Want to run E85?

[GMPX]

Hi All,

We get a number of Emails asking what is needed to be able to run E85.
I've posted this in the GenIV section because this (for the moment) is targeted specifically to GenIV ECM's.

The most common questions are (which I don't know the answers to) -

1 - Will using E85 corrode anything in my late model vehicle?
2 - Will my injectors / fuel pump be able to flow enough to run E85 AFR's?

We recently added (yet to be released) some new calibrations for the E38 / E67 which will allow people to tell the ECM the vehicle is an E85 engine and be able to lock the E85 default percentage to whatever they want without using a $400 sensor or using the ECM's E85 prediction model which is quite complex and might not work on all vehicles because LOT's of calibrations need to be set up for it to work.

Any E85 experts here?
(Oh, this isn't a discussion about the pros/cons of E85 either :sly: )

Cheers,
Ross

[chevy052500hd]

There is a forumla on the megasquirt site for calculating injector size with e85. They base it off of hp and number of injectors to give you the size you would need. The only thing is doesn't give you is fuel pressure, so I assume that the number they give you is at 43.5 psi. I found it by searching google
here's the link http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

[Chevy366]

I am no expert by no means , here is what I have seen to be the answers to the 2 questions .
1 - Will using E85 corrode anything in my late model vehicle?
No , Ethanol is not corrosive (Methanol highly) , it will how ever cause old tarnish to be released thus clogging filters .
2 - Will my injectors / fuel pump be able to flow enough to run E85 AFR's?
A lot of people have reported for some time now that just adding Ethanol (E85) to a stock vehicle worked with no side effects (except lower MPG) . As we know GM used 42# for Ethanol versus the 38# stock ones .

[gmh308]

Hi All,

We get a number of Emails asking what is needed to be able to run E85.
I've posted this in the GenIV section because this (for the moment) is targeted specifically to GenIV ECM's.

The most common questions are (which I don't know the answers to) -

1 - Will using E85 corrode anything in my late model vehicle?
2 - Will my injectors / fuel pump be able to flow enough to run E85 AFR's?

We recently added (yet to be released) some new calibrations for the E38 / E67 which will allow people to tell the ECM the vehicle is an E85 engine and be able to lock the E85 default percentage to whatever they want without using a $400 sensor or using the ECM's E85 prediction model which is quite complex and might not work on all vehicles because LOT's of calibrations need to be set up for it to work.

Any E85 experts here?
(Oh, this isn't a discussion about the pros/cons of E85 either :sly: )

Cheers,
Ross


Excellent. That will save a LOT of time! Thankyou.

[RetroAus]

I will be switching to E85 as soon as it is available in Brisbane...will be an interesting exersize I suspect.

Cheers
Kyle

[WHYTRYZ06]

what pcm does a 2001 z06 have..?

[gmh308]

So for E85:

B0178 = Yes
B0184 = Actual Sensor
B0185 = 85 (for example)
B0186 = Enabled ("actual" sensor fails test and uses 85% as a default).

There is a B0179 mentioned in the description. Where does this appear?

(plus a few tables need to be set for i.e. E85 spark correction factors etc).

Anyone with any comments on other areas?

[MN C5]

Was this in build 72? Nice feature, thanks...

[WHYTRYZ06]

when will it be available for gen 3 pcm's??

[gmh308]

when will it be available for gen 3 pcm's??

Did GenIII PCM's ever have flex fuel?

[WHYTRYZ06]

nope... they did not

[gmh308]

nope... they did not

Unlikely to see the factory flex fuel listed as a calibration if it does not come from GM like that.

The later ones (E38/E67 etc) have flex fuel capability built in. EFILive has given more access to that with this release which simplifies things somewhat.

There are shops doing E85 cals on LS1's though. I would guess VE table etc and spark are the main areas to maximise the value of the E85.

An E38 flex fuel cal gives a reasonable idea of what GM is doing to support flex fuel.

[MN C5]

I've had several vehicles pre E38 or E67 that were Flex Fuel. Though it wasn't called that back in the day.

[gmh308]

I've had several vehicles pre E38 or E67 that were Flex Fuel. Though it wasn't called that back in the day.

