First GenIV LMG swap AFM data logs

[harascho]

First of all I have to say I am new to EFIlive and these are my first logs. It took me some time to get used to the pid selections and the correct dashboard.

As you all know from my AFM thread we all thought that the missing brake booster sensor message is the condition which inhibits V4 mode...

Hmmm, .... if my logs are correct I see two things.. one is AFMINHIB1- AFMA10 (Min time with all cylinders not met) easy thing, I parked the Thahoe a few minutes before I did a short test drive.. the V8 time was too short.

the other condition is AFMINHIB2-AFMB10 (Axle torque limiting) which I cannot explain any further. Is there anything wrong with my logs... or is this just a beginners first time trouble?

Here is my dash , PID selection and the log file.. maybe one of the experts can give me a hand.

Thanks a lot Harald

[GMPX]

The results do look a little odd, we have downloaded your log (thank you) and will double check the PID definitions today.

Cheers,
Ross

[GMPX]

Looks like I had the PID defined wrong, Paul has fixed it and now it all makes sense. There looking over the log there has been several reasons the AFM has not kicked in.

1 - ETC Tip-In Active
2 - Vehicle Speed too Low
3 - O2 Tests active
4 - DFCO active
5 - RPM not in range
6 - Trans shifting
7 - Throttle too high
8 - MAP too low

Now all of those are only on briefly throughout the log, so I think can be ignored as the source of the non functioning AFM.
It's the next lot that never go away.

1 - 4WD Low on
2 - 4WD State Invalid

Of course this related directly to the questions you have been asking about the 4WD inputs, I am still figuring out that for you.
But I am confident once we can get it to not think it is in 4WD Low then it should start to work.
The 4WDLow input (C1, pin2) should be switched to ground to enable it, is that what you are doing?

Cheers,
Ross

[harascho]

Thanks a lot for your help Ross

we've got the thing moving now.

This log was made with a 2wd tun file in the tranny, 'cause of my trouble with the correct 4wd tun file. ( See that E38 stuck in wd low thread..)

So it all seems to be related to that 4wdlo stuff. I switch C1, PIN 2 to low when in 4wdlo but it seems it has no influence. As soon as I have a 4wd tun in the T42, things are getting weird and I think the ECM sees a 4wdlo state all the time, even in 2hi.
So the first thing to solve would be the correct 4wdlo state.
Will we be able to get the 4wdlo message to the E38 in a conversion without the proper TCCM? Is the C1,2 the only way to tell the ECM that we are in 4wdlo or is the GMLAN involved?


Harald

[harascho]

Do I need new PID definitions to get the AFMINHIB1/2 to work correct?

[GMPX]

Do you want a 4WD tune in it or can your run 2WD?

Below is the updated file, extract in to -
\Program Files\EFILive\V7.5\Configuration

You don't need to relog anything, it was just a display issue in the scantool, the logged data is still valid.

Cheers,
Ross

[harascho]

Hi Ross,

I have the correct 4wd tune from the same Tahoe (1GNFK13037R238413) and I would like to run it. I then have a matching set ( E38, T42 and BCM) of calibrations of that Tahoe.
The ECM and TCM tunes were posted in that strange acting tranny thread
(http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=9809&page=4)

Do you think we can solve that 4wdlo issue? If I can do any checks, logs or something to help you pls let me know.

Harald

[harascho]

The 2wd tune in my T42 results in a not shifting tranny in 4wdlo, so I need to run a 4wd tune which results in a not shifting tranny 2/4hi...ha ha stuck in the mud.. I would say
Ross, you are my best chance to solve that....;-))

[GMPX]

Do you think we can solve that 4wdlo issue? If I can do any checks, logs or something to help you pls let me know.

Harald

Well, remember, we aren't GM!, I can't guarantee this will ever get solved, it tends to go beyond what 'normal' tuning problems might be. Conversions are always a bit of a nightmare, even worse with these E38's etc.
We will try to solve the situation, it will probably require us to add in more PID's to see what the ECM / TCM is thinking, there is every chance the 4WDLow switch can also be via a GMLAN message rather than the ECM direct input, again, I don't know the answer to that.

