E38 TIS Programming warning

[GMPX]

Hi all,

We just wanted to make people aware that EFILive support is now seeing a number of people who have had problems with E38's after reflashing them with TIS.

To narrow it down, the issue appears to be when the ECM is updated to a 2009 OS from a previous release.
The sort of issues that are being reported are -


ECM becomes locked (can't read or flash) - Use key $E405 if this happens.
ECM looses serial number (lost license data)
VIN becomes scrambled

To make matters worse sometimes the ECM cannot be recovered from this state and a new ECM must be purchased, it really comes down to luck as to what level of corruption occurs.
It may have something to do with the ECM version, there appears to be two part numbers for the E38:
2006 - 2007 = 12597121
2008 - 2009 = 12612384
We think it is when a 12597121 ECM is updated to 2009 then problems occur, it's hard to say at this stage.
The final issue is that the vehicle may actually continue to operate normally even after the corruption which makes the decision of buying a new ECM difficult.

So far we have had no reports of similar problems when using EFILive for programming, but unfortunately people need to use TIS sometimes to put a stock tune back in to a vehicle if they weren't the original tuner or to update to the latest releases from GM.

Please keep in mind that this is not an EFILive issue, therefore EFILive will not issue free replacement licenses for corrupted / replacement ECM's.

At this stage there had been no reports of similar problems with the E67, but that doesn't mean there is no problem - EDIT: Apparently E67's are suffering the same problem too.

Cheers,
Ross

[Redline Motorsports]

Ross,

Interesting info. I assume that if we did a TIS flash, as long as we use the "current" update as provided by TIS then we should experience this issue. Is this just if you try stuffing the new OS in the earlier PCM?

Howard

[GMPX]

Is this just if you try stuffing the new OS in the earlier PCM?

Howard
I think so. If you had a 2008 vehicle with an old 2008 OS and you wanted to update it to the latest 2008 OS on TIS then things will probably be fine.
It is when you try to do the big jump it might fall over.

Cheers,
Ross

[Redline Motorsports]

Gotcha! Chuck needs to absorb this! He is the one that stuffs PCM's with crazy stuff! LOL!!

Howard

[GTPprix]

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here but if any of you are in a pickle I've got a few cases of NEW E38's with Serv #12612384 (along with 09 E67's E37's and T42s ect..) in stock on my website.

[GMPX]

Thanks Chris, good to know for people.

Cheers,
Ross

P.S - A few cases :shock:

[GTPprix]

Thanks Chris, good to know for people.

Cheers,
Ross

P.S - A few cases :shock:

Heheh yeah I've typically got anywhere from 10-20 cases of ECM's most of the time @12 units per case. Also I know alot of you are outside the us and the shipping cost VIA UPS is pretty extreme, email me and i'll get you a USPS quote which is normally very reasonable.

[gmh308]

Looks like GM has planted an exploding easter egg in the E38 :shock:.

To paraphrase 2001 A Space Odyssey....."you can do anything you like to a 2008 and earlier tune, just dont touch the 2009's". :doh2:

[Chuck CoW]

Come now Ross, What are you trying to say???? That the TIS system has....FLAWS???:eek:

Why....... any REAL tuner should expect to spend at least a few grand in new controllers after unnecessary TIS flash failures per year.....ya think?

Ya gotta be in it to win it!:cucumber:
Chuck CoW

[GMPX]

From what I have seen this morning doing some experimentation, do not update any 2007/2008 E38's to a 2009 OS using TIS, you are going to end up with a messed up ECM.
I have performed multiple flashes of 2007 OS's without a hitch, as soon as TIS programmed in OS 12628982 I lost all the ECM info and it was locked.
FYI, the 2009 OS's are - 12617175, 12628982, 12628983, 12628990, 12630501.
As I mentioned in a previous post, there was a part number change for the 2008+ E38, this might have something to do with it.
Interestingly, they now have the warning below come up when programming 2009 ECM's..........it would be nice to know what the 'set-up' is (maybe it's crossed your fingers).

Chuck, TIS has of course never been 100% reliable with programming, early Duramax's are bad, still are, they have a similar issue to this one where all the ECM serial, VIN etc is wiped after TIS programmed them. Still, I am not criticising it, I feel their pain!

One more thing to note, the location of the VIN changed in 2008, so if you update a 2007 OS to 2008 you will find the VIN is missing the first 4 digits.

Cheers,
Ross

[doubledip]

"From what I have seen this morning doing some experimentation, do not update any 2007/2008 E38's to a 2009 OS using TIS, you are going to end up with a messed up ECM.
I have performed multiple flashes of 2007 OS's without a hitch, as soon as TIS programmed in OS 12628982 I lost all the ECM info and it was locked."



once that happened were you able to flash back in an 07 OS?

[gmh308]

"From what I have seen this morning doing some experimentation, do not update any 2007/2008 E38's to a 2009 OS using TIS, you are going to end up with a messed up ECM.
I have performed multiple flashes of 2007 OS's without a hitch, as soon as TIS programmed in OS 12628982 I lost all the ECM info and it was locked."



once that happened were you able to flash back in an 07 OS?

Ditto.....?

[GMPX]

Nope, ECM is locked.
However, Jesse (Wait4me) told me this morning that when he logged on to SPS it did an update, since then he's flashed a few 2006's to 2009 OS's and they were ok, so maybe they fixed it up pretty quick.

Cheers,
Ross

[doubledip]

hhhmmmm seems a bit strange....

if that were the case i hope that GM would replace the ECU's that have been Locked....


so the ones you have are totally useless now ?

[dc_justin]

It may have something to do with the ECM version, there appears to be two part numbers for the E38:
2006 - 2007 = 12597121
2008 - 2009 = 12612384
We think it is when a 12597121 ECM is updated to 2009 then problems occur, it's hard to say at this stage.


