Ok, have fun...:cheers:
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Ok, have fun...:cheers:
Hey Joe, I'm too tired to spend much time on this, but I got a great BBL log file from Road Atlanta with all the PID's you recommended. Here's a snapshot of me heading down the straight for the nasty turn 10a. Let me know what you think from these readings. See anything I should be worried about?
Some observations:
- measured AFR is richer than commanded AFR,
- LTFT's are almost pegging on the high side,
- IAT shows 90°F... was outside air really that hot...?
What are all your mods...?
You may need to do:
- recalculate B4001 IFR,
- correct VE table (see AutoVE tutorial),
- correct MAF (using AutoMAF),
- set B3605 AFR, B3618 PE AFR and B3616 PE Enable.
How many miles do you have on your Z06...?
If you have many miles, then the O2 sensors may need replacement and the MAF may need cleaning (use MAF cleaner not Brake cleaner).
Post your log file and tune file.
Are you logging no more than 24 channels...?
Cool stuff Joe, I'm on my way out. Quick response is when you are running 20 minutes at 5-6k rpm in atlanta, yes it is that hot. This is why I kept bugging you guys for how to log oil temps too. I ran 270-280 oil temp most of the time. Was in 290's two weeks ago, but went with 15w50 Mobile1 Synthetic this time and took the straight in 5'th gear. That will keep me in 270's thru tomorrow. I'll be getting an oil cooler after this event. I have never ever been able to see the IAT, so I don't even know that 90f is high. Nor do I know what will happen to IAT when I put a oil cooler on?
Mods
Fast92 - LS2 TB, Vararam intake
LG Pro Street headers, xpipe no cats
Of note to me is all the talk about the Vararam causing heatsoak. Perhaps the 90f IAT is related to the Vararam in some way, I don't know, but something to dig into.
My monster log file attatched. Please remember its not street driving and its not a dyno run. Its real road racing in 90 degree heat at one of the nastiest tracks in the world. And all I care about is tuning my car to better stand up under these circumstances. That said, your input is greatly appreciated.
Yes, I am alluding to heat soak of the IAT and/or intake plumbing...
Hi Joe, lets start with this as I know what the MAF is and will check both it and my new TB for dirt/oil/anything ugly.Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
From some quick searches, having 90degree IAT on a 88degree day, with oil temps in the 270-280 degree range, can't be considered heat soak. Air temp pretty much same as the outside air while the engine compartment is cooking seems to me to say that the Vararam CAI is working very well.
Please explain why this looks like something alarming to you.
Oh, I didn't realize your outside air temp was 88F... I was assuming something like 70F... so that is definitely not heat soak.
Good log, very interesting... 43+ minutes... :cheers:
Log shows:
- LTFT's ranging from +12% to +25% (pegging)... indicates MAF may be reading low,
- WOT: actual AFR is richer than commanded AFR by at least 1 AFR,
- WOT: actual AFR is going as low as 11.0,
- CL: actual AFR at stoichiometric equal to commanded AFR... indicates wideband is functioning,
- closed throttle: actual AFR spiking lean (is DFCO enabled...?),
- fairly consistent knock at WOT,
- injector duty cycle hitting 100%;
- there are a few places at WOT 6000+ RPM where MAF is well under 300 g/s;
I'm not sure, but I think maybe the MAF is dirty (only clean with MAF cleaner)... check the air cleaner filter also;
Maybe do this (in this order):
- recalculate B4001 IFR (even if to just sanity check it),
- redo the VE table (AutoVE, in OLSD) if you haven't already (get a log in OLSD anyway),
- correct MAF (using AutoMAF, in OLMAF with B0120 zeroed), get MAF ben to 1.00, get some logs;
Set high load areas in B3605 OL AFR and B3618 PE AFR to something like 12.6.
Once you get the actual AFR matching the commanded AFR, then your injector duty cycle will probably go down a bit.
Questions/Comments:
- you're NA so AFR 11.0 is a bit too rich;
- have you considered running a few laps in OLSD...?