Sounds interesting! LS1/LS6/LS2 ? Truck?

[dc_justin]

Did GenIII PCM's ever have flex fuel?

Yes. Going back as far as 2002 (maybe even 2001), you could get a flex fuel tahoe (VIN Z, L59 engine). It has an alcohol sensor to determine ethanol content as well as 33#/hr injectors as opposed to the 25#/hr injectors that the VIN T/LM7 non-FFV 5.3L has.

[gmh308]

Yes. Going back as far as 2002 (maybe even 2001), you could get a flex fuel tahoe (VIN Z, L59 engine). It has an alcohol sensor to determine ethanol content as well as 33#/hr injectors as opposed to the 25#/hr injectors that the VIN T/LM7 non-FFV 5.3L has.

Well it looks like the EFILive wizards have that covered too. At the very least, the L59 for 03 & 06 look like they have Flex Fuel options listed. :grin:

[WHYTRYZ06]

so can i use the ff option that efi has listed w/ build 72 on my gen 3 pcm or not?

[Chevy366]

Asked a guy who just got through building his 528 if he was going to run Ethanol , he looked at me and laughed , 800+ hp and 2 stage 500 shot Nos , said he would stick to race fuel .
So at what point does Ethanol make it's way into high horsepower engines or will it ever , or has it already ? Lingenfelter has a Corvette that a couple years ago was the first E85 Vette .

[GMPX]

If you were going to run E85 all the time then there is no great wizardry apart from doing the total retune to suit the E85, it only gets confusing when you want to be able to throw in normal fuel and have the ECM adjust accordingly.

The LS1 PCM's used a real sensor in the fuel line to measure the ethanol content (they are about $400!!), the later Gen-IV's used software for ethanol estimation saving GM the need for the $400 sensor. Please don't ask me to explain how that works! I don't really know apart from they monitor the fuel level sensor and O2 sensor trends and somehow calculate the ethanol percentage from that. It would be interesting to know just how accurate it was.

Cheers,
Ross

[gmh308]

If you were going to run E85 all the time then there is no great wizardry apart from doing the total retune to suit the E85, it only gets confusing when you want to be able to throw in normal fuel and have the ECM adjust accordingly.

The LS1 PCM's used a real sensor in the fuel line to measure the ethanol content (they are about $400!!), the later Gen-IV's used software for ethanol estimation saving GM the need for the $400 sensor. Please don't ask me to explain how that works! I don't really know apart from they monitor the fuel level sensor and O2 sensor trends and somehow calculate the ethanol percentage from that. It would be interesting to know just how accurate it was.

Cheers,
Ross

Ta Ross,

You guys have made it easier though to "switch" Ethanol % tunes.

If anyone is interested in how GM's Virtual Fuel Sensing works, and you have some time, take a peek at the patent:

4148

Accuracy is discussed in the patent.

At a guess, with E0 and E10 using the same tuning, within 5 or 10% accuracy would be ok.

Cheers!

[GMPX]

If anyone is interested in how GM's Virtual Fuel Sensing works, and you have some time, take a peek at the patent:
Thanks, should make for a good read.

Cheers,
Ross

[gmh308]

Thanks, should make for a good read.

Cheers,
Ross

You're welcome Ross. Now I just need to find the patent re the workings of crank angle error learn.

Cheers.

[WHYTRYZ06]

where do u find this stuff..lol

[gmh308]

where do u find this stuff..lol

Search for it. :) Not at all easy to find, and yes, from some perspectives, highly esoteric stuff! :grin:

[WHYTRYZ06]

lol^^^^

[nevinsb]

Is there someone who has a LS1 tune that uses the sensor that we can compare to? I have seriously considered this on my 4.3L S10 with the turbo since I do have it available in my area. I can't imagine it is that hard to do. It looks like I just have to enable it in the PCM and recreate a table which is all zeros.

[gmh308]

lol^^^^

Hey Bro, glad you are enjoying :grin: the entertainment and getting a laugh!