Also, the first time I uploaded that updated file something went wrong, it was too small, I've reposted it, you better download it again.

Cheers,
Ross

[VEGASROBBI]

Here is my first AFM log.

[harascho]

well, as we see the AFM stuff is related to the 4wd state this will be our key point for a working AFM in a conversion.

There might be three ways out of it:

1.) The EFIlive crew is able to find a way out with software help

2.) The swap crew is able to find a GMT900 application that has a manual transfer case with no TCCM

3.) Harald (me..) finds a way to use a '07 TCCM from option NP8 to work with a '97 NP241 . I will check the schematics, if we can get 2 hi , 4hi and 4lo to work. We won't use auto 4x 4 for sure.... ;-)

Lets see I will post an update later the day..

Harald

[harascho]

One more thought:

What about running a 2wd tune in the E38 ? Could that be a way to get AFM to work? Maybe worth a try? 2hi, 4hi will work, 4 lo will have trouble finding the correct VSS values which could be solved with a VSS in front of the TC..

[VEGASROBBI]

1.) The EFIlive crew is able to find a way out with software help

2.) The swap crew is able to find a GMT900 application that has a manual transfer case with no TCCM

3.) Harald (me..) finds a way to use a '07 TCCM from option NP8 to work with a '97 NP241 . I will check the schematics, if we can get 2 hi , 4hi and 4lo to work. We won't use auto 4x 4 for sure.... ;-)


Harold,

1) That would be great but might take some time.

2) Did you try the TIS VCI program?

3) Maybe, but NP8 is like Active 4WD and making it work with the old TC?

I changed my calibration to "undefined" 4WD, added the VSS on the Transmission output shaft and both 4 lo and high work fine now. My speedo works in hi and lo cause its on the TC.

I even toyed with the idea of running two VSS's and switching between them when engauging 4 lo; however, I just got back from a 40 mile rock crawl event where I was in 4 lo most of the time and had no codes or problems and averaged 20 MPG to boot.

With this setup it appears my AFM is not inhibited by the invalid 4 lo signal.

This is not the best solution, just one that allows me to have 4 lo, 4 hi, and AFM until a better software solution is available, Robbie.

[harascho]

Robbie, did you check if your AFM is working in 2hi with this setup? What do the AFMINHIB PID's say?

Harald

[VEGASROBBI]

I tried setting my tune too FWD, 4WD, Not Defined and RWD. In all settings the only pid diabling AFM is the "Axle Torque Limiting".

You say this pid is related to 4 lo? Even though I set my tune for 2WD? Maybe it's embedded in the OS?

I haven't downloaded the updated pids yet, will do tonight.

Seems like were making progress finally:)

[harascho]

You need to use that new file from Ross. With that extracted to the configurations folder the scan tool will show you the correct inhibiting factors. You don't have to make a new data log, just play you old log when you've got the update done. Then you will see that you are ( not you, the E38) in 4lo.... I could bet... ;-)

Harald

[harascho]

Thanks to all over here.
I finally made it. It's not a perfect solution (4wdlo doesn't work) but I have the AFM working in 2hi and 4hi.
After all I tried the '07 avalanche tun file (from 3GNEC12047G152683) which came with my E38.
the calibration and the log is in this post.
I will do some more logs after I changed my dash a little. It seems V4 kicks in only when I almost have no throttle applied. Give it a little throttle and the MAP is out of the V4 mode range.
I will do some better test drives tomorrow here in my area it's up and down all the time.
But man that feels good after all this work... I now have the sound of saving gas as vegasrobbie said.....

So that all shows we have to work on a solution for 4wd applications were the 4wdlo message stuff is solved and 2hi, 4hi and 4lo all work.
In the moment I've got no shifts below 3000rpm in 4wdlo and best of all, the AFM kicks in more than in 2hi......

best regards from Germany from a very proud guy..

