as well. I have the lean tip in as well as a slight rich decel issue I'd like to try working on with this (wall wetting table I'm thinking) as nothing else seems to fix it.

Howard, did you leave all the other calibration values the same as the initial file? (i.e. you only altered the b9000 by increasing the column values, no other tables?) I'd be interested in seeing your tune once you iron it out.

good job!

[hquick]

Send me your email address and I'll send it to you right now.
I had rich decel also..and it's gone.
I still need to do alot of testing and tuning. This was a 'rough' test....but seemed to head the right direction.

[Aloicious]

Send me your email address and I'll send it to you right now.
I had rich decel also..and it's gone.
I still need to do alot of testing and tuning. This was a 'rough' test....but seemed to head the right direction.

I'll PM you. did you adjust the wall wetting tables for the rich decel?

EDIT- I see b9000 IS a wall wetting table. DUH. I thought it was under the throttle stop section. how did you work on the rich decel problem you had?

[hquick]

Rich decel went away with the lean tip in.

[hquick]

Current log and tune

[Stoichiometric]

First off :thankyou2: For getting these going! HQuick, I made an ~30% increase to the 80+ kPa columns, and 10% everywhere else. Still some fine tuning to do, very happy with the results so far.

[hquick]

Sweet!
This morning.....with the impact table looking like this....

0.429688 0.534669 0.640138 0.669923 0.700197 0.715334 0.729982 0.729982 0.729982
0.420899 0.514161 0.606935 0.636720 0.666994 0.681642 0.696779 0.696779 0.696779
0.412599 0.492677 0.573243 0.603517 0.633302 0.648439 0.663087 0.663087 0.663087
0.403809 0.466798 0.529786 0.560060 0.590333 0.604982 0.619630 0.619630 0.619630
0.395509 0.439454 0.483399 0.511720 0.540040 0.553224 0.566407 0.566407 0.566407
0.386720 0.419923 0.440431 0.465333 0.489747 0.500001 0.510255 0.510743 0.511720
0.378419 0.398927 0.423341 0.447267 0.472169 0.484864 0.495607 0.496095 0.497071
0.368165 0.382813 0.400391 0.423341 0.471192 0.488282 0.496583 0.484376 0.482423
0.338868 0.354005 0.371583 0.397462 0.456544 0.476075 0.483888 0.471192 0.467286
0.310059 0.325196 0.343262 0.370118 0.435060 0.455567 0.466798 0.455079 0.451661
0.281251 0.296387 0.314454 0.340821 0.407227 0.430665 0.443360 0.443360 0.440919
0.252442 0.267579 0.285645 0.310548 0.361329 0.398927 0.414552 0.406251 0.395997
0.225098 0.239747 0.256836 0.278321 0.314454 0.345216 0.362794 0.360352 0.323731
0.196289 0.202637 0.219727 0.237305 0.254883 0.276856 0.301270 0.301270 0.301270
0.110840 0.140625 0.155762 0.167969 0.179688 0.190918 0.200684 0.202637 0.203125
0.078613 0.099610 0.125000 0.135254 0.145020 0.155274 0.165039 0.167481 0.169922
0.068848 0.084473 0.103028 0.111328 0.120117 0.129883 0.140137 0.145020 0.149903
0.057617 0.067871 0.083008 0.088379 0.093262 0.103516 0.113281 0.118164 0.123047
0.043945 0.048828 0.049805 0.055176 0.060059 0.070313 0.080078 0.084961 0.089844

I actually felt quite a difference.

[Aloicious]

Sweet!
This morning.....with the impact table looking like this....

0.429688 0.534669 0.640138 0.669923 0.700197 0.715334 0.729982 0.729982 0.729982
0.420899 0.514161 0.606935 0.636720 0.666994 0.681642 0.696779 0.696779 0.696779
0.412599 0.492677 0.573243 0.603517 0.633302 0.648439 0.663087 0.663087 0.663087
0.403809 0.466798 0.529786 0.560060 0.590333 0.604982 0.619630 0.619630 0.619630
0.395509 0.439454 0.483399 0.511720 0.540040 0.553224 0.566407 0.566407 0.566407
0.386720 0.419923 0.440431 0.465333 0.489747 0.500001 0.510255 0.510743 0.511720
0.378419 0.398927 0.423341 0.447267 0.472169 0.484864 0.495607 0.496095 0.497071
0.368165 0.382813 0.400391 0.423341 0.471192 0.488282 0.496583 0.484376 0.482423
0.338868 0.354005 0.371583 0.397462 0.456544 0.476075 0.483888 0.471192 0.467286
0.310059 0.325196 0.343262 0.370118 0.435060 0.455567 0.466798 0.455079 0.451661
0.281251 0.296387 0.314454 0.340821 0.407227 0.430665 0.443360 0.443360 0.440919
0.252442 0.267579 0.285645 0.310548 0.361329 0.398927 0.414552 0.406251 0.395997
0.225098 0.239747 0.256836 0.278321 0.314454 0.345216 0.362794 0.360352 0.323731
0.196289 0.202637 0.219727 0.237305 0.254883 0.276856 0.301270 0.301270 0.301270
0.110840 0.140625 0.155762 0.167969 0.179688 0.190918 0.200684 0.202637 0.203125
0.078613 0.099610 0.125000 0.135254 0.145020 0.155274 0.165039 0.167481 0.169922
0.068848 0.084473 0.103028 0.111328 0.120117 0.129883 0.140137 0.145020 0.149903
0.057617 0.067871 0.083008 0.088379 0.093262 0.103516 0.113281 0.118164 0.123047
0.043945 0.048828 0.049805 0.055176 0.060059 0.070313 0.080078 0.084961 0.089844

I actually felt quite a difference.


nice, I'm still trying to get mine in line, it's helped the lean tip in alot, but I still have pretty bad richness on "tip out" I guess you could call it.