- I don't believe the oil cooler will affect your IAT.
- why is knock being indicated...?
- check if motor ingesting oil thru PCV...?
- does engine top have carbon deposits (have you ever had top engine cleaner)...?
- how many miles on engine...?
- sawtooth pattern on KR indicates it may be real knock (especially during WOT pull);
- from frame 10006 ECT starts to show higher trend... why...?
Create some maps like the one attached to see if you can correlate KR to something.
My $0.02... :)
Thank you so much for spending the time on my log file Joe, I really appreciate it. Keep in mind I really don't know how to use your software just yet. So its going to take a while for me to even understand everything you are talking about. I'll try to answer your questions below. I cracked a rotor on the last lap of the day, so I wont be driving it till the weekend anyway. I'll get the MAF and TB checked out and new rotors by end of weekend. I'll muddle through the AutoVE and as much as I can by end of weekend. Its a good thing my desktop works because I cant even uninstall, delete registry key, reinstall and get the scan tool to read logs anymore on my notebook. I'm not going to obsess over that now that I have real stuff to learn about though. I'm sure that was a uncommon log, just imagine how that rotor cracked. You saw the speed and rpms in the straights, after that was full out brake, then back to full out throttle. Its a blast. Total Nirvana:rockon:
Thanks again, Ken . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
Your injector duty cycle will go down as you get your tables tuned.
I'm not comfortable with knock... it's damaging effects are cumulative.
there are various conditions which promote knock:
- elevated combustion chamber temp.,
- reduction in effective octane (oil ingestion would do that),
- timing that is too advanced,
- heat sources in the combustion chamber (like carbon),
- compression ratio too high (carbon layer may do that).
granted, some engines seem to always show some knock, but engine should never be allowed to go lean under load, and timing may have to be removed as air charge temp. goes up.
Maybe it's just as well your actual AFR is in the 11's.
The scantool manual has some good info, see the section regarding maps.
I was comparing your log to some of my logs...
My 2001 WS6 with stock intake manifold (LS6 part no.), stock exhaust/cats: WOT, 5800 rpm, MAP 94 kPa, my MAF read 276 g/s...
You've got LS6 cam, FAST 92 intake, long tube headers and test pipe: WOT, 6500 rpm, MAP 97 kPa, your MAF reads ~260-270 g/s...
Maybe your MAF is ok, but it may be good to check it.
Your obviously a drag racer. Sure is much easier to read just 4 shifts a quarter mile at a time! That's fun too. different thrill, but a thrill none the less :cucumber:Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
I made my first map attempt. Thought interesting that the worst knock doesn't come at top SPEEDs. I went back thru the graphical log and to the best of my understanding, it happens most at the end of the straights, when I let off the gas partially just before the braking zones. ( I know, your supposed to gas all the way to brake, but sometimes your nuts come up into your throat and you need a second to get ready ) That is also the time when that ring flutter happens, high rpm but low load. Perhaps the little oil in the chamber messes up the mixture. Can the car really react that fast to stuff, I mean split second monitored I suppose by the O2's on way out, tell car to knock retard?Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
That's quite a bit of KR.
You might want to lower the {B6203} (30%) and raise {B6207} (50%)
If you still get it subtract logged KR.
Thanks for the input, all is appreciated. I didn't even know those existed as I'm very new to this. Having looked at what you suggest though, it kind of seems like treating the symptom and not really fixing the problem. If you have read JoeCar's posts above, there are most likely some mechanical problems causing my problems, plus base tuning most likely needed after resolving those problems. Again, I totally don't know what I'm doing yet so this is just my gut thought. Hopefully Joe will chime in.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.prick
I'll be cleaning my MAF, TB, Vararam Filter, checking for leaks, Intake torque by end of weekend and try to do the AutoVe. The findings from all this should lend some very good facts.
I know that stock 2001 F-cars knock quite a bit...
I don't know if 2001 Z06's do the same...
Some year/models (1998 F-car if I remember) had 4° KR consistently (caused by bad knock sensors and/or subharness)...