Harald

[joecar]

Harald,

You have AFM, 4lo, 4hi, 2hi all working... Good job...:cheers: :cheers:

Edit: oh, I see 4lo isn't working properly... well, at least you are closer.
:)

[PSWired]

My theory for the 4LO issue is this:

The ECM depends on a message from the TCCM to determine if the vehicle is in 2WD or 4WD. Since the 4WD state invalid flag is set in the AFM disable PID, I'm guessing the ECM throws out the value from the 4LO ECM hardware input if it sees that 4LO is engaged before getting the message from the TCCM that 4WD is engaged.

Seems we need to find a way to get a message to the ECM (and TCM) that 4WD is engaged. I have pre-wired the harness to my CAN interface module with a 4WD status line, so theoretically if I can determine the message structure for the 4WD engaged message, I should be able to send it to the ECM and TCM from my module.

[harascho]

That sounds good. you could be right that a hardwire 4wdlo input confuses the ECM which is waiting for 4wd message on the CAN before 4wdlo is engaged.
I hope you interface will light up our dark AFM condition corner...

We all are on the right track. I will play with the '07 TCCM schematics, I guess it could be used also for a NP241 to shift 2h, 4hi and 4lo.... give me time until tomorrow..

Last but not least the work is done when all is working, that also includes a correct working 4lo....it's an SUV by its nature...

I will go on a longer testdrive tomorrow to get a feeling for the AFM kicking in and out. I am also curious if the 2wd tune has an influence on my fuel consumption. I read somewhere that the fuelling and tranny behaviour is different in 4wdlo mode to give a better control to the pedal... if that is true my driving was done in 2hi with a E38 thinking it's in 4lo.... I will get some numbers the next days.

So far the V4 mode has some vibrations but the exhaust note is still ok

Harald

[PSWired]

Yeah, I was wondering about the vibrations. We are missing the damped motor mounts that the AFM engines come with, so I'd imagine this could be a problem. Is it a specific frequency that is a problem or is it occurring across a range of RPMs?

[harascho]

I will do more research tomorrow, I will come up with some logs and my impressions

Harald

I still have the hydraulic motor mounts, but they are awkward to adapt to our generation of front frame design

[VEGASROBBI]

Good work Harold:) Is that Avalanche tune from A 2WD?

If I understand what Patrick is saying the 4WD tune is looking for bus data from the TCCM and the hardwire has no effect without it.

That might explain why my 4WD tune ignores any drivetrain type I set.

I hope to get a look at my log with the new pids tonight.

[VEGASROBBI]

Just checked my log with the updated pid's. The only disabling factors I see now are, still, the Axle Torque Limiting (which I ignore)?

And the "Min time with all cyls on not met".

Interestingly the "DOD/AFM Distance Activated" counts up with my odometer; and the "DOD/AFM Distance Deactivated stays at 0.

Could this be a pid issue?

The 4 lo pids seem to be OK.

[harascho]

Robbie, are you sure that you copied the new PID definitions to the 7.5/configuration folder ? What you've got is what I had before I changed to the updated PID definitions. Maybe you should download that GM_enhanched file in this threead again and copy the files to Programs/EFIlive/7.5/configurations

Harald

[harascho]

I did a longer test run this afternoon.
It seems the AFM kicks only in when I am almost off the throttle. I tiny little bit of throttle and it's back to V8 mode.
In these situations it's always AFMINHIB1-AFMA31 Manifold vaccum pressure too low which throws me out of V4.

Maybe someone has some ideas with the attached log.

Harald

[VEGASROBBI]

You are correct Harold, guess I didn't download the updated folder correctly.

Now my only disabling factors are 4WD Lo on and 4WD State invalid.

Does this mean I need a 2WD tune? Thanks.

[harascho]

As I said, welcome to the 4wdlo club, Robbie

Yes you need a 2wd tune to get the 2hi and AFM mode trouble solved. As you have a VSS in front of your TC you could have luck and your 4wdlo will work, at least from the behaviour of the tranny. I think you will run into the following: V4 mode will also kick in in 4wdlo and that is what we don't want.

