RoadRunner guts kit?

[s10mods]

Does anybody know if the guts kit is different for the 512k to the 1024k pcm's? it doesnt give a option on Moats site when adding to cart unlike when you add to cart the pcm it gives a 512/1024k pcm difference. I am asking BC I have a 512k RR and I am wondering if I can take the guts out and just buy a header and put it in a 1024 pcm and have it work, instead of buying another RR since when I am done tuning my RR justs sits on the shelf, this way I could get more use out of it.

[hquick]

Pretty sure there's no difference Joe.
I asked this same question a while back.
May be best to ask Craig Moates.

[CC&M]

The guts kit is the same, you can use it in either. I have 512 and 1meg PCM's that I use the same RR in. It works in both.

[s10mods]

so couldnt you just put the RR guts in a project box and have a ribbon cable attached comming out of multiple different pcm's and attach it to the RR guts in the project box??

[N0DIH]

It will work in the 256K, 512K and 1024K....

Can't run the wire out of the box, too far, must stay as CLOSE to the PCB as possible. Anything longer and you will run into timing errors and problems.

I bought lots of the headers and have it setup for 4 different PCM's so far. Just mod a few PCM's up and swap the PCB as needed.

[hquick]

Can't run the wire out of the box, too far, must stay as CLOSE to the PCB as possible. Anything longer and you will run into timing errors and problems.



What does this mean?
The wire from the PCM to the laptop?
Mine's around 5m long with no issues at all.

[N0DIH]

No it isn't. Your RR is inside the PCM, the USB cable is outside.....

He wanted to put RR outside PCM....

[hquick]

Ahhh....OK.
Thanks

[s10mods]

I figured that it wouldnt work, I thought about it afterwords, it was just a thought, what pcm has the 256 chip? is it the black box vortec?

[s10mods]

It will work in the 256K, 512K and 1024K....

Can't run the wire out of the box, too far, must stay as CLOSE to the PCB as possible. Anything longer and you will run into timing errors and problems.

I bought lots of the headers and have it setup for 4 different PCM's so far. Just mod a few PCM's up and swap the PCB as needed.


What did you do for the usb cables? I didnt see those listed on moates site, I am going to pick up a few headers since it would be nice to have a 1024K RR and not have to buy and license another unit.

[s10mods]

another question, if the RR will work in 512 or 1024 pcm's will it work on different platforms like say I have a 01 Grand Prix with a 3.8 which is supported by TC, I wonder if I could install the RR in to that pcm and have it work?

[N0DIH]

Yes! But don't tell anyone, it is my secret.... :secret:


another question, if the RR will work in 512 or 1024 pcm's will it work on different platforms like say I have a 01 Grand Prix with a 3.8 which is supported by TC, I wonder if I could install the RR in to that pcm and have it work?

[N0DIH]

I made my own internal cable, the 512k 938717 PCM is oriented differently inside than the 0411. I have some extra ribbon cable, if you are ordering a guts kit, tell Craig to make yours around 9 inches long instead of the short 4in long. Else all is fine. Mine has been in all winter so far, -24F at worst....

Pick up a bunch of headers, I picked up 4 of them, wish I got more, but I am set up on 3 different PCM's with mine. I have my other oddball to try, but haven't yet, housing is giving me problems....


What did you do for the usb cables? I didnt see those listed on moates site, I am going to pick up a few headers since it would be nice to have a 1024K RR and not have to buy and license another unit.

[s10mods]

I just looked at the flash chip and it looks simmlar but it is turned 90 deg from what the truck one is, do I just run a ribbon cable to the RR or something?

[s10mods]

oops I must have been posting while you were, I have the 09380717 pcm, I have some ribbon cable at work and will have to get this setup, my car is under about 2 feet of snow right now, so I guess this will have to be a spring project, but that doesnt mean I cant get it setup now.

[N0DIH]

If you have any problem, give me a scream, it worked well, soldering/unsoldering stuff like that is a piece of cake. But I have done it for years too.

Remember, ESD protect things! You are on the bus, don't zap it!!!!


oops I must have been posting while you were, I have the 09380717 pcm, I have some ribbon cable at work and will have to get this setup, my car is under about 2 feet of snow right now, so I guess this will have to be a spring project, but that doesnt mean I cant get it setup now.

Edit: Where are you located?

[s10mods]

yea, I work in an electronics shop and planty of soldering and ESD experence, does motes sell the USB ports that have the little blus cover with the ribbon cable? I didnt see them on the site. I'm in Michigan, how about you?

[N0DIH]

By Six Flags in Chicagoland is where I work, live in Rockford, IL. Born in Grand Rapids....

I have one that I got from Molex that trying to get Craig to look at to change his kit to include.

http://www.molex.com/molex/family/intro.jsp?oid=-18121&channel=Products&familyOID=-18121&frellink=Introduction&chanName=family&pageTitle=Industrial%20USB%20Type%20A%20and%20B%20 Plugs%20and%20Receptacles%20|%20Overview

I am going to set mine up with these. Then it keeps it true USB all the way....


yea, I work in an electronics shop and planty of soldering and ESD experence, does motes sell the USB ports that have the little blus cover with the ribbon cable? I didnt see them on the site. I'm in Michigan, how about you?

[s10mods]

that's cool, I live right near GR, those Molex connections look good, I might just pick up some of those, I still wish there was a way to run a header out of the case so you wouldnt have to dissasemble the pcm everytime, but then i'm sure there would be ESD issues also. I am thinking of cutting open the bottom of the pcm housing and trying to come up with some sort of "door" or slide cover, I have a TIG welder so I guess nothing is impossable. I dont really need it to be totally water proof as I dont run my RR on a permanent basis. when i'm done I throw the stocker back in.

[N0DIH]

As nice as that would be, the timing issues would be out of this world. I don't think it would ultimately work at all, or work so flaky it wouldn't be worth it.

Now, that being said, time to try it!!! :gossip:

Get with your local Molex rep, show him/her what you have and that you need a solution for the USB going through a bulkhead. I got mine out of sample stock, free. I still have to mod it up. Craig has the specs on it too, he hasn't looked into it yet. So maybe I will get my other PCM back from that guy up in Milwaukee and mod mine up the right way.


that's cool, I live right near GR, those Molex connections look good, I might just pick up some of those, I still wish there was a way to run a header out of the case so you wouldnt have to dissasemble the pcm everytime, but then i'm sure there would be ESD issues also. I am thinking of cutting open the bottom of the pcm housing and trying to come up with some sort of "door" or slide cover, I have a TIG welder so I guess nothing is impossable. I dont really need it to be totally water proof as I dont run my RR on a permanent basis. when i'm done I throw the stocker back in.