[hquick]

Yeah....I still get a litle rich decel when cool and lean when hotter.
The lean tip in is all but gone.
Need to 'play' with the other stuff now.
Anyone understand which way to adjust the 'boiling time constant' table?

[Aloicious]

Yeah....I still get a litle rich decel when cool and lean when hotter.
The lean tip in is all but gone.
Need to 'play' with the other stuff now.
Anyone understand which way to adjust the 'boiling time constant' table?

yeah I only get rich on decel, its pretty bad at times, like down to 0.7 BEN. but usually averages around .85-0.9, depending on how dramatic the throttle difference is....but falls back into line fairly quick. I'm just really OCD about it all, you know how it is.

[hquick]

Yep....I know 'EXACTLY' how it is. Lol!
I run two logs and do two flashes a day...atleast. Lol!
Have tyou tried bumping up the 20 and 30 KPA rows?
After doing that this morning...I felt a big difference in acceleration.

[hquick]

Just for an update....and for the sake of it.
Here's a log and tune from this morning.

[Whippled 496]

Man you guys are making me jealous as hell!!! LOL. I cant wait till my OS is ready for some testing :)

[hquick]

LOl! oh....it's worth the wait! :pokey: :hihi:

[Aloicious]

Yep....I know 'EXACTLY' how it is. Lol!
I run two logs and do two flashes a day...atleast. Lol!
Have tyou tried bumping up the 20 and 30 KPA rows?
After doing that this morning...I felt a big difference in acceleration.

I'm going to try that on my way home from work today. I'm also swapping back to COS 3 (02020003), I've found I don't really like the lean cruise tuning via the LC CAX file (using the GM lean cruise tables), so I'm going to use the pseudo lean cruise w/ RPM vs MAP commanded fuel. we'll see how it goes, although I ran COS 3 for a while earlier this year and it seemed to do okay. so I don't expect problems from the OS swap.

[hquick]

You can see in that tune above I have the 'pseudo' lean cruise happening via B3647

[Aloicious]

LOl! oh....it's worth the wait! :pokey: :hihi:

totally, transient fueling tables = good, efilive = good.

I shouldve been studying tonight for my engineering and Ochem classes, but NOPE, tonight was dedicated to the tuning. (but hey, tuning includes elements of both engineering and Ochem. so that's my justificaiton :hihi: )

[hquick]

However you justify it..is upto you. Lol!
I'm strudying chemicals....Shiraz!

[Aloicious]

Yeah....I still get a litle rich decel when cool and lean when hotter.
The lean tip in is all but gone.
Need to 'play' with the other stuff now.
Anyone understand which way to adjust the 'boiling time constant' table?

What could be gained by altering the B9003 (boiling time constant)? I was thinking that raising the low KPA on that may help with the rich decel, but then again, I'm not 100% sure how it works and the description is fairly vague considering there are alot more variables to fuel vaporization other than temp and KPA.

I wonder if it is directly corrilated to the impact factor table seeing as how the impact table is "the fraction of the injected pulse that will impact the port wall" and the boiling time constant is (according to the decription) the time it takes for 63% of the wall fuel to vaporize. I would think that the more fuel expected to hit the wall (i.e. raising the impact factor table) the longer it would take for 63% of it to vaporize.

[RetroAus]

Hi guys,
I just posted message to hq,I have been OS and just read about .cax files. Have set it up files are in Cal folder....Do you need tool plugged in to view new tables?

Cheers
Kyle

[hquick]

I believe that's correct.
I'l have to 'ask' how and what to adjust. :devil_2:

[hquick]

Hi Kyle,
Nah....I do most my tuning on my PC but log and tune on the road on my laptop. PC never gets plugged in and I can look at the tables fine.

[hquick]

.cax files should be in C:\Program Files (x86 for Vista)\EFILive\V7.5\Calibrations

[Aloicious]

I believe that's correct.
I'l have to 'ask' how and what to adjust. :devil_2:

yeah, I wonder if we can just increase/decrease it by the same total percentage amount that we do the impact factor table?

[RetroAus]

.cax files should be in C:\Program Files (x86 for Vista)\EFILive\V7.5\Calibrations

Thanks Howard...Got it sorted...Was looking at 01290003 OS...Just made a new .cax file.
Cheers

Kyle

[Aloicious]

okay so the cos3 and altered transient tables are working well so far, still rich decel, and a few points of slightly lean tip in, but i can also tell a good difference in throttle response.

quick question for anyone though. i asked in the other transient fueling thread but never got an answer. i'm trying to attempt to understand the transient tables better and was wondering about the degress/c in the transient tables. is that referring to IAT or ect? i would think both have a factor on the transient fueling.