Interesting. I was unaware of the ability to even flash an 08+ OS into an 07, every attempt I have made ends up with TIS timing out on the flash portion of the process with no work done. Then again, haven't tried in about 6 months, just flash 08+ to a 2384 ECM and 07 to 7121.


Come now Ross, What are you trying to say???? That the TIS system has....FLAWS???:eek:

Why....... any REAL tuner should expect to spend at least a few grand in new controllers after unnecessary TIS flash failures per year.....ya think?

Ya gotta be in it to win it!:cucumber:
Chuck CoW

Unheard of! I have yet to have a successful 99-00 PCM flash with TIS complete successfully... and yet I keep on trying for some reason with hopes of the process working properly the next time. :shock:

[doubledip]

My Experience with TIS has been like everyone else's. Has its hi's n lows...

Mainly it is just figuring out what settings you need before you connect to a PCM/ECU and flash - once setup right the tune goes in straight away no problem

I have tried many combinations and now can flash tunes into LS1 non fbw and LS1 fbw PCM's and E38's (still havent had/tried an E40) ... This is both Chev and Holden tunes... the Holden pose to be the trickier ones... what GM were thinking when they built the database in TIS i dont know.

[GMPX]

The trick is to always select "Replace and Reprogram", then you just supply a valid VIN for what you need and it should all happen regardless of what is currently in the ECM. Mind you, it would appear by doing this you are also bypassing some checks that TIS has in place to make sure you don't program the incorrect things in!
I don't critisise TIS too harshly, it would be a total nightmare trying to track exactly what each vehicle requires. I can certainly understand how mistakes can sometimes happen. If it wasn't there we would all be stuck!!

Cheers,
Ross

[GMPX]

so the ones you have are totally useless now ? No, I can fix them, I did much worse in the development stage of our programming. I do however have a number of lovely T42 shaped garden ornaments :angel_innocent:.

Cheers,
Ross

[doubledip]

The trick is to always select "Replace and Reprogram", then you just supply a valid VIN for what you need and it should all happen regardless of what is currently in the ECM. Mind you, it would appear by doing this you are also bypassing some checks that TIS has in place to make sure you don't program the incorrect things in!
I don't critisise TIS too harshly, it would be a total nightmare trying to track exactly what each vehicle requires. I can certainly understand how mistakes can sometimes happen. If it wasn't there we would all be stuck!!

Cheers,
Ross

I always do a replace and reprogram but that doesnt seem to help me when i try and program an E38 if i say it is a holden already.. It comes back with cant find ECU please make sure switched on blah blah blah.....

have to trick it etc... then it say must be a new ECU etc.....

also when going from a 99 model LS1 PCM and upgrading the OS can be tricky.. cant seem to just jump right in.

[Chuck CoW]

JUST USE EFI LIVE...

For most of the time...TIS FAILS...ESPECIALLY, when your internet connection is not fast...Not sure why cause the files are cached on your computer.

Anyway....When updating E40s and E38s with new OSs, use your head and DON'T USE ONLINE TIS. USE EFI LIVE for OS changes whenever possible on E40 and E38 cars. TIS SUCKS.

I think the TIS subscription on DVD is better and more reliable....BUT, the online TIS BLOWS...Especially when the internet varies.

LS1 pcms usually die and E40s always suck.

Early E38s have caused problems and sometimes die, and occasionally HPT will make them talk again.

I've seen several T43s die in the middle of a TIS flash and TIS or EFI LIVE will bring them back to life.

I had a T43 die on a TIS flash twice in Chicago the other day...It took me 2 hours to BOMBARD it with TIS, HPT, and EFI LIVE flash attempts to revive her....

Lucky for me, the combo of FLASH ATTEMPTS was kinda like a defribliator bringing a PCM back to life. Not sure why..But, the customer was happy.

To date....I've never roasted a T43 and I play with them a bunch.

Can't say that for LS1, E40, and E38's. I always cringe and hold my breath when I do an OS change.:bad:

What's your experience?
Chuck CoW

[doubledip]

JUST USE EFI LIVE...

For most of the time...TIS FAILS...ESPECIALLY, when your internet connection is not fast...Not sure why cause the files are cached on your computer.

Anyway....When updating E40s and E38s with new OSs, use your head and DON'T USE ONLINE TIS. USE EFI LIVE for OS changes whenever possible on E40 and E38 cars. TIS SUCKS.

I think the TIS subscription on DVD is better and more reliable....BUT, the online TIS BLOWS...Especially when the internet varies.

LS1 pcms usually die and E40s always suck.

Early E38s have caused problems and sometimes die, and occasionally HPT will make them talk again.

I've seen several T43s die in the middle of a TIS flash and TIS or EFI LIVE will bring them back to life.

I had a T43 die on a TIS flash twice in Chicago the other day...It took me 2 hours to BOMBARD it with TIS, HPT, and EFI LIVE flash attempts to revive her....

Lucky for me, the combo of FLASH ATTEMPTS was kinda like a defribliator bringing a PCM back to life. Not sure why..But, the customer was happy.

To date....I've never roasted a T43 and I play with them a bunch.

Can't say that for LS1, E40, and E38's. I always cringe and hold my breath when I do an OS change.:bad:

What's your experience?
Chuck CoW

you cant use EFI Live when you have a brand new E38 and flashing to a Holden tune.... Do that and you will have alot of mysterious throttle problems...

TIS is needed and I have the DVD's not the online subscription.. wasnt going to pay a $1000 to flash one PCM then come day one of the 2nd year have to resubscribe to do another :) :) DVD will always be there....

only ever need it to put a base tune in the ECU.. then flash in the changes later

[Redline Motorsports]

JUST USE EFI LIVE...

For most of the time...TIS FAILS...ESPECIALLY, when your internet connection is not fast...Not sure why cause the files are cached on your computer.