Did you get to an answer of Why Try a Z06? :)

:cheers:

[gmh308]

Is there someone who has a LS1 tune that uses the sensor that we can compare to? I have seriously considered this on my 4.3L S10 with the turbo since I do have it available in my area. I can't imagine it is that hard to do. It looks like I just have to enable it in the PCM and recreate a table which is all zeros.

You could take a look at a later L59 tune from www.holdencrazy.com if you cant find an LS1 with some E stuff.

:cheers:

[joecar]

Hey Andy, I'm sorry I couldn't return your call... we been having problems with the PBX/exchange at work... do you still want me to call you tomorrow...?

[Chevy366]

E85 : http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_0801_e85_ethanol_alternative_fuel/index.html

[WHYTRYZ06]

Hey Andy, I'm sorry I couldn't return your call... we been having problems with the PBX/exchange at work... do you still want me to call you tomorrow...?

yeah, gimmie a call if u can joe... ttyt...

[WHYTRYZ06]

Hey Bro, glad you are enjoying :grin: the entertainment and getting a laugh!

Did you get to an answer of Why Try a Z06? :)

:cheers:


nope still no answer...lol

and im enjoying the laughs.... great website...:rockon: :grin:

[Chevy366]

So , more compression and more fuel , hmmm , easy .

[gmh308]

So for E85:

B0178 = Yes
B0184 = Actual Sensor
B0185 = 85 (for example)
B0186 = Enabled ("actual" sensor fails test and uses 85% as a default).

There is a B0179 mentioned in the description. Where does this appear?

(plus a few tables need to be set for i.e. E85 spark correction factors etc).

Anyone with any comments on other areas?

Seems to work fine! Just dont get the E85 on any paint! :shock:

[kbracing96]

Seems to work fine! Just

dont get the E85 on any paint! :shock:


Another NON-factual E85 myth, LOL... Unless you painted your car with no prep work and paint you found in your barn from 30 years ago,:grin:

[gmh308]

Another NON-factual E85 myth, LOL... Unless you painted your car with no prep work and paint you found in your barn from 30 years ago,:grin:

Actually fact. Epoxy floor paint and acrylic car paint. Rapidly gets them both. :hihi:

[Chevy366]

When Flex Started :
http://www.e85fuel.com/information/gm_ffvs2009.pdf

[kbracing96]

Actually fact. Epoxy floor paint and acrylic car paint. Rapidly gets them both. :hihi:
Well, I can tell you from first had experience that neither E85 or even strait ethanol or menthol will hurt your paint if you spill it on it. It's just not there long enough before it evaporate. I've ran a fair bit of E85 though my truck and spilled a bit when refueling as well as I have Meth injection for my turbo that uses the windshield washer tank, that's still functional as such and sprayed wwf, strait meth, ethanol and various mixtures of all on the windshield and paint and nothing is pealing, faded or discolored. But all this is OT, so back to the discussion at hand :grin:

[Highlander]

I have a customer that sprays ethanol in a vette... and everytime he does that.. .the commanded AFR goes UPPPPPPP UPPPP and away

[gmh308]

When Flex Started :
http://www.e85fuel.com/information/gm_ffvs2009.pdf

Great doc. Thankyou.

[gmh308]

Well, I can tell you from first had experience that neither E85 or even strait ethanol or menthol will hurt your paint if you spill it on it. It's just not there long enough before it evaporate. I've ran a fair bit of E85 though my truck and spilled a bit when refueling as well as I have Meth injection for my turbo that uses the windshield washer tank, that's still functional as such and sprayed wwf, strait meth, ethanol and various mixtures of all on the windshield and paint and nothing is pealing, faded or discolored. But all this is OT, so back to the discussion at hand :grin:

Acrylic finish on the car stained in 10 secs before it was washed off. Remembering auto acrylic is a reasonably dated technology. Have not checked out more modern finishes. Epoxy floor paint stained (dissolved?) more vigourously than acetone, for example, within a minute.

And have seen methanol do similar to (acrylic?) auto paint, though that may have been the nitromethane in the methanol too. :grin:

Soaking "rubber" high pressure fuel hose for a week has turned the E85 yellow. No evidence yet of breakdown of the inside of the hose.

This may all be due to additives in the E85 here. Something to watch.