[5.7ute]

I have attached a spreadsheet for dual data log addition for the transient tables. Hopefully it can be of some help since there is not a lot of data to use after filtering.

[MICK]

okay so the cos3 and altered transient tables are working well so far, still rich decel, and a few points of slightly lean tip in, but i can also tell a good difference in throttle response.

quick question for anyone though. i asked in the other transient fueling thread but never got an answer. i'm trying to attempt to understand the transient tables better and was wondering about the degress/c in the transient tables. is that referring to IAT or ect? i would think both have a factor on the transient fueling.


Think of it as Engine Temp for now. if it were related to valve temp it would not surprise me.

Cheers

Mick

[Aloicious]

I have attached a spreadsheet for dual data log addition for the transient tables. Hopefully it can be of some help since there is not a lot of data to use after filtering.

hmm, how are you using this? like what PID's are you logging to fill the tables in? I tried logging ECT vs MAP with the BEN's as the data, but it didn't yeild too much usefull info, or maybe I'm going about it wrong. I've gotten pretty good results making educated guesses on where in increase the table, but if there's a better way, I'm all for it.

on another note, while doing some adjustments to the tune last night I did adjust the boiling time constant table to attempt to fix the rich decel, it seemed to help SLIGHTLY but not a whole lot, I may have to look elsewhere to fix it.

on some totally unrelated topics, I solved my hard starting problem using redhardsupra's cranking VE extrapolating spreadsheet (thanks RHS!!!!), and I found out that semi-open loop CAN be disabled using COS 3 without resorting to 1.01 EQ ratios in the commanded fuel tables and altering the stoich value, etc, etc, basically I zero'd out ALL the trimming tables (LTFT and STFT) as well as the switching points table, and maxed out the CL enable temp table. viola, 3 logs, NO trimming (STFT or LTFT, although the LTFT never were a problem), so its a TRUE OLMAF tune I'm running with COS3, and I can use regular EQ values in any table with the correct stoich value and not worry about trimming. (this is good because one of my O2's are bad and adding 50%!!! at times and throwing a code, I really didn't want to buy a $60 sensor that I don't wanna use anyways.) :cucumber:

[hquick]

Can you send me some info as to what tables you did what to, to acieve this?
I'd like to do the same.
As for rich decel.....you should adjust the impact factor table in the same way as for lean tip in. Bump it up in those area's where rich decel occurs.

[Aloicious]

Can you send me some info as to what tables you did what to, to acieve this?
I'd like to do the same.
As for rich decel.....you should adjust the impact factor table in the same way as for lean tip in. Bump it up in those area's where rich decel occurs.

yeah I did bump it up quite a bid with not much luck, I'm wondering if I didn't filter out the transients well enough when I was doing AutoVE and the problem actually lies in the VE table, it may be time for another VE adjustment...on another note, the lean tip in issue is practically eliminated, there is still a tiny bit now and then, but its just leaning out to say ~15.7 around 15% of the time or so, instead of ~17+ at 50% of the time. throttle response has improved like you mentioned as well.

yeah I can send you the tables to disable for a true OL in COS3, I'm at school now though so I don't have my laptop with me, I'll let you know exactally which ones when I get home tonight. I also noticed on one of your recent tunes that you have the stock cranking VE table, does it give you a hard time starting (especially when warm/hot)? I was having to give it gas every time I was trying to start it with the stock cranking VE. if you are having issues you should go to RHS's website and get his cranking VE tool, it extrapolates what the cranking VE should be (instead of ~1.8 across the board like stock) from the regular VE, and 5-10 starts so far after doing that I've never had to give it any gas to help it start.

[hquick]

Yes...it does have trouble starting on a warm re-start. I have to feather the throttle until it settles at idle.
Thanks for that....I'll look into it.

[joecar]

...

on some totally unrelated topics, I solved my hard starting problem using redhardsupra's cranking VE extrapolating spreadsheet (thanks RHS!!!!), and I found out that semi-open loop CAN be disabled using COS 3 without resorting to 1.01 EQ ratios in the commanded fuel tables and altering the stoich value, etc, etc, basically I zero'd out ALL the trimming tables (LTFT and STFT) as well as the switching points table, and maxed out the CL enable temp table. viola, 3 logs, NO trimming (STFT or LTFT, although the LTFT never were a problem), so its a TRUE OLMAF tune I'm running with COS3, and I can use regular EQ values in any table with the correct stoich value and not worry about trimming. (this is good because one of my O2's are bad and adding 50%!!! at times and throwing a code, I really didn't want to buy a $60 sensor that I don't wanna use anyways.) :cucumber:
I'm also interested in which tables...:cheers:

[5.7ute]

hmm, how are you using this? like what PID's are you logging to fill the tables in? I tried logging ECT vs MAP with the BEN's as the data, but it didn't yeild too much usefull info, or maybe I'm going about it wrong. I've gotten pretty good results making educated guesses on where in increase the table, but if there's a better way, I'm all for it.