[s10mods]

that's not a bad idea, did you use the "A" type or "B" type?

[N0DIH]

Pretty sure it is a B barrel on the through hole/pass through, so I could get a short USB-A to B inside and a USB B to A outside.

Where A is the narrow rectangular and the B is the more squarish connector.

[s10mods]

I ordered some RR headers, and I have already desolderd the flash chip from my spare 717 pcm, now I wait for the headers, I might just have to dig my car out of the snow to give this thing a try.

[mr.prick]

Other than the "joy" of doing it yourself and saving $110, why not buy the pre-made RR?
Have you tried to install the emulator in an E38,E40 ect.?

IMO
Skip the USB and use the Bluetooth.
It`s expensive but is 1 less wire to use.
You can probably make your own dongle for less.

[s10mods]

Moates only offers the RR for the V8 cars and trucks, this will be going in a 2001 3.8L Grand Prix GTP. I dont think EFILive offers support for that vehicle either, only TC2 supports it. And it is no problem to work with electronics, I work with them everyday and the 44 pin chip is nothing compared to some componets that require a micorscope to solder.

[s10mods]

I just looked up the data sheet of my Intel chip, if you ahve a pcm that locks up while flashing, couldnt you just replace the Intel flash chip, or better yet remove it and replace it with a RR and still have a good pcm?

[GMPX]

EFILive and RR should work in any PCM we support that it can be squeezed in to, so that also means the 4cyl (LS1 style) PCM. But, I'm not sure it is actually enabled to work with it. I think some people actually got it working in the Allison TCM too.

E40 uses a different flash chip than the LS1 style PCM, E38 is different again, plus the E38 CPU clock speed is 56MHz or something like that, I'm not sure the RR was ever designed to run that fast. But finally, the real estate issue on the E40 & E38.

Cheers,
Ross

[N0DIH]

I thought you had said the RR license only worked on the 3 streams for the RR. So it WILL work on anything EFILive will support?


EFILive and RR should work in any PCM we support that it can be squeezed in to, so that also means the 4cyl (LS1 style) PCM. But, I'm not sure it is actually enabled to work with it. I think some people actually got it working in the Allison TCM too.

E40 uses a different flash chip than the LS1 style PCM, E38 is different again, plus the E38 CPU clock speed is 56MHz or something like that, I'm not sure the RR was ever designed to run that fast. But finally, the real estate issue on the E40 & E38.

Cheers,
Ross

[s10mods]

EFILive doesnt support the Pontiac 3.8L does it? I didnt seee support on the list.

[s10mods]

If you have any problem, give me a scream, it worked well, soldering/unsoldering stuff like that is a piece of cake. But I have done it for years too.

Remember, ESD protect things! You are on the bus, don't zap it!!!!



Edit: Where are you located?

does the RR have to be in the v6 pcm before it will take the v6 calibration file? I tried for fun to flash my RR on my old laptop with the v6 file and it wouldnt take it, I tried flashing in my 6.0 file and it worked.

[N0DIH]

You mean the Buick 3800? No, been begging though... Gen III/IV engines make more $$ than us with old school stuff... :(

The RR has not a clue what it is attached to, so that being said, my theory is if you have EFILive with a RR, you should be able to do anything you want.

[N0DIH]

No, just battery on the RR....

[s10mods]

i'm still trying to figure out my port settings, I show in device manager location 0 for the usb to serial converter, when I change ports it doesnt change. I remember I had some trouble getting it to work with EFILive when I got this laptop.

[s10mods]

I tried to program my grand prix file and I get a communication error and a disconnect from RR I can program a v8 file with no problem, and I still cant get my insp 1525 to work with TC and RR, I am about ready to throw it out a window, I hate both my dell laptops, my old one the touch pad goes haywire whenever it wants and this new one I cant run programs that i want. The properties for the usb stufff are different than on my old laptop, like there are more ports but less options to control them, I give up.

[N0DIH]

Do you have latest drivers from FTDI? http://www.ftdichip.com/FTDrivers.htm\ (http://www.ftdichip.com/FTDrivers.htm)

I think these are the ones I am running....

Not Microsoft WHQL certified.:
http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/CDM/CDM%202.04.14.zip

Microsoft WHQL certified.:
http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/CDM/CDM%202.04.06%20WHQL%20Certified.zip


Else I am running the one previous....

[s10mods]

i installed VCP 2.04.14 with no luck. I also tried again to load the 01 GP file to the RR with no luck,it took a 2004 truck file and a 02 truck file with no problem, is it my file or somehting i'm doing? did you say you had an 01 3.8 file on your RR? this is the file I tried to use.

[N0DIH]

Yup, been running mine for 6+ months now....

[s10mods]

I just tried to update my firmware and I got a "firmware package checksum mismatch, package is corrupt" error I just downloaded it here http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=22 I guess i will e-mail Craig and ask what's up.

[CC&M]

I have a 717 PCM from a 2K pontiac, if you send me the TC file that supports the 9389259 OS, I can try to send it to my RR, if you send me the software to support it. I only have the LS VDF's for TC.

[N0DIH]

He posted it up a few posts. The 2001 GTP.cal
I sent him my Park Ave cal to try and it doesn't work either. It fails right after it asks you to confirm the vin. Craps out to a communication error.

[N0DIH]

Connect up with a Mini-USB cable direct to it, forget that ribbon wire. You might want to ohm it out to be sure, but some of the goofy errors are due to the ribbon. USB is sorta fast for a non twisted pair, so the errors are probably pretty high.


I just tried to update my firmware and I got a "firmware package checksum mismatch, package is corrupt" error I just downloaded it here http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=22 I guess i will e-mail Craig and ask what's up.

[s10mods]

i'm at work now, I will try it when I get home, I am hoping it is something to do with the serial cable, I need to get some of those Molex usb units.

[CC&M]

I seen the cal, but I don't have the VDF to support it.

[s10mods]

ok, I guess my RR must suck, I can flash in any V8 file with TC but I cannot flash in a v6 file with TC, I hooked directly to the usb port and still no luck, I even put the RR in to the 717 pcm with no luck, so I figured i'm just out of luck with the v6 setup. Since I was playing, I picked up a few RR headers and installed one in to a 1024K 2004 pcm, I tried to flash a 04 file in to it with EFILive and I get a "currently loaded tune file compatible with RR device, This RR device emulates teh LS1 512K PCM the current tune file cannot be loaded into this RR device." error, I guess my RR is a POS and has no ablities that you guys have, I guess I will have to save and buy another one for my 1024K use. and I guess I am just screwed for the v6 setup.

[s10mods]

EFILive and RR should work in any PCM we support that it can be squeezed in to, so that also means the 4cyl (LS1 style) PCM. But, I'm not sure it is actually enabled to work with it. I think some people actually got it working in the Allison TCM too.

E40 uses a different flash chip than the LS1 style PCM, E38 is different again, plus the E38 CPU clock speed is 56MHz or something like that, I'm not sure the RR was ever designed to run that fast. But finally, the real estate issue on the E40 & E38.

Cheers,
Ross

Ross, I tried to flash my RR with a 1024K truck file with efilive and I get a "currently loaded tune file is not compatible with RR device, This RR device emulates the LS1 512K PCM the current tune file cannot be loaded into this RR device."
Do I need to update my software to be able to flash in a different than 512K calibration or is it my RR that's not accepting the file? Thanks
Joe

[s10mods]

Can someone with a 512K RR and efilive try to flash a 1024K file in to their RR? according GMPX in post 27 the RR should work with anything EFILive supports, I can flash my RR with TC but not EFILive, I have given up on the V6 support, but I would like 03+V8 support which should be possable.

[N0DIH]

IIRC there is only 1 RR, it supports 384k, 512k and 1024k. So files are the same.

Did you get the 12.14R flashed in yours?




Can someone with a 512K RR and efilive try to flash a 1024K file in to their RR? according GMPX in post 27 the RR should work with anything EFILive supports, I can flash my RR with TC but not EFILive, I have given up on the V6 support, but I would like 03+V8 support which should be possable.

[s10mods]

right, my RR says 1024 right on it, and I can flash it in TC but I get an error with efilive. "currently loaded tune file compatible with RR device, This RR device emulates teh LS1 512K PCM the current tune file cannot be loaded into this RR device."

I emailed craig about the 12.14 but I have not had a response yet and I sent it early this week.:bangin:

[N0DIH]

I am wondering... his site says nothing anywhere on whether or not there is more than one flavor of RR... I think they are ALL 1MB RR's. The reason I say that is the pinout is all compatible from the 28F400 and 28F800. (Black Box and N* (older) user 28F400's and LS1 (up to 2002) and all V6 up to 98-05 GTP use 28F800's. What do the 1MB PCM's use?

Edit: My 2003 PCM that I pulled the memory is a 28F800 also so that is why the RR is a "one size fits all", the 717's (2000-2001 V6) use a 28F800, but only put 512k on it. The 03-up LSx uses the 28F800, but puts a full 1MB on it. So I am guessing the 0411's and the like are same, put a 512k file on a 1MB part. Makes sense. so the question is, and it should (I have heard a rumor that it will) the Black Box PCM's from the OBS trucks, 98-00 will support the RR also, as they have a 28F400. But the housing makes it impossible to fit the RR, so a custom housing is needed.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/mompower/Tom/PCMTuning/PSOP4428F800pinout.jpg


Craig's site says:

(http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popupWindow%28%27http://www.moates.net/popup_image.php?pID=118%27%29)<imgsrc="product_thumb.php?img=images/rr_guts_kit.jpg&w=150&h=107"width="150" height="107" hspace="5" vspace="5" border="0"alt="Roadrunner-DIY: &quot;Guts&quot; Kit" title="Roadrunner-DIY:&quot;Guts&quot; Kit">
Click to enlarge (http://www.moates.net/images/rr_guts_kit.jpg)

"This is JUST the Roadrunner emulator, installation header, weatherproof connector, internal standoffs, and USB cable. If you're dead-set on installing it in your own PCM, then this is what you want. Be sure you can handle desoldering a PSOP44 flash chip and soldering down a 44-pin installation header. You'll need to cut a 3/4" hole in the case of the PCM as well. Not for the faint of heart, but you can save some money over the plug-n-play-prepped PCMs. I will have tested your Roadrunner in a working PCM prior to shipment, but if you fail to install the device correctly or the PCM isn't correct or working properly, then you'll be stuck. It's possible to damage the Roadrunner as well as your PCM (fair warning). Don't be paranoid, but don't be a hero either. I'm not looking for tech support nightmares, just trying to save you guys some money."

[mr.prick]

Here is an article on the Flash-Based Factory PCMs (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0704gm_factory_pcms/index.html)

The flash chip is the difference between the 1mb and 516k.
The first RR`s had no flash chip in them and now they do.
It would be interesting to see if you can upload a 1mb file to a 516k PCM.
I`m not going to try it though.

[N0DIH]

On a RR you can... and not hurt anything. The beauty of the RR is endless!

[mr.prick]

Have you done this?

[s10mods]

I have flashed in a 1024 file with TC and had no trouble, but when I try with EFILive I get an incompatable error, I think it might be how EFILive licenses the RR.

[mr.prick]

If you have the license for EFILive and RR, it flashes just like
the stock PCM; forever.

It is nice to know all RR`s are the same.
Moates has options for 516k and 1mb on his site but,
that must be for buying a new one with an OS already installed.

[s10mods]

I think it must lock to 512 and 1024 differently I can't flash a 1024 fiile with efilive but I can with tuner cat

[mr.prick]

Does your RR have a connector input labeled green?
I`m no expert but, I assume that it is impossible to load
1mb worth of OS into a 516k space.

I am not calling BS on this, I am looking for clarity.
It would be nice to know if I can run a 1mb OS in my RR without issues.
I am apt to believe that EFILive sees a conflict with the hardware
and OS mismatch and that is why Flashscan won`t upload a 1mb OS,
something Tunercat has not been made to do.

[427]

I think it must lock to 512 and 1024 differently I can't flash a 1024 fiile with efilive but I can with tuner cat

Something does not make sense here-can you go into more detail?