Some year/models do not knock at all... or hardly ever.
There are reasons for knock being detected... the difficult part is finding the exact actual reason(s)...
it can be a real detonation and/or pre-igniton (some of the causes were mentioned above)...
it can be false knock (piston or valvetrain noise, LT header banging into chassis, broken/loose flywheel, broken/loose motor mounts...)...
it may even be due to bad knock sensors...
the PCM sees signal(s) from the knock sensor(s), filters it, and deems what's left to be knock, and ramps KR in/out based on the "volume" and "duration" of the filtered knock signal...
Real knock is damaging... the mixture instantly explodes (instead of burning in an outward spreading ripple like manner), causing cylinder pressure to spike very high very sharply... this is what causes failures in head gaskets, pistons, crank and rod bearings... every little bit of real knock is contributing to damage (altho small amounts of knock thru-out the life of the engine may not necessarily amount to a failure)... a larger knock sustained for some amount of time (e.g. medium to severe knock lasting say 5 to 10 seconds during say a lean condition) can cause immediate catastrophic failure (melted/cracked piston, broken ringland, failed bearing... or worse).
Sometimes we can do something about it, but sometimes we can't.
Hey Joe and Blacky,
I had the car up in the air for a while doing a bunch of mods. I put it back in service today and took my first stab at the AutoVE tutorial.
Oh, during the mod week, I took my intake stuff apart and cleaned the MAF with a can of MAF Cleaner, verified the Vararam filter was clean, and the Throttle body was also clean. My FAST Intake manifold was loose again. I've torqued it down and will be watching it like a hawk. It was surely loose during my last track day where my logs you guys looked at were from.
Back to the AutoVE tutorial. Something doesn't look right, see pics. for some reason the Ben is lined through, but data tab showed every pid under the sun. When I hit the avg butten, every cell goes to zero. When I copy the map cells with values over to the main ve table, it looks all jacked up, especially in ranges where I had lots of cell counts logged.
I'm ready to focus on my tune for a while and it seems that the car runs fine even with this wierd tune flashed into it, so I could drive it to work and get some 30 minute logs.
I also don't really know how to tell if I triggered the MAF failure that needs to happen. I left my MAF plugged in as instructed. Is there a quick way to tell if the MAF tripped errors?
That PID is not selected or is invalid for some reason. Find it on the F8 tab page and right click on it ans select More info to find out what the problem is.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhiteside
That's because the average of a PID that is not being logged (see above) is 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhiteside
You should not copy/past the cell count values. You should only copy/paste the average (or min/max) values. Which will be in the range 0..2 (for BEN factor PIDs).Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhiteside
DTC P0102 will be set. You also have to change that DTC to not turn on the MIL otherwise you're MIL will be on all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhiteside
Regards
Paul
I've got the p0101-p0103 set to no mil as instructed.
I can't select ben-lc11 because it relies upon ext.ad1. I'm using serial not analog so I can select ben1 that relies on ext.woafr1, but I can't pick that inside the map for some reason.
Is CALC.BEN1 selected?
That is the serial WBO2 BEN PID.
It needs EXT.WO2AFR1 and GM.AFR to be selected to be valid.
I can get BEN Factor Ban 1, Serial wideband, LS1 Style, but all of the BEN Numerator PID require and ext analog connection??????
This one is the CALC.BEN1, but it still isn't a numerator PID??
Shall I use the BEN Factor Ban 1 in my map to replace the Ben-LC11 numerator and run it all over again?
Yes, for serial WBO2Quote:
Originally Posted by kwhiteside
Yes, replace BEN-LC11 with BEN1 in your map and save with new filename.
Pay attention if map is displaying cell counts, min values, max values, or average values (the last one is the one you want).
Post new screenshots and log/tune files.
Mark the intake manifold bolts with a paint stick to later see if they have rotated.
Good idea on the bolts, I'll do that.
Question for you. I'm going to get a good log after work tonight, but I noticed at the end of the tutorial we are expecting my LongFuelTrims to go down to -4 to 0 range. Being that mine from the track day were 10 to 25 all day long (maxed out) Is it really expected to see this kind of a reading?