Anyway....When updating E40s and E38s with new OSs, use your head and DON'T USE ONLINE TIS. USE EFI LIVE for OS changes whenever possible on E40 and E38 cars. TIS SUCKS.

I think the TIS subscription on DVD is better and more reliable....BUT, the online TIS BLOWS...Especially when the internet varies.

LS1 pcms usually die and E40s always suck.

Early E38s have caused problems and sometimes die, and occasionally HPT will make them talk again.

I've seen several T43s die in the middle of a TIS flash and TIS or EFI LIVE will bring them back to life.

I had a T43 die on a TIS flash twice in Chicago the other day...It took me 2 hours to BOMBARD it with TIS, HPT, and EFI LIVE flash attempts to revive her....

Lucky for me, the combo of FLASH ATTEMPTS was kinda like a defribliator bringing a PCM back to life. Not sure why..But, the customer was happy.

To date....I've never roasted a T43 and I play with them a bunch.

Can't say that for LS1, E40, and E38's. I always cringe and hold my breath when I do an OS change.:bad:

What's your experience?
Chuck CoW

C,

Are you seeing this mostly with the Mongoose cable?

Howard

[doubledip]

I personally use a mongoose cable.. but i have been to the dealership and used both the TECH 2 and MDI cable with just the same hit miss rate.. both with TIS DVD and TIS2WEB.

[gmh308]

you cant use EFI Live when you have a brand new E38 and flashing to a Holden tune.... Do that and you will have alot of mysterious throttle problems...

TIS is needed and I have the DVD's not the online subscription.. wasnt going to pay a $1000 to flash one PCM then come day one of the 2nd year have to resubscribe to do another :) :) DVD will always be there....

only ever need it to put a base tune in the ECU.. then flash in the changes later

Gotta love those mysterious throttle problems with Holden E38's. :doh2: :doh2:

[Chuck CoW]

C,

Are you seeing this mostly with the Mongoose cable?

Howard

I don't really use the TECH II for TIS FLASHES.... The mongoose is KEY!

I personally think that MDI, TECH II, MONGOSE all suck when it comes to TIS FLASHES...But, it's not the hardware.....

I use EFI LIVE (when they permit such things:angel_innocent:) for full flashes.

As valuable as TIS is....it's like a bad girlfriend.... YOU JUST CAN'T TRUST HER when you turn your back.:bad:

Chuck CoW

[gmh308]

I don't really use the TECH II for TIS FLASHES.... The mongoose is KEY!

I personally think that MDI, TECH II, MONGOSE all suck when it comes to TIS FLASHES...But, it's not the hardware.....

I use EFI LIVE (when they permit such things:angel_innocent:) for full flashes.
As valuable as TIS is....it's like a bad girlfriend.... YOU JUST CAN'T TRUST HER when you turn your back.:bad:

Chuck CoW

Great vote of confidence!

[GMPX]

I only ever use the Mongoose, I don't have 20 minutes to wait for the TechII to program an E38 :shock:

I just heard about this MDI thing, I wonder if GM will kill off Mongoose support now this thing is out.

Cheers,
Ross

[doubledip]

What do you mean by kill off??? (bit hard when it is a protocol - not a device that you choose to program with)

the MDI has been out for a while... and there are a fair few more devices along the same line out/coming out very shortly.. the mongoose is an awesome piece of hardware and they have priced it well (but doing so makes it only able to do certain protocols) . If you need to do all the protocols they have the cardaq but the price is also a lot more...

I am going to prob get rid of the mongoose and go with one of the newer all in one devices soon once a mate has tested it a bit more as they will be able to also program F...F...F... FORD (there said it)

[Chuck CoW]

I only ever use the Mongoose, I don't have 20 minutes to wait for the TechII to program an E38 :shock:

I just heard about this MDI thing, I wonder if GM will kill off Mongoose support now this thing is out.

Cheers,
Ross

http://napatoolsandequipmentofkc.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/GM_MDI.7953116_std.jpg

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://napatoolsandequipmentofkc.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/GM_MDI.7953116_std.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.napatoolsandequipmentofkc.com/bosch_diagnostics&usg=__-sH5-XMMiWUWpYB0XdZClRP84KI=&h=317&w=400&sz=16&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=Oney6rokUVRi7M:&tbnh=98&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmdi%2Bgm%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3 Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

MDI SOUNDS NICE...... Wouldn't you like to flash controllers WIRELESSLY???

I mean, you could sip on a margarita in your office and flash a controller in a vehicle OUTSIDE in your driveway....

Pretty Effen' NEET!

I want one!
Chuck CoW

[doubledip]

Yes well wirelessly is where it can, and i have seen it all fall down in a heap...


At Holden ... programming from a laptop using the MDI

Interent (TIS2WEB)-- > laptop wireless --> MDI wireless programming an E38


DEAD.... :( but what failed ???? was it the interent slow ???, wireless dropped out from laptop to router... wirless from laptop to mdi... i feel the less unknowns the better when palying round with these things :) IMO..

[hymey]

Hi Ross,

Sounds interesting, I have never flashed a later os in my vehicle only the current one. My car's speedo ceased working after a reflash with ign off with the previous software(efilive) release. Was not related to GM software/hardware compatability. So in my case am I entitled to a replacement pcm? As it appears my pcm has been damaged from efilive software using its original operating system.

Regards

Joel

[GMPX]

What do you mean by kill off??? (bit hard when it is a protocol - not a device that you choose to program with)
GM currently has to allow devices other than TechII, they don't just appear in the options menu by magic, if they wanted everyone to use the MDI then they simply drop support for all the hardware in TIS2WEB and only give the MDI option.


Yes well wirelessly is where it can, and i have seen it all fall down in a heap...
DEAD.... :( but what failed ???? was it the interent slow ???, wireless dropped out from laptop to router... wirless from laptop to mdi... i feel the less unknowns the better when palying round with these things :) IMO..
I am not 100% comfortable with the wireless unless the MDI can buffer the entire contents of the flash before starting.