[s10mods]

The road runner is an emulator for the flash chip in the pcm, it does not know what it is atached to, I have it in a 512K pcm and I can flash a 512K file in to it with EFILive and TC, then I wanted to try and flash a 1024K file in to it to be able to put the RoadRunner emualtor in to a 1024K pcm and be able to swap it back and forth between the two and have 2 roadrunners (a 512K and a 1024K) insdead of buying another one and the license. on the roadrunner emulator, they all say 1024K even in the 512K pcm. I bought the header and installed it in to a 1024K pcm with the green and blue connector and I can still flash a 512K and 1024K file in the RR with TC, but when I try with EFILive I can only flash a 512K file and not a 1024K file, it has to be licensing for efilive.

[N0DIH]

I think I posted on one of the other threads, but the RR is a 28F800 emulator. All the 98-06 or so PCM's have a 1MB memory on them, but many only got 512k of code pushed to them, so there is a LOT of zero's in there, or they just started the write at the halfway point.

If you look at the PCM.Dat in TC2, you do see stuff in there and some ~may~ be the start location. Just like with the 2 timer and such where multiple programs were put on one chip. You had to tell it where to start. The bootloader is doing the same thing. It is telling the program to go look at a certain start location.

If I had an LS1 I would experiement with it, but I would be surprised if you put a 1MB program in a 0411 PCM if it DIDN'T work....

Anyone got a RR and wanna try? You won't hurt the RR, and if the PCM freaks, just reflash..... No worries.

[N0DIH]

Not yet, but I have run many different OS's in my 717 PCM, many that were not intended to be in that PCM and only one oddity showed up, VIN would't write and save, it would stay, but the moment car turned off, it was gone. Oh, and OLM was too.


Have you done this?

[s10mods]

Well I know of someone else who tried to flash in a 1024 file in to a 512k RR and got the same error I got
So it must be the way efilive is licensed to the rr unit. I wonder if another license could be purchased for the other files? So have 2 licenses for the same RR.

[N0DIH]

I'll get ahold of Craig to clarify, but from my understanding there is no such thing as a 512kRR, they are all 1024k.

I will confirm. But if you are seeing issues, It sounds like EFILive is the problem.

Ross/Paul should know as well. The only differences I have ever heard of are the w/flash w/o flash versions. And of course the firmware. I would ensure you are on 12.14R.

Mine's in the car, but later today I will try to blow in a 1MB LS1 file in my RR that is in my 717 PCM.

[N0DIH]

Try this too: http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=34

I sent Craig an email, hopefully he will respond.

But the point I bring is there is 2 PCM's, 512k and 1024k, both share the identical memory, 28F800. the RR knows not what PCM it is in. Which is why you flash RR with the car/truck OFF, it can't even know, it has no way to. I have never seen GM put a 512k part on a GM/Delco/Delphi PCM yet. They put 1MB parts on and programmed them with 512k code.

I with some tweaking to the pcm.dat, I bet that you can put a 28F800 in a black box PCM and make it work.

Do you have the latest pcm.dat from Tunercat? That is key. It is up to "HT", so if yours is out of date that might explain a lot. Same with EFILive, is it latest version? An update came through yesterday.

[mr.prick]

RoadRunner LS1 Realtime Emulation PCM (http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?cPath=53_56&products_id=105)
Why is there a choice between the to sizes?
And what about the article i linked to in post #50? (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=87017&postcount=50)
Its states that `03-`07 are interchangeable but nothing about `01-`02.
Please excuse my ignorance on electronic hardware, :throw:
but do all of the `01-`07 LS1 PCM`s have the same memory capacity
just different processor speeds?

It would be nice if Moates or Paul would chime in on this.

[N0DIH]

Because the PCM is different so they have to, the RR is the same, only 1 guts kit.... Same RR. Different PCM's. The I/O and probably processor is different.

Like I pointed out. Opening up a PCM, 99-up, the ones that are compat with a RR, ALL have the identical memory, a 28F800 Intel. RR emulates that.

There is no such thing as a 512k RR. Only a 1024k....

Yes I am in the industry so I have dug up on the specs on the 28F800, we are just writing to the half we want to of the 1MB part in with a 512k program. Look at the 2 timer with the OBD1 stuff, we have to write to a certain location in the memory so we can access it properly. So in the case of the 0411 PCM, it is EXPECTING to start at memory location 0x512k (just a ficticous #), as the boot loader, tells it too. So on a 1MB, you have a different boot loader, which is in the whole .cal/.tun file you have.

I am expecting the .cal/tun is broken up in 3 parts, Boot Loader (bottom loader or top, meaning where it resides in the memory, which is the first place the processor go goes to look. IIRC the 28F800 can be either, which is unusual) The the OS (which really could be the bootloader too not sure) and the cal tables.

So it would stack the 3 together, and the boot loader tells it where everything is.

I bet you could put a 1MB program in a RR in a 0411 PCM ("512k pcm") in the RR and it will try to run. The processor will probably crash depending on how far different it is. As it is going to be calling for A/D input/outputs that are likely not there. So it will panic and crash. But it will take it.

[CalEditor]

Because the PCM is different so they have to, the RR is the same, only 1 guts kit.... Same RR. Different PCM's. The I/O and probably processor is different.

Like I pointed out. Opening up a PCM, 99-up, the ones that are compat with a RR, ALL have the identical memory, a 28F800 Intel. RR emulates that.

There is no such thing as a 512k RR. Only a 1024k....

Yes I am in the industry so I have dug up on the specs on the 28F800, we are just writing to the half we want to of the 1MB part in with a 512k program. Look at the 2 timer with the OBD1 stuff, we have to write to a certain location in the memory so we can access it properly. So in the case of the 0411 PCM, it is EXPECTING to start at memory location 0x512k (just a ficticous #), as the boot loader, tells it too. So on a 1MB, you have a different boot loader, which is in the whole .cal/.tun file you have.

I am expecting the .cal/tun is broken up in 3 parts, Boot Loader (bottom loader or top, meaning where it resides in the memory, which is the first place the processor go goes to look. IIRC the 28F800 can be either, which is unusual) The the OS (which really could be the bootloader too not sure) and the cal tables.