It all comes down to a working 4wd tune combination in E38 and T42, I hope the EFIlive crew will find something to get that going without a TCCM.

I will check into the Idea with the '07 TCCM but a leaking water pipe in one of my houses walls got my complete attention yesterday.

By the way I will be in OCCA from April the 5th until the 19th and I will spend a few days in Vegas.. we could meet in person for some further disussions..

Harald

[PSWired]

Okay, here are my log results:

AFM Inhibit reasons:

Transmission gear incorrect
Transmission range incorrect

Those are exactly what I suspected- the 2009 ECM does not correctly read the state of the 2007 TCM operating system data. This causes a variety of problems such as the wrong desired idle speed, no reverse lights, cannot perform CKP relearn, etc.

The brake vacuum pressure too low PID sets occasionally. But the brake vacuum pressure sensor fault does not set. I wonder if I have a calibration that estimates the brake pressure from MAP value and brake usage instead of using hardware sensor data??

The 4LO disablers do not set at any time. I seem to remember there being a 4LO status PID mentioned earlier, if I can find this I will see if this indicates the correct 4LO status for my application.

Looks like I need to start by upgrading my TCM to the 2009 OS. Just need the .calz file for it and I should be in business!

[PSWired]

Looks like the AFM disable PID for 4LO active will not set, even when 4LO is actually active. I thought I had a 4WD calibration in my ECM? This testing was done with the vehicle stationary, and with screwed up transmission state values from the 07 TCM, so that could have something to do with it.

Looks like I really need to get the 09 OS on the TCM before I can proceed.

[VEGASROBBI]

Since my VSS is on the TOS I think AFM, 4 lo and high will work with a 2WD tune.

AFM enabling in 4 lo may not be a problem since it kicks out under any kind of load. If it is there may be a way to disable it.

I think the LH6 was offered only in 4WD's so I need to identify it's 2WD counterpart for the appropriate tune. Holden Crazy has lots of 5.3 tunes to choose from.

Harold if your in Vegas be sure to stop in, I'll send you my contact information.

If our two brains can't figure out the software issue we can discuss how to motivate the guys Down Under:)

[gmh308]

Yeah, I was wondering about the vibrations. We are missing the damped motor mounts that the AFM engines come with, so I'd imagine this could be a problem. Is it a specific frequency that is a problem or is it occurring across a range of RPMs?

Hey PSWired,

Noticed in your sig that you have an LMG 5.3L running E85. Do you use a hard sensor or virtual fuel sensing?

:cheers:

[PSWired]

It is a virtual sensor. I don't think any of the Gen IV platforms have a hardware fuel composition sensor.

[gmh308]

It is a virtual sensor. I don't think any of the Gen IV platforms have a hardware fuel composition sensor.

mmm...on reflection you are probably right on that one!

Do you run a gas tank pressure sensor and full evaporative emissions system?

And does it handle the various % of ethanol ok?

:cheers:

[GMPX]

It is a virtual sensor. I don't think any of the Gen IV platforms have a hardware fuel composition sensor.
Not when they cost $400 per sensor!

[gmh308]

Not when they cost $400 per sensor!

What? A sophisticated piece of diecast metal with a couple pipes in and out that can figure out what is flowing through it gas or x% ethanol....worth every cent....:hihi:

[harascho]

I took the opportunity to take my tahoe on a longer trip. I had to drive to the south of Germany. It was about 200mls, a forth of it through some small towns and country roads, the rest a longer stretch of our autobahn. I set the cruise to 70mls/h and watched the AFM working. It only kicked in when the road went downward (very little was enough to get V4 mode) .As soon as the road was flat I was back to V8 mode. Without the cruise it felt that the slightest movement of the throttle and I was back in V8 mode. I think there is room for some refinements so that the V4 mode is kept longer even with a little throttle applied.
From the exhaust noise and vibration side all was ok. With the V4 mode at higher revs there are small vibrations but nothing big. V4 mode at lower revs changes the things a bit, more vibartions and a strange exhaust tone.

The overall fuel consumption was 13,7mpg which is what I think very high for that very careful right foot.
what could be done to get better milage out of a e38 controlled LMG 5.3?

Is there a way to get a kind of lean cruise mode? Could I tweak the calibration to get more miles out of a gallon?

I've got my laptop and the EFI V2 with me... what logs could be interesting on the way back to get a close look what causes my engine to drink that much?

Harald

[VEGASROBBI]

There must be somthing wrong Harold. I just took a trip to Hoover Dam and back and averaged 28 MPG. My digital display reads over 30 MPG when at cruise with AFM enabled.

I can cruise on level or slightly rising roads and keep AFM engauged at 70 MPH.

I know my Truck is lighter than yours but IM getting double the mileage you are.

[gmh308]

There must be somthing wrong Harold. I just took a trip to Hoover Dam and back and averaged 28 MPG. My digital display reads over 30 MPG when at cruise with AFM enabled.

I can cruise on level or slightly rising roads and keep AFM engauged at 70 MPH.

I know my Truck is lighter than yours but IM getting double the mileage you are.

That's impressive! :) Running factory stock tunes? Excellent result.

[harascho]

Hi ,
after some first timer troubles I am into the game. I just returned from some test runs. In the past I noticed a strange TC clutch behaviour. . When applied I still could hear a constant change in rpm. No I have it in the first log. I recorded the TIS, TOS , and the TCCslippage. When the TC is applied there is still a 30 - 60rpm slippage like a sine wave. That's the sound I heard...

Then I went to the E38 default metric PID and added the long and short term fuel trims. Here is what I've recorded minutes ago. As I have no experience in interpreting the logged values I need some help..

Main problem in the moment is the bad fuel consumption. The 2007 5,3 4L60E combination could do better as we know from Patrick and Robbi

THX

Harald

[waynehartwig]

The only VSS I have is on the trans output shaft and mine shifts the same regardless of TC gear.

Ther'es a few things you can do in the lean cruise area to get it to stay in V4 mode longer.

Raise your TPS max% - I believe GM set it at 6%, raise it to 20%.
Raise your TPS HYST - I believe GM set it at .5%, raise it to 3%

Then you can change your enable/disable vacuum thresholds to suit.

I'm not getting 28 mpg, but I'm getting better than you are with my 6,000lb Jeep Wrangler. Conversion is still too new and I only have freeway data while pulling my camper trailer and I was getting around 14 mpg @ 75 mph. I would assume without that bigger brick back there it would be higher than 14...? My Edge controller says I'm getting around 22-26 mpg through town. I didn't have it with me on my trip to Moab last month to know how accurate it is...

[PSWired]

Where is this TPS hysteresis calibration value? I can only find the TPS upper cutoff value in my OS...

[waynehartwig]

Where is this TPS hysteresis calibration value? I can only find the TPS upper cutoff value in my OS...

It might only be a value the other guys use - I don't have EFILive. :doh2:

[VEGASROBBI]

Thanks for the TPS info waynehartwig. I have AFM staying active most of the time now.
You mention lean cruise which I have been trying to achive with mixed results. As other threads indicate the USA E-38 is not lean cruise friendly. My old EBL ECU went open loop under cruise and picking an AFR was simple, not so with my E38.
I had the pleasure to meet Harold recently and we discussed the E38's desire to run at stoich or richer.
I performed Swingtens Auto VE and too my surprise my stock VE Map was not far off. Most annoying though is IM running about 14:2-14:3 AFR in most cells closed loop. I've sucsessfully modified DFCO to stay in till about 1000 rpm which helped mpg. Most of this is trial and error at best but here is what I have tried to lean out cruise:
Lowered MAF frequency-seemed to make a very small change, but the LTFT increased and the end result was nothing.
Changed the stoich setting to 15.3-result nothing.
Changed o2 switching point to as low as 200mv-nothing.
Added an EFIE(O2 signal modifier). The first one I tried was digital which switched from .1-.9v and the switch point was adjustable-had no effect. Tried a analog EFIE which piggyback's a few hundred mv to the O2 signal and I got some results, however the LTFT's again seemed to fight back.
As of today I lowered the MAF frequency and am running the EFIE and am able the keep most VE cells about 14:7 as read through my wideband. It's not a solution though, I believe the E38 is too rational. In a steady state cruise all seems fine at 14:7 +; although, when it switches between AFM and V8 mode there is a flat spot and sometimes it will throw a P0106 MAP performance code and go into some kind of limp mode and the O2's stop switching. Once it threw an AFR irrationally code. If I lower the piggyback voltage the codes stay away but the results are neglagible. I believe the E38 cross checks different inputs and knows where it should be and ignores what it feels isn't correct.
All this and my VE map averages 14:7, not worth it. I would expect in stock tune the VE would be closer to stoich, and 15-16:1 lean cruise is just not there.
PS waynehartwig you have out done me. One of my plasitic leaf springs cracked so I reinstalled the steel ones(an xtra 200lbs:(
Also I believe my Dashdaq readout was off regarding milage. After several thousand miles of fill ups, calculating gallons/miles, I am averaging 26.7 mpg. With the EFIE and the MAF Hz mod my hwy mpg is over 30, but driveabily suffers. We need an open loop lean cruise for the E-38(N0x aside), maybe add an EGR?
PSS Running open loop the world is wonderful, obtaining 15:1 + at cruise is easy. This is my next trial, although losing CL I think is too high of a price to pay, and there will be a lot of WB monitoring for saftey. I know there is a few more mpg to be had. I understand the lean cruise issue and why the real smart guys don't assist us with it which would make it simple. Im running and old truck mostly off road so I'll keep trying.

[waynehartwig]

F350 running gear, V8 swap, 1/4" thick steel plate panels, bumpers, roll cage, etc. add up!

P0106 is because the MAP min/max values are incorrect. Look at your tune and see if there are tables dedicated to V4 and V8 mode. Maybe when V8 mode kicks in, the MAP is skyrocketing causing the code. Maybe simply raising the max value will stop the code from showing up? I just know you don't want to disable the code. It's actually a good thing to have.

Understand what I'm saying? In case you need to know how V4 mode works.

When signaled, the ECM shoots one more shot of fuel in all of the cylinders, then disables the valves from moving, keeping that charge in there. Even though the valves no longer operate, the cylinders still fire. Then when the time limit in V4 mode is exhausted, the exhaust valve opens, pushing the spent charge out and then moves to V8 mode and all is normal.

So maybe it's just too close?

Lean cruise is doable, as I mine does it. I run around 14.8-15.1 while going down the freeway. I wish you could see my tune. It might help.

[VEGASROBBI]

Yes there is a dramatic increase in MAP kpa when AFM kicks in; certainly the OE ECM takes this into account when transitioning into LC.

What software are you using to calibrate? How are you maintaining 15:1 in CL? I would be interested to see your tune; perhaps some parameters are similar to EFI LIve.

[PSWired]

While on the subject of MAP codes, if anyone here manages to update their 2007 ECM with a 2008 or 2009 OS without bricking it, be aware you will need to replace your MAP sensor with the new part for 2008+

[waynehartwig]

Yes there is a dramatic increase in MAP kpa when AFM kicks in; certainly the OE ECM takes this into account when transitioning into LC.

What software are you using to calibrate? How are you maintaining 15:1 in CL? I would be interested to see your tune; perhaps some parameters are similar to EFI LIve.

I use HPTuners.

It doesn't maintain 15.1, it varies between 14.8 and 15.1 - according to my wideband that I run constantly. Maybe yours does as well if checked with a wideband? I need to fatten mine up, though, because while a lean cruise is ok most of the time, it's not ok when pulling a trailer. If I was to run it a bit fatter, I could control my engine/oil temps better. It's all because of the super small radiator I have to run in the Wrangler, then it's also blocked by a big winch to boot.