At the moment just use AFR,s as the data to give a visual on which cells the lean tip in or tip out is occuring. The main problem is we are talking about fractions of the pulse width being added & BEN factor is not the correct adjustment.
The main reason I had made the sheet is that even on a long log with lots of throttle action there was only a tiny amount of data left for the lean tip in. With some good data we should be able to work out a custom pid that will take out the guesswork & bring it all into line fast enough for roadrunner use.:cheers:

[Aloicious]

At the moment just use AFR,s as the data to give a visual on which cells the lean tip in or tip out is occuring. The main problem is we are talking about fractions of the pulse width being added & BEN factor is not the correct adjustment.
The main reason I had made the sheet is that even on a long log with lots of throttle action there was only a tiny amount of data left for the lean tip in. With some good data we should be able to work out a custom pid that will take out the guesswork & bring it all into line fast enough for roadrunner use.:cheers:

That makes sense with the AFR. your spreadsheet should help out alot. I'll give it a try, how are you filtering it? when I tried filtering it I couldn't get a good enough 'just transient' filter.

[Aloicious]

Okay here's the tables I altered to get a true OL tune in COS3. I probably went a bit far by disabling EVERYTHING I could find on trimming, but hey, it works.... basically every table is completely zero'd out, except for B3802 which is maxed to 140*C. I'm going to be doing some more logging the next few days I'll try to post one up with a tune if anyone wants to see 'em

{B3802} "Minimum Coolant Temp to enable LTFT" - Maxed out to 140
{B3803} "Maximum Coolant Temp to Enable LTFT" - Zero'd
{B3805} "Minimum LTFT Adjustment" -Zero'd
{B3806} "Maximum LTFT Adjustment" -Zero'd
{B3807} "Maximum TPS for Idle LTFT" -Zero'd
{B3808} "Maximum speed for Idle LTFT" -Zero'd
{B4115} "STFT Maximum Correction" - Zero'd
{B4116} "STFT Minimum Correction" - Zero'd
{B4117} "STFT Multiplier" - Zero'd
{B4118} "STFT Adjustment at Idle" - Zero'd
{B4119} "STFT Adjustment at Non-Idle" - Zero'd
{B4109} "STFT Base Correction at Idle" - Zero'd
{B4110} "STFT Multiplier at Idle" - Zero'd
{B4111} "STFT Base Correction at Non-Idle" -Zero'd
{B4112} "STFT Multiplier at Non-Idle" - Zero'd
{B4113} "STFT Base Delay" - Zero'd
{B4114} "STFT Delay Multiplier" -Zero'd
{B4105} "O2 Switch point" - Zero'd
{B4107} "Closed Loop Mode" - Zero'd

[Aloicious]

Yes...it does have trouble starting on a warm re-start. I have to feather the throttle until it settles at idle.
Thanks for that....I'll look into it.

thats exactally what mine did, especially after the cam/MPFI intake swap.
this is the spreadsheet I used ("new version" on the page)

http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2006/05/cranking-ve-approximation.html

well this thread kinda got off track, but I'll post how the transient tables are working after I have some time to work on 'em after tommorow (also trying to rebuild my T56 to swap in the '96 next week hopfully :grin: )

[5.7ute]

I have been playing with quite a simple filter which will give only the actual point of transition, which is include cells where tps is increasing by 1% per 100ms. By playing with increasing map values, rpm, & airflow there should be a method of including more of the lean tip in areas in the logfile i would think.
What are the filters you are using at the moment?

[Aloicious]

I have been playing with quite a simple filter which will give only the actual point of transition, which is include cells where tps is increasing by 1% per 100ms. By playing with increasing map values, rpm, & airflow there should be a method of including more of the lean tip in areas in the logfile i would think.
What are the filters you are using at the moment?

ah, yeah it sounds like mine just aren't strong enough, I think I was using something like exclude TPS changing less than 5% per 200ms. and was trying to filter out BEN above .95 for examining rich, and (not in the same filter) less than 1.05 for lean or something like that, I deleted the filter because I didn't like how it was working, I'll have to try some stronger ones like you said and see how they work

[hquick]

Anyone playing with the .CAX files/transient tuning?
Unfortunately I'll be in the US as of Monday (that's not the unfortunate thing) but I'll be away from the Burb and laptop for a month.

[Lextech]

No Tuning on the Burb for a month!!!
Are you going to be OK.:hihi:
You may get the EFILive version on the DTs (Devoid of Tuning)

Just messin with ya.

Jeff

[Whippled 496]

Anyone playing with the .CAX files/transient tuning?
Unfortunately I'll be in the US as of Monday (that's not the unfortunate thing) but I'll be away from the Burb and laptop for a month.

I would love to be but Mick says the 1mb version of these OS's is tough to figure out......so i will wait patiently for him to work his magic :)

Where in the US are you heading?

[hquick]

No Tuning on the Burb for a month!!!
Are you going to be OK.:hihi:
You may get the EFILive version on the DTs (Devoid of Tuning)

Just messin with ya.

Jeff

But I think you're right Jeff. I'm already getting twitchy. Lol!
My 14 bolt diff just arrived also...so I'll be hangin' to get back and work on that.
As for the 1mb files....Mick's been quiet of late...he's probably upto his neck in it :hihi:

I'm heading to AZ and LA this time. Next year I'll be taking the whole family and moving around a little more. Unfortunately, the Oz dollar was 98 US cents 3 months ago...now it's 65...so spending will be down a little....but I'll still be putting a few goodies in my suitcase. :grin:

[Aloicious]

Anyone playing with the .CAX files/transient tuning?
Unfortunately I'll be in the US as of Monday (that's not the unfortunate thing) but I'll be away from the Burb and laptop for a month.

