NEED HELP WITH 98 Camaro AUTO VE TUNING

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Originally Posted by TAQuickness

it's really not that difficult. the resolution is different between the two tables. Assuming you are starting from stock and apply the BEN corrections to both tables, you will be very close to spot on with the Main VE table when you are ready to re-enable the MAF. That is why the AutoVE tutorial is written the way it is.

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Well, I understand, but....even if you start with the original VE tables...This is close but, still not correct....

Look at it like this....When you are in SD mode, you are not using the MAIN VE so to continually update the main VE with the BEN CALC values...don't really mean anything.

The BEN CALC modifier you paste over the Backup VE is not generated from the values in the main VE as it is disabled.....so, weather you start with the original VE or any old numbers.....it's apples and oranges.....they are not connected.

The BEN CALC factor is the difference between the BACKUP VE table and what the wideband sees as correct.(for the 97/98's) To use the same BEN CALC factor on the main VE over and over when the pcm ignores the MAIN VE in SD MODE it's kinda silly....you're not really changing anything....

In this case the Backup VE is updated with each flash and you get closer and closer each time you make and "auto VE" run. While the MAIN VE keeps getting modified by the ben calc but...the main VE is never used in SD mode....

I know it sorta looks like it's working while you're doing it....and it almost makes sense.....but I think it's wrong.

This is why I tried to "stretch" the Backup table into the main when I was done....This is REAL data....the big DRAG is that it's real but kinda worthless cause the resolution is gone....Back to square 1.....At this point you might as well just GUESS at the numbers.

I've played with the tables and after alot of "photoshop" type stuff on the 2 VE tables....I've finally crafted something that yields great results....

This guy should pay me $1,500 bucks for this tune for the time I have into it!

I hate playing games where you have to make up the rules as you go.:bash:

Anyone out there see it how I see it???:bash:

Chuck CoW

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Originally Posted by Chuck CoW

Well, I understand, but....even if you start with the original VE tables...This is close but, still not correct....

Look at it like this....When you are in SD mode, you are not using the MAIN VE so to continually update the main VE with the BEN CALC values...don't really mean anything.

The BEN CALC modifier you paste over the Backup VE is not generated from the values in the main VE as it is disabled.....so, weather you start with the original VE or any old numbers.....it's apples and oranges.....they are not connected.

The BEN CALC factor is the difference between the BACKUP VE table and what the wideband sees as correct.(for the 97/98's) To use the same BEN CALC factor on the main VE over and over when the pcm ignores the MAIN VE in SD MODE it's kinda silly....you're not really changing anything....

In this case the Backup VE is updated with each flash and you get closer and closer each time you make and "auto VE" run. While the MAIN VE keeps getting modified by the ben calc but...the main VE is never used in SD mode....

I know it sorta looks like it's working while you're doing it....and it almost makes sense.....but I think it's wrong.

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So lets agree to disagree on this one ;)

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Originally Posted by Chuck CoW

This is why I tried to "stretch" the Backup table into the main when I was done....This is REAL data....the big DRAG is that it's real but kinda worthless cause the resolution is gone....Back to square 1.....At this point you might as well just GUESS at the numbers.

I've played with the tables and after alot of "photoshop" type stuff on the 2 VE tables....I've finally crafted something that yields great results....

This guy should pay me $1,500 bucks for this tune for the time I have into it!

I hate playing games where you have to make up the rules as you go.:bash:

Anyone out there see it how I see it???:bash:

Chuck CoW

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Believe it or not, I do/did. However, if you have the opportunity, I'd like to see the results of a back to back comparison of your way vs the tutorial - comparing the difference in the tune, SOTP, and/or Dyno.

Winning method will find it's way into the tutorial and receive a "muahaha" smiley.

I still don't see your problem --- if you set up two BEN maps, one with the units of the BackupVE table, one with units of the MainVE table, there should not be any problem with the paste&multiply ... !?

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Originally Posted by Garry

I still don't see your problem --- if you set up two BEN maps, one with the units of the BackupVE table, one with units of the MainVE table, there should not be any problem with the paste&multiply ... !?

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Ok, I was sort of confused at first....Take it from the begining with the basics of "auto VE on a 98"

Set up speed density tune....(knowing that the main VE is disabled and the backup is to be used)

log a run with the BEN CALC factor....

The BEN CALC FACTOR is ONLY based on the values the pcm is presently using (BACKUP VE) and your LM1

SO, when you copy/paste the BEN CALC over the BACKUP VE you have the BACKUP VE (which is the table that is fueling the motor durring this procedure) being modified by what we know to be the corect amount based on the wideband.....

When you take the other map (ben calc with matching lables for the main VE) WHAT IS IT THAT THESE NUMBERS REPRESENT????

You are likely gonna paste the ben calc table from the scanner and past it over the main VE right? BUT, think about it....If the motor is not fueling from the main VE, but rather the backup....then (although it FEELS right) the numbers in the main ve are wrong.... REMEMBER WHAT WE ARE DOING AND WHY.....The ben calc is based on the difference between what is commanded in the backup VE (assuming SD) and the actual results of the wideband....(ie. these values ONLY represent the error of the backup ve....SO OF WHAT VALUE IS IT TO PASTE the BACKUP VE OVER THE MAIN VE if the Main VE is turned off and not functioning....???

Follow me here....This is turning into some sort of paradoxial time wharp episode of the twilight zone where you stand between two mirrors and try to count how many copies of yourself you see in the 2 mirrors...:nixweiss:

EVERYTHING FEELS RIGHT...or is it????

I'm not looking to pick a fight or challenge anyone here....but, we're doing all this work based on the backup VE with limited resolution and the motor is only gonna see all this hard work if the MAF happens to fail....right?

I'm trying to get the MAIN VE to within 0-3%.....but.....doing it like this is likely to produce 2 problems.....error in excess of 3% and big fluctuations...or at least unnecessary ones.....

To sum it up...When AUTO VE TUNING in SD MODE...the MAIN VE IS DEAD.

ANY OPERATION done using the BACKUP VE ben calc numbers (regradless of weather you're scanning BEN CALC in two different tables or not) is apples and oranges....they LOOK related..but, really have nothing to do with each other....Just cause you're scanning a BAN CALC table that LOOKS like the MAIN VE does not mean the numbers are valid...

Here's the deal....While you can do this to come CLOSE....I'm aspiring to get my MAIN VE between 0-3% and I just don't see how it is possible (although it might "feel or look good" to do it this way)

HEY ROSS! What do you think about a custom o/s for 98 that does not reference the backup VE in SD mode???? Should be easy right? Just like restoring dual spark maps! right??? :master:

Stay Tuned,
Chuck CoW

I hear you Chuck - I'm a big fan of splitting hairs myself. But until a method exists to tune off the Main VE, it's only going to be "best-guess".

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Originally Posted by TAQuickness

I hear you Chuck - I'm a big fan of splitting hairs myself. But until a method exists to tune off the Main VE, it's only going to be "best-guess".

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Well, like I said...it's a good thing I'm good with photoshop too!

I had to hand blend things..and I found myself editing areas of the MAIN VE after I turned on the maf....

When I finished it was perfect....but.....tons of time:mad:

Thanks for your input boys!
Chuck CoW

When I said "fill" on the first page, I meant you select the 20, 25, and 30kPa columns and then click on the blue fill arrows that point left and right in the toolbar. That's how you'd do the 25kPa coumn. Then to do the 35kPa column, you'd select the 30, 35, and 40. Then, going back and hand smoothing isn't too big of an issue. The problem I have with running the dual maps is, the car is using the backup map. So, how do you know the changes you're making to the main VE are right? Oh well, sounds like your done. Good to hear you finally got it...

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Originally Posted by SSpdDmon

When I said "fill" on the first page, I meant you select the 20, 25, and 30kPa columns and then click on the blue fill arrows that point left and right in the toolbar. That's how you'd do the 25kPa coumn. Then to do the 35kPa column, you'd select the 30, 35, and 40. Then, going back and hand smoothing isn't too big of an issue. The problem I have with running the dual maps is, the car is using the backup map. So, how do you know the changes you're making to the main VE are right? Oh well, sounds like your done. Good to hear you finally got it...

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YES! to quote you....

"The problem I have with running the dual maps is, the car is using the backup map. So, how do you know the changes you're making to the main VE are right?"

This has been my issue right along! How do you know its right..even if you're using the 2 scanner maps....it still isn't right......

Almost feels like we're using LS1 edit again! CLOSE IS GOOD ENOUGH!

Chuck CoW

Been there done this deal. This whole deal drove me to a newer OS. I feel your pain Chuck. For the time you put into that tune you might have as well just upgraded the PCM-as big of an ordeal as that was-it probably is right along the amount of effort you spent on massaging that turd.;)

This is why my car is in OLSD. I have a 50+ hour a week job. I dont have time to tune 98 cars like my own. It runs better in OLSD than with the maf so it stays like this. It makes the same power with SD and with the MAF the graphs over lay each other. So I just leave it in OLSD.