Hi Ross,

Sounds interesting, I have never flashed a later os in my vehicle only the current one. My car's speedo ceased working after a reflash with ign off with the previous software(efilive) release. Was not related to GM software/hardware compatability. So in my case am I entitled to a replacement pcm? As it appears my pcm has been damaged from efilive software using its original operating system.

Regards

Joel
Are you serious? :shock:

[doubledip]

GM currently has to allow devices other than TechII, they don't just appear in the options menu by magic, if they wanted everyone to use the MDI then they simply drop support for all the hardware in TIS2WEB and only give the MDI option.





In TIS you add the devices yourself to the application (thats how they appear magically) - not because of GM. Secondly TIS uses different protocols to talk to the different Hardware The Standard that uses this is J2534. MDI , Mongoose Cardaq are all devices using this standard . GM wouldnt remove it as they are cutting off the own hardware sources/devices.

Note: - I am talking about TIS DVD not TIS2WEB but i am sure that one of the options would be J2534 Pass Thru. (which the tech 2 can actually act as well).

[hymey]

Please keep in mind that this is not an EFILive issue, therefore EFILive will not issue free replacement licenses for corrupted / replacement ECM's.


Cheers,
Ross

Very serious. I would be comfortable dealing with the issue by email but I still haven't got a reply? My email to you has been ignored. In my case it is an efilive issue, you have not written that in this statement? Please explain.

[10sec_rx7]

Joel,

ive had a couple go dead when flashing with efi live... ive always been able to recover them using the trusty HPT cable or TIS with my bench harness..

if you want send yours down and ill see what i can do..

[GMPX]

Very serious. I would be comfortable dealing with the issue by email but I still haven't got a reply? My email to you has been ignored. In my case it is an efilive issue, you have not written that in this statement? Please explain.
What is your Email address so I can search? I don't recall anything about this or wanting a free ECM, did you send it to me direct or support? Maybe it was spammed by a filter, hotmail accounts etc are usually killed by our filter.
I can fix 99% of ECM problems, I would be happy to assist, shoot me a PM, or is there a thread where you discussed this?
I'm still not sure how on earth programming an ECM with the IGN off can even be done yet alone cause a speedo to stop working, that was the part I meant 'Are you serious?' , sorry for the confusion.


Joel,

ive had a couple go dead when flashing with efi live... ive always been able to recover them using the trusty HPT cable or TIS with my bench harness..

if you want send yours down and ill see what i can do..
Google allows one to revile some interesting things about what people say in public. I was not aware that EFILive killed so many E38's for you (5 wasn't it?)
I've searched on here for a post from you regarding how to recover failed flashes, found none, I asked support if they heard anything, no.
Dale, I've never spoken to you on the phone or via Email about any issues you have had, in fact I didn't even know you were using EFILive, I figured since your forum banners elsewhere have the HPT logo on them then you wouldn't have EFILive.
You are probably not aware of the amount of PCM's I see pass my bench for recovery and unlocking from workshops, from what I see with most of the errors, the term you used 'trusty HPT cable' can't be taken as gospel.
Hey I'm glad you gave EFILive a go for the VE SD tuning, but before you throw it in the corner and tell the world it doesn't work maybe put your hand up for some advice from us first.

Regards,
Ross

[hymey]

Ross, you can flash the e38 ign. off, I read it on here months ago. I thought I would give it a try and it flashed in.

I pm'd you 1 week ago and I assume your pm's are also notified by email.

Anyway I am certain the pcm is OK. The car runs fine. But rather then chat about it here. We can in this thread

http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=82646&postcount=1

cheers

Joel

[joecar]

Joel,

ive had a couple go dead when flashing with efi live... ive always been able to recover them using the trusty HPT cable or TIS with my bench harness..

if you want send yours down and ill see what i can do..Hi Dale,

Paul wants feedback so he can improve the product to avoid such failures...
I can see you being busy, but if you don't say anything then there is no way for Paul to know...
Paul is all too happy to receive customer feedback.

Cheers
Joe
:wave:

[10sec_rx7]

Google allows one to revile some interesting things about what people say in public. I was not aware that EFILive killed so many E38's for you (5 wasn't it?)
I've searched on here for a post from you regarding how to recover failed flashes, found none, I asked support if they heard anything, no.
Dale, I've never spoken to you on the phone or via Email about any issues you have had, in fact I didn't even know you were using EFILive, I figured since your forum banners elsewhere have the HPT logo on them then you wouldn't have EFILive.
You are probably not aware of the amount of PCM's I see pass my bench for recovery and unlocking from workshops, from what I see with most of the errors, the term you used 'trusty HPT cable' can't be taken as gospel.
Hey I'm glad you gave EFILive a go for the VE SD tuning, but before you throw it in the corner and tell the world it doesn't work maybe put your hand up for some advice from us first.

Regards,
Ross

i actually brought my v2 cable from Dan at Chip master around 12 months back..

i did actually email support at the time when it first happened... i got nothing of use back other than "it has been a few hours did you get it sorted" to which i replied yes i did get it sorted i did this... and explained what i did, not my fault there is nothing on the forum about it....

im only starting facts here. i have never had a problem flashing any PCM with my HPT cable, weather it is a LS1, E40 or E38 they have always worked perfectly fine..

im not going to get into a HPT ve EFI bashing session, only stating facts, efi live has done all i have asked of it with a few little issues...

[Chuck CoW]

EFI LIVE killing E38s??? Very strange. I'm doubtful that almost anyone out there has flashed as many E38s as me with Efi Live....With NO problems.

I've flashed quite a few E38s where the vehicle power dropped off, customers started opening power windows and moving power seats, my laptop battery died:angel_innocent:, and where I even (accidentally) pulled the usb from flashscan while flashing E38s.....and never had a failure, lost a fuel guage, or ANY other issue.

To the contrary....I rarely if ever use TIS to update E38s cause it sucks. It fails more often that I'd care to say and seems to me (even though the files are cached) that when the internet or wireless signal is weak...It always fails and I've lost way more controllers than I'd care to think about.

In fact, I actually use EFI LIVE to recover most failed E38 TIS flashes...and in a pinch...Hammering the pcm with HPT over and over sometimes works as a last resort.

Some of the early vintage E38s just fail if you look at them too long. It has nothing to do with anything. It just happens.

I have to honestly say...Something else must be going on or maybe you just got a bad pcm cause....

If I ain't killed an E38 with Live.....I don't think it's possible.:bangin:

Chuck CoW

[GTPprix]

http://napatoolsandequipmentofkc.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/GM_MDI.7953116_std.jpg

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://napatoolsandequipmentofkc.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/GM_MDI.7953116_std.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.napatoolsandequipmentofkc.com/bosch_diagnostics&usg=__-sH5-XMMiWUWpYB0XdZClRP84KI=&h=317&w=400&sz=16&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=Oney6rokUVRi7M:&tbnh=98&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmdi%2Bgm%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3 Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

MDI SOUNDS NICE...... Wouldn't you like to flash controllers WIRELESSLY???

I mean, you could sip on a margarita in your office and flash a controller in a vehicle OUTSIDE in your driveway....

Pretty Effen' NEET!

I want one!
Chuck CoW


I've flashed controllers on the bench wirelessly for years, its pretty cool ;)

[GMPX]

im only starting facts here. i have never had a problem flashing any PCM with my HPT cable, weather it is a LS1, E40 or E38 they have always worked perfectly fine..


EFI LIVE killing E38s??? Very strange. I'm doubtful that almost anyone out there has flashed as many E38s as me with Efi Live....With NO problems.

Dale, the reason I sparked up about your comments is that what Chuck has said is about par with what most people tell us. I'm not saying you didn't have problems with your EFILive set-up, obviously you did, however, for only your second post on this forum to be how wonderful HPT works for you was a little out of order.
Let's move on........

Chuck, the state of your V2 unit at SEMA reminded me of something you would find at the bottom of a crankcase on a 200,000 mile engine.

Cheers,
Ross

[GTPprix]

E38's are pretty stout I dont see any way EFI live could kill one honestly knowing what i've put them through in other regards.

[gmh308]

EFI LIVE killing E38s??? Very strange. I'm doubtful that almost anyone out there has flashed as many E38s as me with Efi Live....With NO problems.

I've flashed quite a few E38s where the vehicle power dropped off, customers started opening power windows and moving power seats, my laptop battery died:angel_innocent:, and where I even (accidentally) pulled the usb from flashscan while flashing E38s.....and never had a failure, lost a fuel guage, or ANY other issue.

To the contrary....I rarely if ever use TIS to update E38s cause it sucks. It fails more often that I'd care to say and seems to me (even though the files are cached) that when the internet or wireless signal is weak...It always fails and I've lost way more controllers than I'd care to think about.

In fact, I actually use EFI LIVE to recover most failed E38 TIS flashes...and in a pinch...Hammering the pcm with HPT over and over sometimes works as a last resort.

Some of the early vintage E38s just fail if you look at them too long. It has nothing to do with anything. It just happens.

I have to honestly say...Something else must be going on or maybe you just got a bad pcm cause....

If I ain't killed an E38 with Live.....I don't think it's possible.:bangin:

Chuck CoW

The gravity is different down here. :doh2: Has a different effect on neutrino collisions with flash memory junctions. The air is also denser because we are lower down on the planet. And the water goes down the drain the opposite way.......:grin:

[Chuck CoW]

Chuck, the state of your V2 unit at SEMA reminded me of something you would find at the bottom of a crankcase on a 200,000 mile engine.

Cheers,
Ross

Yeah...AND ...I STILL AIN'T KILLED AN E38 WITH EFI LIVE!!!:rockon:

Chuck CoW

[Dtuner]

I am tuning a 08 H2 6.2 with a E38 no crash yet.. But have problems with reading DTC"s. can you give me some insight on taking fuel away and correcting timing. This is the 1st one to run on Hydrogen .... The 08 LMM is loving life on HHO :cheers: Rick

[Chuck CoW]

I am tuning a 08 H2 6.2 with a E38 no crash yet.. But have problems with reading DTC"s. can you give me some insight on taking fuel away and correcting timing. This is the 1st one to run on Hydrogen .... The 08 LMM is loving life on HHO :cheers: Rick

Yeah....My Tahoe likes the HHO TOO!:D

Chuck CoW

[Dtuner]

Hey Chuck
I'm More experienced in the D-max tuning, such as 3years of developing the Marine version of a LBZ duramx to 640Hp and 1100ft. Lbs.of trq at 3000 rpm, constant load on the Engine dyno... tuning this 08 Hummer with the 6.2 with HHO is all new to me . can you share with me some info on tuning with the E38 tables. and does any one know if I can disengage the front axle on the new 6 peed on the H2. While I have it on the chassis Dyno

[wait4me]

As i posted in the other thread, If people send thier corrupt ecms, i can repair them for $50 shipped each.

The bug has not been fixed yet.. Lots of cars are messed up they just dont know it yet.. :(

[GTPprix]

Odd, I cant replicate the bug with any OS on any hardware here...Oh well not a hard fix either way just wish I could see what all the fuss is about.

[GMPX]

Here's an example of what happens.
Lots of data gets replaced with junk, including the seed/key which is why they end up being locked, of course many of you will look at that picture and say that is junk either way!

Cheers,
Ross

[wait4me]

Ross dont show my 1000hp secret table!!!!

[gmh308]

Bowman to HAL....its full of FFF's.....

[doubledip]

Here's an example of what happens.
Lots of data gets replaced with junk, including the seed/key which is why they end up being locked, of course many of you will look at that picture and say that is junk either way!

Cheers,
Ross

So Ross... are you saying that this error came from flashing a E38 with TIS?

what year again was the OS and into what Part# E38?

[GMPX]

So Ross... are you saying that this error came from flashing a E38 with TIS?
Hence the title of the thread :sly:

[GTPprix]

Hence the title of the thread :sly:

Sneaky sneaky! :D

[doubledip]

Hence the title of the thread :sly:

yes but if you read through it chops and changes

and then half the people here say they have never "fried"/"broken" a PCM with TIS...

as i have stated before TIS i have lots of problems with... but have never rendered a PCM/ECU useless....

just finding it very hard to believe that GM have done what is said... as they have locked them selves out if the seed/key changed


i would find it more believable that while flashing a PCM there was an error cause by communication problems...

[Chuck CoW]

Ok, Now it's getting wierd.....

So, I have this box of new E38's here and computers to tune and send out....

I'm terrified to ruin another with TIS so, I use EFI LIVE to full flash the controllers.

After I'm done I attempt a regular cal flash and it says "bootloader rejected" like it's locked.

If I press the ALT KEYS button, it seems to work on the second try...or the 3rd maybe?

After flashing it, I plug in to check/chenge the vin # and there is GARBAGE in the VIN....

Now, these pcms came in NEW with the red light flashing on the bench harness....They have never been touched.....but, they are locked after flashing them with efi live now....WTF?

Ross, when I'm back in the shop tomorrow afternoon, I'll read the new pcm and then flash it and read it again for you.....

This is crazy.

Chuck CoW

[doubledip]

Sneaky sneaky! :D



;) not just TIS hey


Sneaky sneaky! :D

[gmh308]

Ok, Now it's getting wierd.....

So, I have this box of new E38's here and computers to tune and send out....

I'm terrified to ruin another with TIS so, I use EFI LIVE to full flash the controllers.

After I'm done I attempt a regular cal flash and it says "bootloader rejected" like it's locked.

If I press the ALT KEYS button, it seems to work on the second try...or the 3rd maybe?

After flashing it, I plug in to check/chenge the vin # and there is GARBAGE in the VIN....

Now, these pcms came in NEW with the red light flashing on the bench harness....They have never been touched.....but, they are locked after flashing them with efi live now....WTF?

Ross, when I'm back in the shop tomorrow afternoon, I'll read the new pcm and then flash it and read it again for you.....

This is crazy.

Chuck CoW

12612384's? With 08 or 09 cals via TIS? 08 or 09 or other via EFILive?

Have seen the MIL doing its flashing thing. No firm pattern yet, but seems to go away after being plugged in to an engine, or at least maybe the TB and/or initial DTC clear. More work.....

Also have seen the flashing MIL with P0606 ("I am dead") brought on via an ETC fault.

etc...Crazy wierd yes.

[Chuck CoW]

12612384's? With 08 or 09 cals via TIS? 08 or 09 or other via EFILive?

Have seen the MIL doing its flashing thing. No firm pattern yet, but seems to go away after being plugged in to an engine, or at least maybe the TB and/or initial DTC clear. More work.....

Also have seen the flashing MIL with P0606 ("I am dead") brought on via an ETC fault.

etc...Crazy wierd yes.

Actually, it was a new,new pcm and the cal was an 07 corvette....strange. It was an efi live full flash of an existing customers tune.

The flashing light indicates that the pcm has not started an engine yet.

Chuck CoW

[doubledip]

so when you say new,new ecm that means it was totally blank absolutely nothing in it... and then you did an EFI Live full flash.. how does that work.. do you not need a TIS flash first.. can EFI Live stick in all the base tables????

[Chuck CoW]

so when you say new,new ecm that means it was totally blank absolutely nothing in it... and then you did an EFI Live full flash.. how does that work.. do you not need a TIS flash first.. can EFI Live stick in all the base tables????

Nope, FRESH right out of the box...NEW.NEW.

Usually they have no vin or it's all ??????????????????

There is usually a base cal and os.... Efi Live can put a useful cal in it, but you have to remember to put your vin in the can and then use the scan tool to put the vin in the other places it's needed.....

Chuck CoW

[doubledip]

ok then....

so a new ECU never ever comes completely blank..(even in the US)

in Australia we see them with alll yyyyyyyy's and they normally have some form of Chev tune in them .. but that is no good for aussie cars as there are certain tables that are different and if you push in a holden tune (that you have from another car) then you are sure to have problems (way around it is to have TIS put in a Holden base first)

[gmh308]

ok then....

so a new ECU never ever comes completely blank..(even in the US)

in Australia we see them with alll yyyyyyyy's and they normally have some form of Chev tune in them .. but that is no good for aussie cars as there are certain tables that are different and if you push in a holden tune (that you have from another car) then you are sure to have problems (way around it is to have TIS put in a Holden base first)

Generally at present GM new, new, E38 items whether from the US or Holden seem to come with a 5.3L AFM cal with an A4 trans if 12597121 and OS=12615434 (?) in 12612384.

Tried them with Corvette pedal = sick ETC. Chuck, Do find these work with an EFILive full flash in Corvettes and Corvette pedal without a TIS flash first?

:cheers:

[Chuck CoW]

Generally at present GM new, new, E38 items whether from the US or Holden seem to come with a 5.3L AFM cal with an A4 trans if 12597121 and OS=12615434 (?) in 12612384.

Tried them with Corvette pedal = sick ETC. Chuck, Do find these work with an EFILive full flash in Corvettes and Corvette pedal without a TIS flash first?

:cheers:

I'm not sure what you mean....I'm here now...call me.

914-332-0049

Chuck CoW

[GMPX]

Been dealing with this issue via Email too.
From what I can see the problem appears to be a change GM made in ALL 2009 OS's. If the ECM has a 2009 OS loaded from factory then you can only put another 2009 OS over it. Any attempt using EFILive or TIS to reflash a pre 2009 OS will result in a corrupted ECM.
Same goes for any 2006-2008 E38, put a 2009 OS in to that using EFILive or TIS and it will end up corrupted.
This probably explains why the 2009 E38's have a new part number from the 2006-2008's as they come with the correct 2009 base program.

So for the 2009's, at the moment don't attempt to lock the ECM with EFILive either, knowing what the problem is with the 2009 ECM it might result in a corrupted ECM. I will be able to fix that easy enough in an update.
The swapping between the 09 and earlier OS's might be a little more of a challenge. But we will be looking in to how this can be done.

So, in conclusion I don't feel the problem lies directly with TIS (or EFILive), it's the change GM made to the 2009 OS's that basically makes them incompatible with earlier OS's.

Cheers,
Ross

[Chuck CoW]

Been dealing with this issue via Email too.
From what I can see the problem appears to be a change GM made in ALL 2009 OS's. If the ECM has a 2009 OS loaded from factory then you can only put another 2009 OS over it. Any attempt using EFILive or TIS to reflash a pre 2009 OS will result in a corrupted ECM.
Same goes for any 2006-2008 E38, put a 2009 OS in to that using EFILive or TIS and it will end up corrupted.
This probably explains why the 2009 E38's have a new part number from the 2006-2008's as they come with the correct 2009 base program.

So for the 2009's, at the moment don't attempt to lock the ECM with EFILive either, knowing what the problem is with the 2009 ECM it might result in a corrupted ECM. I will be able to fix that easy enough in an update.
The swapping between the 09 and earlier OS's might be a little more of a challenge. But we will be looking in to how this can be done.

So, in conclusion I don't feel the problem lies directly with TIS (or EFILive), it's the change GM made to the 2009 OS's that basically makes them incompatible with earlier OS's.

Cheers,
Ross

So, when you say problem with the OSs.......Is it the OS and the BOOTBLOCK that's not compatible???? We can change the OS, but not the bootblock.

Can we have a "ROSS from EFI LIVE OFFICIAL E38 INTERCHANGE GUIDE"???:angel_innocent:

I mean...What goes with what....?

The dealer told me that the 08 E38's were different part numbers for LS3 and LS7 in the same year....Does that make sense???

Hey Ross, What would it cost to ship you a CRATE of E38s to fix???:doh2:

Chuck CoW

[Redline Motorsports]

Ross,

Just out of curiosity; back a couple weeks when we had a problem with that 09 ZO6 that you and Jesse helped me on..........I am wondering which PCM Jesse sent me back. It was a different part # then the OEM service one and it worked fine. This would challenge the thought of a specific part # for 2009. Maybe Jesse can comment a bit on this as I can't remember the #'s.

Howard

[GMPX]

So, when you say problem with the OSs.......Is it the OS and the BOOTBLOCK that's not compatible???? We can change the OS, but not the bootblock.
Actually, it's nothing to do with the bootblock in the ECM nor anything actually written specifically to the 2009 OS's, the 2009's just have some data structured different to the earlier ones that when you get the mismatch it causes the problems you see.
I don't really want to give too much away because it will be a nice fix to have in our software when it's cured. But it now makes sense as to why GM had the new part number assigned.


Can we have a "ROSS from EFI LIVE OFFICIAL E38 INTERCHANGE GUIDE"???:angel_innocent:
A provied 'as is' guide, sure. But, I'm away from my main office PC at the moment with all my E38 files so I can't construct anything until next week. The hard part is, some 2009 cars (Z06 as an example) are not running true 2009 OS's, yet the LS3 is!, so you can really base it on the model year of the vehicle. But I will make this list up next chance I get.

Hey Ross, What would it cost to ship you a CRATE of E38s to fix???:doh2:
I'd rather not to be honest, it's a bit of a pain in the butt pulling those things apart, if Jesse or Chris can't help you out then let me know and we can discuss further.


Ross,

Just out of curiosity; back a couple weeks when we had a problem with that 09 ZO6 that you and Jesse helped me on..........I am wondering which PCM Jesse sent me back. It was a different part # then the OEM service one and it worked fine. This would challenge the thought of a specific part # for 2009. Maybe Jesse can comment a bit on this as I can't remember the #'s.

Howard
Howard, the 2009 Z06 is still running a 2008 based OS, not 2009 which is why any of the earlier ECM's would have worked fine. As I said above, the LS3 is running a true 2009 OS.

Cheers,
Ross

[ChipsByAl]

Ross, what about the 2009 CTS-V, is it running a 2009 or 2008 OS?
Al

[GTPprix]

Ross, what about the 2009 CTS-V, is it running a 2009 or 2008 OS?
Al

Shouldnt matter since the CTS-V is an E67 :) BTW last one I saw was running a ZR1 OS.

[GMPX]

I think the same change was made to the 2009 E67's too, Chris, do you know if they got a new part number?

The CTS-V is all 2009 based OS's, I think they are up to 3 OS updates for that car already :bangin:

Cheers,
Ross

[Bruce Melton]

From a hardware perspective the 09 Throttle bodies on Vettes are quite different mechanically and electrically from the <09s. The 09 TBs can not be used to replace the previous 90 mm version for 05>08. Could it be that the OS is rejecting the TPS change?
The TBs look similair but are not. New part#, orientation and TPS best I can tell.

[doubledip]

From a hardware perspective the 09 Throttle bodies on Vettes are quite different mechanically and electrically from the <09s. The 09 TBs can not be used to replace the previous 90 mm version for 05>08. Could it be that the OS is rejecting the TPS change?
The TBs look similair but are not. New part#, orientation and TPS best I can tell.


are the plugs the same on the Throttle body ??