So it would stack the 3 together, and the boot loader tells it where everything is.

I bet you could put a 1MB program in a RR in a 0411 PCM ("512k pcm") in the RR and it will try to run. The processor will probably crash depending on how far different it is. As it is going to be calling for A/D input/outputs that are likely not there. So it will panic and crash. But it will take it.

Currently we know you have to follow the Northstar. If you read my chip it will give me a chance to mess up that Northstar. :grin:
Get working :angel_innocent:

[CC&M]

Because the PCM is different so they have to, the RR is the same, only 1 guts kit.... Same RR. Different PCM's. The I/O and probably processor is different.

Like I pointed out. Opening up a PCM, 99-up, the ones that are compat with a RR, ALL have the identical memory, a 28F800 Intel. RR emulates that.

There is no such thing as a 512k RR. Only a 1024k....

Yes I am in the industry so I have dug up on the specs on the 28F800, we are just writing to the half we want to of the 1MB part in with a 512k program. Look at the 2 timer with the OBD1 stuff, we have to write to a certain location in the memory so we can access it properly. So in the case of the 0411 PCM, it is EXPECTING to start at memory location 0x512k (just a ficticous #), as the boot loader, tells it too. So on a 1MB, you have a different boot loader, which is in the whole .cal/.tun file you have.

I am expecting the .cal/tun is broken up in 3 parts, Boot Loader (bottom loader or top, meaning where it resides in the memory, which is the first place the processor go goes to look. IIRC the 28F800 can be either, which is unusual) The the OS (which really could be the bootloader too not sure) and the cal tables.

So it would stack the 3 together, and the boot loader tells it where everything is.

I bet you could put a 1MB program in a RR in a 0411 PCM ("512k pcm") in the RR and it will try to run. The processor will probably crash depending on how far different it is. As it is going to be calling for A/D input/outputs that are likely not there. So it will panic and crash. But it will take it.

The 512K PCM's use an intel AB28F400B memory chip, the 1 megs have an AMD AT28F800B, so to say the least they are not identical, at least not in the 12200411 and the 12589463 that I own.

[mr.prick]

There is no such thing as a 512k RR. Only a 1024k....

I`m not trying to argue but my RR clearly is labeled 516k.
If it can hold a 1mb file, cool.


I bet you could put a 1MB program in a RR in a 0411 PCM ("512k pcm") in the RR and it will try to run. The processor will probably crash depending on how far different it is. As it is going to be calling for A/D input/outputs that are likely not there. So it will panic and crash. But it will take it.

If you can upload a 1mb file, why do it if it will crash? :doh2:
Being able to load a file is one thing, but not being able to use it is another.

My interest in this topic was the possibility of being able to to use the RR
for a GEN IV motor swap.
But I remembered that there was no LS1 based OS that is
compatible with a 58x reluctor.

[s10mods]

I'll get ahold of Craig to clarify, but from my understanding there is no such thing as a 512kRR, they are all 1024k.

I will confirm. But if you are seeing issues, It sounds like EFILive is the problem.

Ross/Paul should know as well. The only differences I have ever heard of are the w/flash w/o flash versions. And of course the firmware. I would ensure you are on 12.14R.

Mine's in the car, but later today I will try to blow in a 1MB LS1 file in my RR that is in my 717 PCM.


I am able to flash in a 1024K file with TC but not with EFILive as I have stated before, I am not able to flash in the 3800V6 file, but I know of 2 people who can and they are both running 12.14 firmware and I am running 12.13 so that must be my error for the V6 file, and it must be efilive on the not being able to put in a 1024K file.

The PCM itself may be labeled as a 512K, but the RR's are labeled as 1024K. I opened my 512K RR pcm and the RR emualtor is labeled 1024K, and I can flash it as such with TC.

[Craig Moates]

Oh my....

The RR is capable of emulating up to 1024k. It doesn't care what PCM it is installed into personally, but it does provide some info to the software side so things can be done a bit more judiciously.

The first 2 digits of the serial number indicate the 'intended' or 'installed' usage. This is typically either 01 (for 512k) or 02 (for 1meg). This is almost entirely specified in order to facilitate correct OS matching etc with the target device from the software perspective.

EFI Live uses this part of the serial # to determine what types of binaries/tunes it should be allowed to upload. This typically will help to prevent confusion. As folks swap RRs across multiple PCMs, that goal won't necessarily be achieved.

I don't believe TC has a 'check' in place on the serial # to try and determine PCM type. The 'check' or the refusal to upload/sync from EFI's side can be worked around I believe, contact Paul or Ross for details on this if necessary.

The V6 is a different animal, mostly 512k but still not identified via 01 or 02. I think I have a placeholder in there like 04 = 'other'.

Keep in mind that uploading a file into a RR that is installed into a DIFFERENT type PCM than what the file is intended to be functional within has no hope of working.

Also, on the FW 12.13 -> 12.14, the only difference is a modification to smooth out the RTACS. With 12.13, it would occasionally hiccup a bit. No other changes.

Hope this helps,
Craig

[mr.prick]

Keep in mind that uploading a file into a RR that is installed into a DIFFERENT type PCM than what the file is intended to be functional within has no hope of working.


Thanks for clarifying this.



EFI Live uses this part of the serial # to determine what types of binaries/tunes it should be allowed to upload. This typically will help to
I don't believe TC has a 'check' in place on the serial # to try and determine PCM type. The 'check' or the refusal to upload/sync from EFI's side can be worked around I believe, contact Paul or Ross for details on this if necessary.

Looks like a little more thought goes into EFILive as opposed to the "other" tuning software that is out there. :lookaround:

[s10mods]

well I finally got my RR updated to 12.14 from this http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=9613 post number 10 thanks limited cv8r. but I still cant flash my rr with the v6 cal files, I e-mailed craig a few times with no response, If I knew a new rr would let me flash a v6 cal to it I would buy one in a heartbeat, I am driving my car now and it needs a little tuning and I cant even think of the old way.

[N0DIH]

Wish you were close by so we could look at it and see what is up. Mine has done V6 files great from day 1. Did V6 before anything else. I'm puzzled!

[limited cv8r]

These are the serials from two of my RR's -0107051712445267,0206092319290250. One is a 512,one is a 1024. As you can see,like craig stated in an earlier post the first two digits determine how EFILive sees your RR. So what we need is for the check to be removed or able to be bypassed so that we can flash whatever we like into our RR's with EFILive. I guess this can only be done by Ross if he is willing to let EFILive users have some more fun with their software and RR's and hopefully make it a better product.

On a side note if Craig reads this,has there been any work done towards emulating the later model ECM's? e.g E40,E38 etc.

[s10mods]

that would be great, I am using Tuner Cat to try and flash my v6 files in to my RR, but to be able to use EFILive with more than just the 01-02 would be nice too. I wish EFILive would come out with V6 support, that would be sweet.

[s10mods]

Wish you were close by so we could look at it and see what is up. Mine has done V6 files great from day 1. Did V6 before anything else. I'm puzzled!

what version of the RR program are you using? and what version are your vdf's? this is the only other thing I can think of it being, I am now running V12.14 firmware and I have tried to flash it on 3 different computers now with no luck. I can even flash in a 99 truck file, but not a 98, and nothing v6 can I flash in. I e-mailed craig a few times now with no response, I am considring buying another RR and just hope that maybe it's my RR and the new one will accept the file.

[Stealth97]

what version of the RR program are you using? and what version are your vdf's? this is the only other thing I can think of it being, I am now running V12.14 firmware and I have tried to flash it on 3 different computers now with no luck. I can even flash in a 99 truck file, but not a 98, and nothing v6 can I flash in. I e-mailed craig a few times now with no response, I am considring buying another RR and just hope that maybe it's my RR and the new one will accept the file.

I have TC and my RR sitting right here. I'm going to try to flash in a 97 truck file I have. If you post or point me to a post where a V6 file is, I will try to flash it into the RR right now for you. If it works, maybe we can work out a trade. =) Save you $600.

S10mods=John, right? You have my old TC or your brother does.

Eric

[s10mods]

Yea, you sold your old tc to my brother, I'm joe. I think there is a post in this thread that has my v6 file in it, I'm not at home now and am posting from my cell phone.

[mr.prick]

Has anyone installed the RR in a CAN based PCM yet?
Can it be done?

[Stealth97]

Yea, you sold your old tc to my brother, I'm joe. I think there is a post in this thread that has my v6 file in it, I'm not at home now and am posting from my cell phone.

I will try to look around for that file carefully later tonight and report back. I'll find it somewhere.

If I can upload the V6 file into my RR, I'll pay for my end of shipping and send it to you and you send me yours. Just the guts kit so we keep the PCM serial the same I think and we'll just clarify it with Craig Moates that we are swapping RR's. I'll reinstall EFI Live if thats ok with Paul and Blacky so as to not eat a license. As long as nobody gets any feathers ruffled and my RR actually takes a V6 file, it looks like this will get you to where you want to be and you seem a lot further along than I am.

Besides, the only V6 I'd ever install it in would be a 2002 S10 (girlfriends truck) and she won't even let me plug into the OBD II port yet. She is serious with her vehicle (50k mile stock I think ZQ8 package? the lowered non extreme one). Both our trucks are blue. I think I found a keeper! =)

Eric

[s10mods]

I will try to look around for that file carefully later tonight and report back. I'll find it somewhere.

If I can upload the V6 file into my RR, I'll pay for my end of shipping and send it to you and you send me yours. Just the guts kit so we keep the PCM serial the same I think and we'll just clarify it with Craig Moates that we are swapping RR's. I'll reinstall EFI Live if thats ok with Paul and Blacky so as to not eat a license. As long as nobody gets any feathers ruffled and my RR actually takes a V6 file, it looks like this will get you to where you want to be and you seem a lot further along than I am.

Besides, the only V6 I'd ever install it in would be a 2002 S10 (girlfriends truck) and she won't even let me plug into the OBD II port yet. She is serious with her vehicle (50k mile stock I think ZQ8 package? the lowered non extreme one). Both our trucks are blue. I think I found a keeper! =)

Eric

Thanks Eric, I think the serial number is embedded in the RR, so even the guts kit swap is going to have issues I think, I'm not done trying yet, let me try another person for help then I will let you know about the swap.

[s10mods]

boy it sure is great taking 2+ hours just to adjust the TCC in my trans since I cant get my RR to work in my v6, I when there are known others who get this to work. ive sent Craig 4 or more emails with no response, must be he doesnt want to sell any RR's since I have even offered to buy another one, I dont even think he checks his e-mail, I only had 1 response right after he posted here, man this is really annoying!! :ranting:

[mr.prick]

Send him a PM.
It is not like him to not respond promptly to email,
he may not have gotten it or may not be able to.

[Stealth97]

boy it sure is great taking 2+ hours just to adjust the TCC in my trans since I cant get my RR to work in my v6, I when there are known others who get this to work. ive sent Craig 4 or more emails with no response, must be he doesnt want to sell any RR's since I have even offered to buy another one, I dont even think he checks his e-mail, I only had 1 response right after he posted here, man this is really annoying!! :ranting:

Did you use the email form on his website? He usually responds to me on the first day. Maybe because your problem is complicated? I'd use the form on his website instead of his direct address.

I'm going to try to load the V6 tune in right now actually once I find it here. I guess in the name of us being tuning brothers, I'll eat my spare license swapping RR's for you if you would like if it takes the V6 file.

[s10mods]

Did you use the email form on his website? He usually responds to me on the first day. Maybe because your problem is complicated? I'd use the form on his website instead of his direct address.

I'm going to try to load the V6 tune in right now actually once I find it here. I guess in the name of us being tuning brothers, I'll eat my spare license swapping RR's for you if you would like if it takes the V6 file.

Dont try to waste an EFILIVE license, EFI live doesnt support the v6 files, only tunercat does. if we did swap RR units i believe we would have to contact paul or ross to have our licenses swapped. i am still trying to get mine to work, I just need to get ahold of Craig.

[Stealth97]

Dont try to waste an EFILIVE license, EFI live doesnt support the v6 files, only tunercat does. if we did swap RR units i believe we would have to contact paul or ross to have our licenses swapped. i am still trying to get mine to work, I just need to get ahold of Craig.

I meant I'll just spend a license to tune your RR in my hands if we do swap. I guess we could bother paul or ross but I have a license for the time being. =)

[Stealth97]

I just programmed your 2001 .cal file and it seemed to work fine except when I tried to read it the other software gave an error box saying the file has one or more incorrect checksums. That checksums may may be disabled or the file corrupt.

Now I programmed your 98 file. Again, seemed to work fine. Read it and same safety box.

My girlfriend has a 2002 V6 S10 and so does my dad. Lets figure out how I can test my RR on a live V6 for you on this end and then we will swap and I'll try to figure out why yours doesn't work.

I'm going to TC her V6 when she is sleeping tonight (LOL!). Can I program it into my 512k V8 RR and it will work or do I need a V6 PCM? I have a spare V6 PCM if this becomes necessary.

Let me know asap so I can go try this out.

Eric

[s10mods]

if it is a v6 s10 it should be the 0411 pcm which I assume is what your RR is, mine is a 0411, the V6 car pcm is different, it is a 717. your RR should work just fine in a 2002 S10, but you would have to swap the guts out in to a 717 to make sure it totally works, then find a 2001 ish L67 3.8 717 equipped FWD car for testing.

[s10mods]

IT WORKS!!!!!!!! I just have to give props to John from TC, I sent him an e-mail and I had a response within 12 hrs with the fix, I had an old version of the RR program was my problem. any time I have ever had a question he always responds way faster than anybody i have ever delt with. Thank you John :master:

[GMPX]

Guys, on the V6 PCM, we started to add support for them some time back but the project never got completed. At that time the E38 & E67 ECM's just hit the streets and we thought that support for them was more important than spending another month or so on the V6 PCM.
2 years on unfortunately we just haven't had a chance to get back to the V6 PCM again.
On a positive note though, we were working on all PCM's from about 98 through to the last of the 3800's which I think is still used in one model using the P05 PCM.
One day we'll get there.

With Craig, I am sure he now has someone employed full time to handle support, check he's website to see if there is a support@ type Email address rather than trying to get him direct.

Cheers,
Ross

[Stealth97]

IT WORKS!!!!!!!! I just have to give props to John from TC, I sent him an e-mail and I had a response within 12 hrs with the fix, I had an old version of the RR program was my problem. any time I have ever had a question he always responds way faster than anybody i have ever delt with. Thank you John :master:

Awesome!! Glad to hear it.

[limited cv8r]

I guess the obvious question for ross or paul then is are they willing to let efilive users have the same functionality with thier RR's as TC users by removing the serial check feature or giving people a way to work around it?

[GMPX]

It's got nothing to do with the serial check, EFILive Tune has no idea what a 3800 V6 PCM file is. You can't just load a file in to some software and it just works!, EFILive needs to be understand the file layout of the V6 PCM, it needs to know map locations and layouts, at present none of this is defined in the software. If it was a 2 day job we would have done it a long time ago, unfortunately it is not.

RR should work on the 4cyl PCM though as the Tune software recognises those files.

Cheers,
Ross

[Stealth97]

It's got nothing to do with the serial check, EFILive Tune has no idea what a 3800 V6 PCM file is. You can't just load a file in to some software and it just works!, EFILive needs to be understand the file layout of the V6 PCM, it needs to know map locations and layouts, at present none of this is defined in the software. If it was a 2 day job we would have done it a long time ago, unfortunately it is not.

RR should work on the 4cyl PCM though as the Tune software recognises those files.

Cheers,
Ross

Ross, John and Joe are tuning their RoadRunner with TunerCATS. TunerCATS and the RR use a different operating system than EFI Live and the RoadRunner and so basically you cannot tune with TC and then try to read with EFI Live. When you switch between the two softwares, it erases your RoadRunner completely.

Just so everybody is in the loop here. Joe, John and myself all own EFI Live and TunerCATS. We all started with TunerCATS because we didn't know whether to pick HorsePowerTuners, EFI Live, or if another product on the market had any advantage (Hypertech, Superchips, LT1Edit) or just forking out $10K for the GM stuff would be our best bet. We discussed this in a forum post for ages.

TunerCATS allowed us to program unlimited PCM's (for playing and learning) and had a very attractive price tag. A few hundred dollars and then you buy Definitions for more cars if you need them, rather than one license per car as EFI Live and others seem to do. EFI Live is also about $800 to get started with. The entry in can be steep. Remember, I'm only 27 today. I was much younger and much poorer back then.

So a bunch of us got into the Group Buy and bought TunerCATS. We are glad we did because it was only offered a short while. Less than a year I think but not sure.

After using TC and seeing screenshots of the updates to EFI Live and the other software, we all decided that while it had its benefit other software (with that higher price tag) was worth the extra money it cost.

So a bunch of guys bought EFI Live and I followed soon thereafter (when I got an extra $800, phew). TC has advantages, and so does EFI Live. EFI Live is an awesome product, as is TC. Support for TC is slower and less but still there. Support for EFI Live, well, you know the deal so far! Excellent! I guess with EFI Live you are paying for updates and support with your $800 and it does show.

Have I gotten my $800 worth? CERTAINLY! Commercial Scan and Tune was the best investment so far. Still have one license left I haven't used.

Eric

[GMPX]

When you switch between the two softwares, it erases your RoadRunner completely.
Right, now I see the problem, well, I don't really know what is going on but I 'get it'.

Cheers,
Ross

[s10mods]

It's got nothing to do with the serial check, EFILive Tune has no idea what a 3800 V6 PCM file is. You can't just load a file in to some software and it just works!, EFILive needs to be understand the file layout of the V6 PCM, it needs to know map locations and layouts, at present none of this is defined in the software. If it was a 2 day job we would have done it a long time ago, unfortunately it is not.

RR should work on the 4cyl PCM though as the Tune software recognises those files.

Cheers,
Ross

Ross, I think the question was to give the ablilty to flash any tune supported by EFILive in to your licensed RR unit weather it is licensed as a 512K or 1024K, I could not flash a 1024K file in my "512K" RR, EFILive told me that my RR was a 512K and that the file was not compatible..

[mr.prick]

Ross, I think the question was to give the ablilty to flash any tune supported by EFILive in to your licensed RR unit weather it is licensed as a 512K or 1024K, I could not flash a 1024K file in my "512K" RR, EFILive told me that my RR was a 512K and that the file was not compatible..


Keep in mind that uploading a file into a RR that is installed into a DIFFERENT type PCM than what the file is intended to be functional within has no hope of working.


post #70 (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=87476&postcount=70)

[s10mods]

post #70 (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=87476&postcount=70)


you dont understand, What is being said in that post is that you cannot flash a 1024K file in a RR that is installed in a 512K pcm and have it work. The RR will accept any file, it is assumed that the RR will be installed in the correct pcm for which the file is intended. I now have a 717 pcm running a RR, I also have a 242 pcm that is setup to install the RR. what we are saying is it would be nice to be able to flash any supported EFILive file in to a RR, but it is locked to the file that you originally purchased it for. IE if you bought a 1024K RR you can only flash 1024K files to it with with EFILive, if you bought a 512K RR then you can only flash a 512K file to it with EFILive. I can use TC with the 411, the 717, and the 242 all with the same RR, not locked.

[GMPX]

I might be wrong here as I am only going off memory, but at some stage Craig might have had 2 x RR types for the LS1, 512K & 1Mb, obviously programming a 1Mb file in to a RR 512K PCM would result in problems, and vica versa.
It sounds like we have some sanity checks involved more than a money grab exercise forcing you to purchase both types.

Cheers,
Ross

[Cougar281]

How different are the LLY, E40, E38 and similar ECM's from the PCM's that the RR currently works in, electricly? I know the above ECM's have a "Fitment issue" with regards to the RR, but if one got brave and took apart one of the ECM's, would a RR "Guts Kit" work with one from an electrical standpoint? How about the LBZ/LMM? They're 2MB, IIRC, but if the RR was upgraded to support 2MB ECMs, would it work with a LBZ or LMM ECM?

[Stealth97]

I might be wrong here as I am only going off memory, but at some stage Craig might have had 2 x RR types for the LS1, 512K & 1Mb, obviously programming a 1Mb file in to a RR 512K PCM would result in problems, and vica versa.
It sounds like we have some sanity checks involved more than a money grab exercise forcing you to purchase both types.

Cheers,
Ross

Correct. Can you add something in the Advanced Options to allow S10Mods to flash a 1024k file into his 512k RR? Maybe an OverRide?

[s10mods]

I might be wrong here as I am only going off memory, but at some stage Craig might have had 2 x RR types for the LS1, 512K & 1Mb, obviously programming a 1Mb file in to a RR 512K PCM would result in problems, and vica versa.
It sounds like we have some sanity checks involved more than a money grab exercise forcing you to purchase both types.

Cheers,
Ross

check out post 70, http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=87476&postcount=70
Craig said the RR units will accept up to a 1mb file and that they dont care what pcm they are installed in to. what he is refering to not working is if you upload a file in to it that is not a match to the pcm the RR is installed in, that is what wont work. like if I didnt remove the emulator from my LS1 pcm and tried to run the ls1 pcm in my v6, that wont work. but since I put the RR in a v6 pcm and flashed the v6 file, it now works. what we are wondering is can EFILive give the permition to flash a 1mb file in to our purchased as 512K RR and vice versa? for this to work correctly it is assumed that the RR will be installed in to the proper pcm for which the file is intended for.

[GMPX]

How different are the LLY, E40, E38 and similar ECM's from the PCM's that the RR currently works in, electricly? I know the above ECM's have a "Fitment issue" with regards to the RR, but if one got brave and took apart one of the ECM's, would a RR "Guts Kit" work with one from an electrical standpoint? How about the LBZ/LMM? They're 2MB, IIRC, but if the RR was upgraded to support 2MB ECMs, would it work with a LBZ or LMM ECM?The LLY, E40 use a different flash chip than the LS1, LB7 etc, Craig might not have designed it to handle emulation of a burst flash device even though they are 1Mb.
The E38 & LBZ ECM's are even worse, burst flash but also 32 bit, plus running at 50MHz or so, not low 20MHz rates like the LB7.


Correct. Can you add something in the Advanced Options to allow S10Mods to flash a 1024k file into his 512k RR? Maybe an OverRide?I'll ask Paul to look at this thread, he will need to confirm why the restriction is in there.

Cheers,
Ross

[Blacky]

I built in a check to make sure the correct file was going into the correct RR device. We have to cater for everyone's skill level- if you know what I mean.

That said, I figured someone would want to bypass that check. So to bypass it, just hold down the Ctrl and Shift keys while clicking on the RR full flash icon.

But if you do that, then we are not responsible for the aftermath if/when the RR PCM fails to operate the target vehicle correctly.

Regards
Paul

[s10mods]

Thank you, I cant wait to try it out, I know the RR makes tuning so much faster, I am so glad that it works in my grand prix. I just finished tuning the trans parameters, it didnt taks much time at all to get it right where i like it.:grin:

[GMPX]

Yeah, we should finish off support for those V6's one day :music_whistling_1:

[s10mods]

Yeah, we should finish off support for those V6's one day :music_whistling_1:

That would be excellent. :rockon:

[Highlander]

Funny... honda people and Crome use a pretty darn long cable.

Ross.. I am missing something.. .v6 3.8s?

[s10mods]

GM 3800 support would be great. maybe some day it will be avail.

[N0DIH]

The RR works on it with TC2, but just not a big demand for 3800's.....

Shame, I would love to run my RR with EFILive, it datalogs great, no issues at all.


GM 3800 support would be great. maybe some day it will be avail.

[auspeed]

Are the RR Guts kits still for sale? Cant seem to find them on the moates website?

[joecar]

Are the RR Guts kits still for sale? Cant seem to find them on the moates website?Contact Moates, they may be able to point you to another source.

[GMPX]

I might be wrong but I think Moates no longer does any RR kits at all, the project is dead for good. If they tell you otherwise please let us know in this thread.

[joecar]

My customer here in LA tried to get a 411 RR from Moates, they told him it would take 3 months due to parts supply problem...

( let me verify this )

[kangsta]

My customer here in LA tried to get a 411 RR from Moates, they told him it would take 3 months due to parts supply problem...

( let me verify this )

Did you find out what happened with the RR from Moates?

[joecar]

Did you find out what happened with the RR from Moates?He obtained one from a third party... do you want me to get you details...?

[kangsta]

Yes please

[joecar]

ok, I'll probably talk to him on Monday (tomorrow).

[driver456]

I contacted Moates the other day in a e-mail,They said about 2 weeks for a 0411pcm Roadrunner