I've been slowly working on it but haven't done a too much on it lately.

so, away from the burb for a month. :shock:

[5.7ute]

I am sure the break will do you good Howard. Have fun.
As for the transient tables hopefully I will be able to have a good crack at them this weekend. I have spent every morning this week getting my VE dialled in (under1%) to try & make things as accurate as possible. Now the fun begins.

[Aloicious]

I am sure the break will do you good Howard. Have fun.
As for the transient tables hopefully I will be able to have a good crack at them this weekend. I have spent every morning this week getting my VE dialled in (under1%) to try & make things as accurate as possible. Now the fun begins.

let us know how it goes. I've been dealing with a P1404 and a rattling in the exhaust lately (should both be fixed tommorow), so no work on the tune the last few days.

[5.7ute]

let us know how it goes. I've been dealing with a P1404 and a rattling in the exhaust lately (should both be fixed tommorow), so no work on the tune the last few days.

Will do. It will more than likely take a while as I want to try & make it run off a custom pid for roadrunner use instead of making educated guesses & confirming. Though ultimately this may be the only method of getting it close in a small enough timespan.

[Aloicious]

Will do. It will more than likely take a while as I want to try & make it run off a custom pid for roadrunner use instead of making educated guesses & confirming. Though ultimately this may be the only method of getting it close in a small enough timespan.

if you can find a good way to get it in line, that may spur me to get a roadrunner. hehe

[hquick]

What happened???? I went away for a month and R&D came to a halt? :hihi:

Anyone still playing around with the transient tuning? I'm about ready to get back into it.

[5.7ute]

What happened???? I went away for a month and R&D came to a halt? :hihi:

Anyone still playing around with the transient tuning? I'm about ready to get back into it.

Hi Howard. Since you had a holiday we all thought we better have one as well.:grin:
Seriously though my fuel pump woes are getting worse with the hot weather we are having, so testing is on hold until I can fix this issue for good.
On a brighter note I have upgraded to the V2 unit & along with the serial AFR logging once my cable arrives, (Thanks Andy) should give some good accurate data to play with.

[MICK]

Good to here you made it back in one piece Howard.

I have got a little side tracked with some OBD1 stuff...:)

Glad to here your truck is running well enough. Also good to see them fuel prices go down under a dollar. Now you can afford to put the good fuel in the burb.


Things have been quite in this department.

Sorry, need to through some time at them early Holden's to fill a gap.

The code in them 1 meg PCM's is busy and I will need to put more time into it to make something of it.

enjoy

Mick

[hquick]

3hours ago???? What the hell are you doing up at 2.30am Mick?
Get to bed!!!!

[MICK]

I thought the same thing, it was late.

I have an interesting day today, just getting some software in order for the early Holden's.

This should be fun.

Mick

[hquick]

Hey guys....I tried something I hadn't yet tried. I set all of B9000 to 1.00.
Burb would not start....blew smoke and rich as hell.

[joecar]

DESC.001 = Impact Factor determines the amount of transient fuel compensation to be added (the height of the parabola).
DESC.002 = This represents the fraction of the injected fuel pulse that will impact the port wall.
Howard,

So by setting it to 1.0 is it saying that all the fuel will wet the wall...?

I need more enlightenment...

:)

[hquick]

Yeah...I'm not sure Joe....I was just 'trial and error'ing'.
It deffinately would not run. As soon as I changed it back and cleared the flooding...it fired up as per usual.

[hquick]

Today I experimented again. Whilst driving I slowly upped B9000 (impact factor) by 15% increments.
Eventually the Burb got to the point where it would hesitate/bog slightly when hitting the accelerator. It was going too rich.
I did get to a point where I could stab the throttle and there was no sign of lean tip in whatsoever. Infact the commanded AFR is now lagging the tip in...which is ideal (Have a look at the end of the log where I'm stabbing the throttle whilst idling). Only problem now is a full lean condition when I lift off the pedal after accelerating. Is that an issue?

[joecar]

Good job Howard.:cheers:


...
Only problem now is a full lean condition when I lift off the pedal after accelerating. Is that an issue?That shouldn't be a problem, it's like DFCO... post some logs.

[hquick]

Here's a few from today....experimenting :book:

[Aloicious]

Here's a few from today....experimenting :book:

Hey Howard, have you had a chance to try anything else out on this? I'm FINALLY done with finals this semester so I should hopefully be able to work on my tune a little more.
here's what I've been running on B9000 for the past few months and it seems to be doing fairly well. not perfect but better than pre-B9000 days.

-40 :0.787111 0.826174 0.863283 0.893557 0.919436 0.943361 0.954592 0.970217 0.969240
-30 :0.736330 0.787111 0.814943 0.855959 0.885256 0.905764 0.926760 0.935061 0.931643
-20 :0.663576 0.728029 0.767091 0.812502 0.842775 0.865725 0.886721 0.892092 0.886721
-10 :0.593751 0.666994 0.714357 0.764162 0.797853 0.829592 0.849611 0.845705 0.839846
0 :0.532228 0.611818 0.662599 0.713869 0.750002 0.788576 0.802248 0.796877 0.791994
10 :0.487794 0.562501 0.613771 0.664552 0.699709 0.736330 0.750002 0.744142 0.739259
20 :0.447755 0.515138 0.563478 0.622560 0.650880 0.681642 0.702638 0.681642 0.679201
30 :0.407716 0.467286 0.508302 0.589357 0.607423 0.631837 0.642091 0.621095 0.617189
40 :0.366212 0.416017 0.447267 0.540040 0.559083 0.576173 0.581056 0.559572 0.556154
50 :0.333009 0.375489 0.407716 0.498536 0.505860 0.519044 0.520509 0.505372 0.500001
60 :0.300294 0.349122 0.356934 0.423341 0.440431 0.467286 0.461915 0.454591 0.447755
70 :0.270508 0.316407 0.334962 0.370118 0.382813 0.411622 0.408204 0.414552 0.412599
80 :0.253907 0.292481 0.307130 0.340821 0.340821 0.367188 0.356446 0.370118 0.372559
90 :0.226563 0.253907 0.266602 0.280762 0.285645 0.321290 0.299805 0.321778 0.327637
100 :0.199219 0.222657 0.218262 0.249512 0.259278 0.256348 0.265137 0.284669 0.290040
110 :0.169434 0.183106 0.198731 0.221680 0.221192 0.229004 0.231446 0.248536 0.254883
120 :0.147950 0.155274 0.163575 0.182129 0.180176 0.196778 0.193848 0.214356 0.223145
130 :0.130860 0.131836 0.132813 0.145508 0.142578 0.154785 0.160645 0.177246 0.185059
140 :0.120117 0.118164 0.114746 0.122071 0.120606 0.130371 0.142090 0.153809 0.160645

[hquick]

Hi 'J'.
I haven't done any 'playing' for a couple of days. I'm driving my little Suzuki Vitara (Geo...to you guys) to save some $$$ in fuel.
I also noticed my trany cooler lines had a hole worn through the outer layer (Aeroquip...blue hose) from the steering shaft. Today I'm going to run the stel lines back in and use compression fittings to make 6" or so flexible sections ust on each end. Then I'll get back into 'playing'.

[Aloicious]

Hi 'J'.
I haven't done any 'playing' for a couple of days. I'm driving my little Suzuki Vitara (Geo...to you guys) to save some $$$ in fuel.
I also noticed my trany cooler lines had a hole worn through the outer layer (Aeroquip...blue hose) from the steering shaft. Today I'm going to run the stel lines back in and use compression fittings to make 6" or so flexible sections ust on each end. Then I'll get back into 'playing'.

heh, sounds like a plan, once I have some time after the holidays I'll see if I can work on the tune a little more too.

[Aloicious]

Well I upped the ~50-140* rows some (anywhere from 5-30% in areas), and smoothed it out quite a bit, and it seems to be doing better. still needs work but definantly going in the right direction. I'd get a screenshot but I don't have the lappy around at the moment. the majority of the lean spikes are taken care of, still have some rich decel issues but I'm thinking of altering the boiling time constant to work on that, I'll have to play around with it some more.

[Whippled 496]

You guys are making me so freaking jealous.........ahhhhhhhh

[Aloicious]

You guys are making me so freaking jealous.........ahhhhhhhh

I could post some screenshots if that would help...mu-ha-ha-ha-ha (evil laugh):rockon:

I'll trade you my transient tuning tables for your whipple :shock:

[joecar]

Yes, screenshots.

[Aloicious]

Original unaltered B9000 table:
http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq337/guitargeek1968/StockB9000.jpg

After some observational alterations and "autove" type cell by cell logging with paste&multiply style tuning which worked okay, not great, it ended up looking like this, which I have ran for a few months and it was better than the original table:
http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq337/guitargeek1968/B90001.jpg

well, after some more logging and making corrections simply based from observation and "guessing" with some smoothing of the table, it actually is doing better than before, so far, and currently looks like this:
http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq337/guitargeek1968/B90002.jpg

its still far from perfect but its definantly headed in the right direction for my setup at least.

and for anyone not at their laptop, here's the definition of the table:
Impact Factor determines the amount of transient fuel compensation to be added (the height of the parabola).
This represents the fraction of the injected fuel pulse that will impact the port wall.

These calibrations are to suit operating system 12212156.

the column label which isn't seen in the pics is kPa, rows are *C, and the cell data is presented as "%Factor" with limits of: minimum 0.000, and maximum 1.300

[Whippled 496]

I'll trade you my transient tuning tables for your whipple :shock:

LOL...the irony there is that if I didnt have the Whipple and Speed Density tune.....I wouldnt need the transient fueling ability....:doh2:

[Aloicious]

I dunno, I'm N/A, running OLMAF and the transient tables help out a good deal. I'm sure with forced induction its probably worse though.

someday you'll get to play with B9000 though. :cucumber:

[hquick]

Starting to play around with the Transient tables again...finally.
I tried lifting B9007 from 1.99 to 10% but it just caused the truck to run super rich and bog and nearly die. I have it set at 2.5 at present. If I watch my WBO2 AFR as I change this...even a tiny amount....it goes evry rich.
I'm now playing with B9002 (thanks Justin) and it seems to be making a difference to the 'tip-out' lean spike.

[hog]

I dunno, I'm N/A, running OLMAF and the transient tables help out a good deal. I'm sure with forced induction its probably worse though.

someday you'll get to play with B9000 though. :cucumber:
I agree, I am getting a lean spike upon rapid throttle opening esp. worse when engine is cold. I think this is more due to our marine intakes, and the way the truck /van calibrations are tuned to make use of the stock poppets which have a superior/different injector aiming toward into the intake port. This is due to the CSFI's flexible spider hoses that arent dependant on being supplied by a fuel rail like the marine intakes use. Its because of this fuel rail that forces the difference injector angle into the port. Even though the CSFI spiders suck upgrading, they do have better placement, so far as angle into the runner is concerned.

The marine intakes simply spray more fuel onto the runner wall, at a different angle than the stock poppets do.

I wish there was some transient fueling options that were more easily attainable for the tuning sytem I use.
peace
Hog

[hquick]

I'll be changing injectors soon. Resized LS1 36lb at 58psi as opposed to the 42lb/hr at 39.15psi Bosch 'greentops'.
Hopefully they will be a bit easier to tune.
It'll be interesting to see what the difference is....if any.

Oops! Bed time. 3am....again. Lol!

[Lextech]

I wish there was some transient fueling options that were more easily attainable for the tuning sytem I use.
peace
Hog

I know how to cure that Hog. EFILive and an 0411 PCM. You could have it swapped over and running in about 3 hrs.

Jeff

[hquick]

Yeah Pauly...you know you want to.

[MICK]

I agree, I am getting a lean spike upon rapid throttle opening esp. worse when engine is cold. I think this is more due to our marine intakes, and the way the truck /van calibrations are tuned to make use of the stock poppets which have a superior/different injector aiming toward into the intake port. This is due to the CSFI's flexible spider hoses that arent dependant on being supplied by a fuel rail like the marine intakes use. Its because of this fuel rail that forces the difference injector angle into the port. Even though the CSFI spiders suck upgrading, they do have better placement, so far as angle into the runner is concerned.

The marine intakes simply spray more fuel onto the runner wall, at a different angle than the stock poppets do.

I wish there was some transient fueling options that were more easily attainable for the tuning sytem I use.
peace
Hog

Paul,

I can add those parameters to your software as well.

Just need a copy of your tune and the VDF version you are using.

The offer is there...:)


I find what Mick 5.7 ute is doing is the way to go. Work on a clc pid for transient fuelling. You can filter transient fuel out of your VE tuning and come up with better data.

I also see 6 parameters for Steady State and the thresholds at which this mode is considered active. Might have a play around and add these as well. Could make things interesting.

Cheers

Mick

[5.7ute]

I also see 6 parameters for Steady State and the thresholds at which this mode is considered active. Might have a play around and add these as well. Could make things interesting.

Cheers

Mick

Have you had any luck with these parameters MICK ?
The transient fueling pid is suffering from a bit of noise that I havent been able to reduce as yet. As a visual aid in the logs it works great though & has helped in filtering bad data out manually. I believe the noise comes from a lack of precision in the logged pids & will be looking into it before posting up a finished txt file & how to.

[NERDPWR]

:cucumber: This may be a really stupid thing to say.. But are some of these the tables that have now miraculously appeared under the Eng Cal/Fuel/Dynamics tab in recent times.... B3403 +/- B3416.. I was just about to start hacking and there they were just sitting there... Now just to get a grip on this..

[hquick]

That's the ones!

[NERDPWR]

So I guess the next step is Automating the process... !! I soooo love new stuff...

[mr.prick]

When .cax files are first added to the calibrations folder,
what effect will this have on the .bin?
Will the new tables need to be changed and how?

What is transient fueling's end result on performance?

[MICK]

When .cax files are first added to the calibrations folder,
what effect will this have on the .bin?

Nothing at all! Were just adding new parameters to EFILive tuning software. When you adjust these parameters you make changes to the .bin.

Will the new tables need to be changed and how?

Not sure what you mean here? If you had the transient .cax installed you can copy it to a folder to hang onto then just delete it from the calibrations folder.

What is transient fueling's end result on performance?

It's like an Accelerator Pump Shot but you have much more control which makes it a little complicated. Funny as something so simple is made to be much more difficult in code.

Best to read through this thread and ask a few questions, some of the others that are playing with them can give you more of a run down.


I have been playing with some pretty cool stuff lately and was thinking about putting it into .cax. It's based around the OS 12208322. I want to get the Ignition Reference and ETC sorted out for engine swappers. Anyone seen ETC on a 0411 PCM? Found some ETC parameters for skidding.

Cheers

Mick

[dfe1]

I have been playing with some pretty cool stuff lately and was thinking about putting it into .cax. It's based around the OS 12208322. I want to get the Ignition Reference and ETC sorted out for engine swappers. Anyone seen ETC on a 0411 PCM? Found some ETC parameters for skidding.

Cheers

Mick


ETC is used on Corvette 411s-- model year 2002 or 03 if I remember correctly.

[5.7ute]

So I guess the next step is Automating the process... !! I soooo love new stuff...

After giving my head a rest for the last couple of months I will be having another crack at this shortly. The calc pids are a pain to write as they are quite long & tune specific. (until Paul manages to implement a table lookup feature. hint hint) This I dont envision being available for a while.
I will post up what I have as soon as it is all legible.

[NERDPWR]

You know you want too.. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.. I have enough trouble getting out of bed somedays let alone working out whats in between the brackets and curlys..

[Highlander]

When .cax files are first added to the calibrations folder,
what effect will this have on the .bin?

Nothing at all! Were just adding new parameters to EFILive tuning software. When you adjust these parameters you make changes to the .bin.

Will the new tables need to be changed and how?

Not sure what you mean here? If you had the transient .cax installed you can copy it to a folder to hang onto then just delete it from the calibrations folder.

What is transient fueling's end result on performance?

It's like an Accelerator Pump Shot but you have much more control which makes it a little complicated. Funny as something so simple is made to be much more difficult in code.

Best to read through this thread and ask a few questions, some of the others that are playing with them can give you more of a run down.


I have been playing with some pretty cool stuff lately and was thinking about putting it into .cax. It's based around the OS 12208322. I want to get the Ignition Reference and ETC sorted out for engine swappers. Anyone seen ETC on a 0411 PCM? Found some ETC parameters for skidding.

Cheers

Mick










Mick, those skidding parameters you found.... are they specifically for the traction control system?

Thanks

[MICK]

There the ones that I posted in the other ETC thread. You have seen them all ready. Those are ETC control parameters which in turn work in with traction control. They will give you a sharp feel If that's what your after. I can look around for more parameters just need to really understand what type of effect you are after. Sounds like your after launch control and the ability to fine tune it so you just turn the tyre.

Let me know and I will have a look.

Cheers

Mick

[Highlander]

what i want is to be able to floor the car with the traction control and 1)doesn't wheelspin 2) doesn't bog.

[hquick]

Good job Ross!

[Highlander]

There the ones that I posted in the other ETC thread. You have seen them all ready. Those are ETC control parameters which in turn work in with traction control. They will give you a sharp feel If that's what your after. I can look around for more parameters just need to really understand what type of effect you are after. Sounds like your after launch control and the ability to fine tune it so you just turn the tyre.

Let me know and I will have a look.

Cheers

Mick

Can you add those parameters for this OS on a CAX file?
12221588 and 0202005?

Thanks Mick!!!!

[MICK]

I will have a look see and get back to you.

Cheers

Mick

[Highlander]

have you had time to play with this mick?

[MICK]

To be honest, I don't remember writing that....:)

Had a quick look at the part numbers you supplied.

12221588 = custom op 0203005
12212156 = custom op 0202005

Either way these operating systems would be pretty close.

Need a calibration for 12221588 to work with and make sure it looks good, if this is what your after. If it is 12212156 I have plenty.

Could you confirm which operating system for me.

Cheers

Mick

[5.7ute]

I also see 6 parameters for Steady State and the thresholds at which this mode is considered active. Might have a play around and add these as well. Could make things interesting.

Cheers

Mick

Have you had any luck with this yet Mick?

[MICK]

Umm, Yeah I did add them into a cax that I did for Howard some time ago. I remember that I left the data in it's raw format unscaled. Funny you of all people should be asking about them as no one really caught onto what there used for.

I can have a dig around if your interested.

Cheers

Mick

[5.7ute]

When you get time that would be great. (os 12225074)
I was hoping on using these to sanity check what I have done with the IPW work. Also it will build a better filter for AutoVE as you know.
Thanks,
the other Mick

[Highlander]

I thought the tune files were encrypted... how do you check these?

Thanks

[MICK]

Highlander,

I have given Mick 2 bin files to play with. You can open bin files with any software but once you save them they become encrypted.

TC has a hidden test feature in it's winflash software that allows read and write of bins.

If you split a bin down into it's segments and use 7zip on them then they become compatible with tis to web.

In a nut shell, there it is for you.

Mick

[ScarabEpic22]

Mick, more good information as always. Im trying to figure out how I can get enough time and knowledge to hack the infernal P10 PCM. Shares a bunch of code with LS1 and 98-02 4cyl PCMs I know, I just need a few more parameters and Id be a happy man. If it means hacking it, I cant wait to learn. Might take a few years but I can wait lol

And just saw that TC released P10 support recently, wonder if I can play around with it and see what params they have...

[Frost]

Highlander,

I have given Mick 2 bin files to play with. You can open bin files with any software but once you save them they become encrypted.

TC has a hidden test feature in it's winflash software that allows read and write of bins.

If you split a bin down into it's segments and use 7zip on them then they become compatible with tis to web.

In a nut shell, there it is for you.

Mick


For GenIII, alternately, you can remove the flash chip and get a binary dump from it with a benchtop programmer as well.

Assuming this is OK to post here... here is a binary from a 2002 A4 F-body that I yanked with a flash programmer and reordered the data into the format that our platforms (little endian vs. big) are looking for.

[joecar]

Hi Frost, welcome to the forum...:cheers:

[Frost]

Thanks Joecar!

[Highlander]

And Thank you Frost... you've got mail.

Anyways... you will find a lot of wealth of information. Main thing about EFI over HPT is Serial Wideband. It really makes a hell of a difference.