[Bruce Melton]

are the plugs the same on the Throttle body ??

The plugs are the same but I know if you just swap a working 08 for the 09 it will not work. Throws a TPS code and freezes. The physical differences are confusing. Looks like the 09 is designed to be flipped. If in the same orientation the 09 blade movement is reversed.

4614

[RWTD]

The plugs are the same but I know if you just swap a working 08 for the 09 it will not work. Throws a TPS code and freezes. The physical differences are confusing. Looks like the 09 is designed to be flipped. If in the same orientation the 09 blade movement is reversed.

Bruce,

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion, and I may be *way* wrong here, the reason the '09 TB will not work on the '08 vehicles, and vice versa, is that the ETC Area scalar needs to be changed inside the calibration. The '05-'08 C6s (and '05-'06 GTOs) had "4725.0000" as a factory value, and the '09 vehicles have "5636.0000". Maybe Ross can answer this (if it hasn't been already)?


Ross,

Speaking of, I'm in the process of obtaining an '09 processor with '09 LS3 calibration and installing it onto my '08 Z06. Why am I doing this? It's obvious if the car is going to be forced induction: 15k Hz MAF range WITH 127 #/hr IFR range (the IFR being key, so no more scaling down airflow values). I'm fairly sure everything will work properly once I make the necessary changes on the '09 LS3 calibration (basically copy/paste over my '08 Z06 parameters), at least I hope it does. Your thoughts on this, and the TB info above?

Thanks in advance!

[GMPX]

RWTD, I don't think it will work.
You will need to get some sort of confirmation on the differences between the 08 and 09 pedal and throttle, if they are different then you will need to swap them in too.
I did look at changing the 2006 - 2008 ECM code to allow the larger injectors, but it's a mammoth task and probably won't happen.

[gmh308]

Bruce,

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion, and I may be *way* wrong here, the reason the '09 TB will not work on the '08 vehicles, and vice versa, is that the ETC Area scalar needs to be changed inside the calibration. The '05-'08 C6s (and '05-'06 GTOs) had "4725.0000" as a factory value, and the '09 vehicles have "5636.0000". Maybe Ross can answer this (if it hasn't been already)?


Ross,

Speaking of, I'm in the process of obtaining an '09 processor with '09 LS3 calibration and installing it onto my '08 Z06. Why am I doing this? It's obvious if the car is going to be forced induction: 15k Hz MAF range WITH 127 #/hr IFR range (the IFR being key, so no more scaling down airflow values). I'm fairly sure everything will work properly once I make the necessary changes on the '09 LS3 calibration (basically copy/paste over my '08 Z06 parameters), at least I hope it does. Your thoughts on this, and the TB info above?

Thanks in advance!

Educated guess.....the pedal may be different as well. When you get the pedal, the ETC segment, and the ETC not a matched set.....:shock:

Agree with the great reasons to chase the 09 LS3 cal though!

[RWTD]

Ross,

Thanks, that gives me hope. It sounds as if you're assuming the same as me, the '09 LS3 pcm just might run any '06-'08 LS2/LS3/LS7 (provided one swaps in the '09 pedal/throttle assemblies, if they are needed). Is that way I saw? ;)

I hear ya on the IFR limitation issue. I know it's a monumental task at changing tons of code to allow for such.

Thanks again for your help. It's greatly appreciated.

gmh308, yeup, I agree with you and Ross now. I'm going to start digging up part #s tomorrow.

Sincerely,

James

[v8vegaman]

ok so this has been a while. Is there an update that will allow me to run a 2009 program on a 2007 e38? I have 2 locked up and would like to repair if possible. any other ideas?

Thank you
Robert

[doubledip]

at this stage i would say they are door stops... the location of the VIn and seed/key pair changed hence the reason why they dont respond.. I have 2 09 ecu's that have been flashed by a dealer with 2010 OS... they dont respond now...


i have one on the bech right now trying to see if i can recover it at all..

pain in the A$$!!!! hehehe

[doubledip]

Well I have managed to recover one E38 that was unprogramable via tis / efilive / and hp tuners...

it now has the correct OS in it.. my only problem is that the Serial number is all Zeros... will this be a problem ..(my only thought would be for licensing)

[GMPX]

ok so this has been a while. Is there an update that will allow me to run a 2009 program on a 2007 e38?
Ok, everyone needs to understand this is not a problem just the aftermarket tuners have. It's an ECM design issue, there is really nothing that can be done via an 'update'.


Well I have managed to recover one E38 that was unprogramable via tis / efilive / and hp tuners...

it now has the correct OS in it.. my only problem is that the Serial number is all Zeros... will this be a problem ..(my only thought would be for licensing)
All zero's, it isn't really fixed, it seems fixed, but it's not. I don't think EFILive will be able to get that one sorted for you.
There is also every chance that the Ign cycles counter before locking is not at zero, so there is currently no seed/key active, if the data is corrupted and that hits zero it will become locked.

Cheers,
Ross

[doubledip]

Ok, everyone needs to understand this is not a problem just the aftermarket tuners have. It's an ECM design issue, there is really nothing that can be done via an 'update'.


All zero's, it isn't really fixed, it seems fixed, but it's not. I don't think EFILive will be able to get that one sorted for you.
There is also every chance that the Ign cycles counter before locking is not at zero, so there is currently no seed/key active, if the data is corrupted and that hits zero it will become locked.

Cheers,
Ross

when you say isnt really fixed what do you mean..

i would have thought the OS is in there correctly its just that the serial part had been written over when the wrong year OS was first put in...is this not correct.. and now that i have put the correct OS in the settings will be fine but the serial location which shouldnt be touched by TIS when normally programmed hasnt been which is why it is still blank