Ok, pretty much thru the AUTOVE Tutorial. I'll post I'll my stuff up. A little unnerving how much it pinged when I got on it a couple times. I've pasted my averages over and multiplied to VE table, then I went ahead and flashed that up to the PCM. Thats where I stand now. I haven't taken it out again after that yet. I could do another run tonight, and I plan on driiving to work tomorrow. Looking forward to the next steps.
The two pics show the VE table before I pasted over and after pasting over with the average cells.
I looked at the log file and the few times I got on it (frames 4190, 6050, 6520) my afr is about a point richer than commanded. Maybe what we just did with the Autotun will help rectify that? Please explain to me as I'm kind of just following instructions without a good understanding of what we are doing. I see that the VE numbers have drastically been lowered after the paste, up to about 5000 rpm. (City driving, don't want to go to jail tonight!)
Oh, I noticed my long term fuel trims were right at zero the whole time. I totally don't understand how it changed so much. Please explain to me.
Where from here? More tweaking with this tutorial, or on to the next one?
Joe,
I skipped the B4001 Injector Flow Rate table and am backtracking. Can you help me figure out what injectors I have.
2001 Z06
They piece that clips onto them has a purple top and has "PED 42" written on them. I have reason to believe they may not be stock, but I really don't know.
I've hooked up a fuel pressure gauge and run at 68 pounds most of the time. I know stock is 58 pounds, so it appears my fuel pump has been upgraded.
If they are 42pounds injectors PED 42, how do I know what the Injector Rated Fuel Pressure should be. The spreadsheet has 43.5 in there.
I reread the tutorial last night and realized I didn't follow the last part right. I have now loaded the original tune, and alternate of SDAutoVe_000, then overlaid the VE table with the new values, Saved Original_Tun_0000 and flashed it up. Drove to work with BBL logging on and found my Long fuel trims -2 to -5 and my AFR staying right on commanded AFR. I was not able to get on it at all, it was a total cruise, but at least under those circumstances, AFR and commanded are in line. Also of note is that since I started messing with the AutoTune, I have not had the rpm dive bomb problem I posted about. Hope it stays that way as I progress thru the tune.
I will be able to make some tweaks during lunch and get on it a bit on the way home with BBL running. Hopefully you guys will come back from holiday or whatever happened yesterday and read this.
On the injectors, mine are gray and say bosch on the side.
I've researched like crazy about Injectors and have some understanding now.
Stock Z06 Injectors are rated at 28lb for 58psi 4bar. The spreadsheet defaults to 43.5psi 3bar because that is how most injectors are rated when sold.
So if I input a flow rate of 28 at a rated rate of 58, but then change my actual pressure to 68 which it is, I start seeing problems. This is assuming my injectors are still stock. ( I now know there should be a part number on the side of them, I'll get that when I get my glasses to read ) So I'm racing around and my commanded AFR is based on a 58psi table when actually I'm pushing out 68psi and more fuel. This explains why I'm running richer than commanded. Now if my injectors are upgraded bigger ones, that condition would be even worse to the rich side. The pcm is sending voltage to the injectors like they are small 28lb injectors at 58psi, but if they are big 40lb injectors being hit with 68psi, they will be releasing too much fuel.
How's that, do I pass Injector 101?
What injectors are you using?
You will need to change all the offset tables as well as {B4001}.
Do a search or start another thread for this info.
Yes, that would be why you're richer... recalculate for 68 psi (you measured this at the rail...?).
The stock Z06 injectors would be 28.8 lb/hr at 58 psi... or is it 28.0 lb/hr...?
I think the other injector tables may be ok at 68 psi, but I'm not so sure...
Do you know if they are the stock injectors or not...?
From your description, they don't appear to be...
Post some pics of them.
I have verified the injectors are stock 12561462 28lb injectors. The high fuel pressure (68psi) is the variable left to question or make adjustments for.Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar