Ok, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by voda1
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Ok, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by voda1
Looking at the calibrations in the HPT software, I see where the boundary angle of 520 degrees came from (not shown in EfiLive), and in the other forums its said that the boundary 520 - (Normal ECT + Normal RPM) = EOI. For example 520 - (110 + 4.56) = 405.44 BTDC Ignition EOI or 45.44 BTDC for EVC/IVO events, which is where we think it should just be before IVO.
But what happens when the engine is cold, for example 520 - (245 + 4.56) = 270.44 BTDC Ignition EOI or 89.56 ATDC with the inlet valve wide open, which cannot be correct for vaporisation??
If the boundary is 520 degrees BTDC, advancing the SOI and consequentially the EOI, surely the calculation should be 520 + (245 + 4.56) = 769.56 BTDC or 49.56 BTDC of the previous cycle ignition, and so for a hot engine, 520 + (110 + 4.56) = 634.56 BTDC or 85.44 ATDC of the previous cycle ignition, but 270 degrees before TDC EVO/IVO events?
Also, in the HP software the values for Normal ECT and Normal RPM are 50% less than EFI live calibration??
EfiLive show 220 degrees advance at +68 C, HPT shows 110
EfiLive shows 9.13degrees advance at 1150RPM and 185.8 at 4090RPM, HPT shows 4.56 and 92.9
Its not just a case for doubling the boundary value to arrive at EfiLive value (its not visible to check) as the end calculation is not the same?
Why would EfiLive show different values for the same calibration in HPT? All the other calibration data I've compared is the same?
Ive added a diagram I found to more easily identify with SOI EOI events
Cracked it, well almost, the injector cycle starts 200° BTDC Ignition stroke of the previous cycle, the earliest SOI for the next cycle and finishes 160° ATDC induction stroke of the current cycle, the latest EOI for the current cycle, just before IVC.
But there is still the discrepancy in the calibrations between HPT and EfiLive
Using HPT calibration data at 1150RPM
Calculating advance from 520° ATDC, engine COLD, 520 - (245 + 4.56) = 270.44 ATDC or 89.66 BTDC before EVC/IVO events :)
Calculating advance from 520° ATDC, engine HOT, 520 - (110 + 4.56) = 405.44 ATDC or 45.66 ATDC after EVC/IVO events ?? Injecting IVO explains the fuel smell for positive overlap cams and the success advancing EOI for the EVC?.
Using EfiLive calibration data at 1150RPM
Calculating advance from 520° ATDC, engine COLD, 520 - (490 + 9.13) = 20.87 ATDC Ignition stroke or 339.13 BTDC well before EVC/IVO events ??
Calculating advance from 520° ATDC, engine HOT, 520 - (220 + 9.13) = 290.87 ATDC Ignition stroke or 69.13 BTDC just before EVC/IVO events :)?
More on the boundary angle of 520 degrees, courtesy of Chris HPT.
Boundary is the latest point in time that fuel can make it into the cylinder for the current injection period. It is measured in degrees AFTER TDC compression. It is also the earliest the injector can fire again after the completion of the last injection event. ie. the boundary defines the start/end of a complete injection cycle.
Normal End of Injection Target (EOIT) is the angle before the boundary (in degrees) that the normal pulse (the main pulse) should finish. The hardware calculates the start of injection time from the EOIT and the desired PW.
Makeup End of Injection Target (EOIT) is the angle before the boundary (in degrees) that the first makeup pulse should finish. Makeup pulses are extra pulses that can be injected to inject more fuel during an injection cycle rather than having to wait for the next cycle. There can be more than one makeup pulse but the makeup EOIT specifies the EOIT of the first makeup pulse.
The makeup PW minimum is a minimum PW for the makeup pulses, they cannot be shorter than this (if they are they don't happen).
So you have the boundary that defines the injection cycle, a normal EOIT that specifies the EOIT for the main pulse, and finally a makeup EOIT that specifies the EIOT for any makeup pulses that might be needed if a fuel increase is commanded during an injection cycle but after the main pulse has occurred.
Hope that helps.
Chris...
What is the boundary value for EfiLive and its calculation if it is handled differently HPT?
You are basing your calculations on the e38s?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelf VXR
where does the angle come from? The 0411 ecu uses a reference of time!
He using an LS1B/0411...
Gelf, draw some pictures.
In my last post I am referring to Gen 4, all the injector timing data is the same for LS2, LS3 and LS7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Highlander
The boundary angle is shown in HPT as 520° (its not shown in EfiLive)
HPT description "Injection Boundary: The latest possible crank angle that the injection pulse can finish for fuel to be delivered to the cylinder"
It does not state TDC, however Chris from HPT noted that "Boundary is the latest point in time that fuel can make it into the cylinder for the current injection period. It is measured in degrees AFTER TDC compression. It is also the earliest the injector can fire again after the completion of the last injection event. ie. the boundary defines the start/end of a complete injection cycle."
Then we have,
{B1205} Injector timing ECT
EfiLive description "This table will offset the actual opening of the injector referenced to engine coolant temperature."
HPT description "Normal EOI target adder vs. ECT: Adds to the normal end of injection target
Advances EOI earlier when cold to allow more time for vaporisation
{B1206} Injector timing RPM
EfiLive description "This table will offset the actual opening of the injector referenced to RPM."
HPT description "Normal EOI target adder vs. RPM: The target angle before the boundary that the normal injection pulse should finish"
Advances EOI earlier to compensate for less time per crank angel degree rotation to allow more time for vaporisation
For Gen 3, the LS1
The boundary angle is shown in HPT as 6.5 ATDC (its not shown in EfiLive)
HPT description "Injection Boundary: Fuel injection delivery boundary as a number of reference periods after TDC"
From Bluecat's post http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...iming&p=238797, he confirmed reference period or reference pulse as 90° crank angle
6.5 * 90° = 585° ATDC (65° later than gen 4, very close to IVC)
Then we have
{B3702} Injector Timing There is no RPM adjustment for the gen 3.
EfiLive description "This table will offset the actual opening of the injector referenced to the reference pulses and engine coolant temperature."
And here's one confusion I think, the table axis in EfiLive shows mS, does this mean Milliseconds?, its reference pulses as per the description. (If you check {B4003} or {B4004} the IPW table axis its shows Milliseconds not mS)
HPT description "Normal injection target vs. ECT. The end of injection target measured in reference periods after the injection boundary that the normal injection should finish"
And here's another confusion, for the gen 4, the target angle is before the boundary, advancing EOI. For gen 3 it states measured in reference periods after the injection boundary that the normal injection should finish. The target angle is after the boundary.
From Bluecat's post I've seen -784 + ((Boundary + Normal) * 90) = -784 + ((6.5 + 5.55) * 90) = 300.5 ATDC EOI, as it fits best with the simulated results.
I think if EOI is to be calculated from the calibration data it should be as follows, the boundary is defined 6.5 * 90 = 585 ATDC or 135 BTDC compression/ignition, the start and end of the injection cycle. Then as per the description "The end of injection target measured in reference periods after the injection boundary that the normal injection should finish"
So EOI is 5.55 * 90 = 499.5° after the boundary ST/END which is 135° BTDC. 499.5 - 135 = 364.5 ATDC or 4.5° ATDC as EVC & IVO, but is 64° later than Bluecat's findings?
What really interesting thou is if you substitute gen 3 start/end of injection cycle with gen 4 start/end of injection cycle value, 135 to 200
499.5 - 200 = 299.5
Its 1° difference
Some excel sheet screen shots for SOI and EOI for 2ms, 5ms, 10ms and 15ms IPW. High light green the inlet is open, high light red the exhaust valve is open, its stock LS2 cam events so there is no overlap.Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
What you can observe is that on a hot engine at low rpm, and low IPW, the injectors are opening and closing on an open inlet valve. In cold conditions and/or higher rpm, SOI and EOI happens while EVO, at very high RPM SOI is before EVO, EOI is while EVO
I've made a spread sheet for both gen 3 & 4 to show SOI and EOI vs RPM, ECT and IPW. It doesn't seem to want to upload, a couple of screen shots attached
edit, added gen 4 with efilive ECT and RPM data, now looks similar to gen 3
Because of the differences between the gen 4 calibrations between EfiLive and HPT, I'm going to jump to some conclusions.
I think HPT gen 4 calibration data for injector timing is suspect, here's why
The gen 3 calibrations are the same in both EfiLive and HPT, however the boundary isn't shown in efilive, but it seems logical that 585ATDC would be acceptable as per the description "Boundary is the latest point in time that fuel can make it into the cylinder for the current injection period. It is measured in degrees AFTER TDC compression. Which would be as the inlet valve closes.
Stock IVC ATDC compression for
LS1 = 581.5, later 580.5
LS2 = 582
LS3 = 583
LS6 = 582, later 583
LS7 = 588
All around 585° (the boundary could be modified to cams exact IVC, at 0.05")
If I ignore the 520° boundary in HPT gen 4 and use 585° as the boundary and use EfiLive gen 4 calibration data, the results are practically the same SOI and EOI as the gen 3, apart from EOI advances with RPM in the gen 4 as expected because gen 3 does not have provision for RPM advance.
When the engine is up to temperature, both tables show EOI 365° ATDC compression
Stock IV0 ATDC compression for
LS1 = 375, later 373.5
LS2 = 378
LS3 = 379
LS6 = 378, later 379
LS7 = 378
EOI is just before the IVO (the Normal advance vs ECT could be modified for new cams earlier IVO, EVC is irrelevant if EOI is before IVO with regard to overlap and fuel out the exhaust valve)
It reasonable to assume that GM would stick to similar values across all the platforms? Correction, although the LS1 boundary is 585°, it has been shown to start from 65BTDC which means the boundary is the same gen 4 at 520° ATDC
Tables attached for comparison
I'm slowly digesting this (I'm drawing myself sketches to relate to valve events).
Any more on this? I think I have the ECT table figured B1205 (I have to add to it for my larger cam) but my RPM table B1206 is populated with zero's and only goes to 4,096 rpm. Would I subtract from zero to shorten the IPW or just do that with IPW to ensure the injection is complete before the overlap period happens? Do they both need to be adjusted to ensure the SOI and EOI only happen on a closed intake valve after the compression stroke? I am dealing with 10* overlap in a LS2. I want to stop the fuel from going out the exhaust valve at idle and low rpm cruise.
Is it a stock E40 tune or tuners file? If it was me, I would start by copy and paste the stock values for B1205 and B1206. Leave B1206 as is, calculate the difference between IVO from the stock to your new cam profile, assuming the new cam opens earlier, subtract the difference value from B1205. EOI earlier as the IVO is earlier.
I think the B1206 only goes up to 4096rpm as above that SOI maybe around the start of injection boundary, when that point is reached, the EOI has to happen later when the inlet is still open.
Sorry, add the difference to B1205 like you said
Thanks for the reply. I have an E67 ECM. Does that make a difference with the technique. I have been tuning the truck my self so all the IPW, Injector timing and Dynamics are still stock. I have actually tuned about 60 cars from stock to 575rw N/A up to 850rw S/C Vettes but have never delved into the injector timing, injector tables or the Dynamics tables. I have been doing a lot of reading on these topics as of late. Since all of the cars in the past have all run really well I thought through all of the fuel and timing calibrating the rest was taking care of it's self. Boy was I wrong. I have a lot to learn and am doing my best to do so. Unfortunately tuning is solely a part time thing. I have often wondered about pump shot and injection timing but rarely get the time to mess with it. I didn't want to hurt what was working. But now learning all of this has lead me to the belief that if the injector timing is off then all of your fueling calibrations will be off also since you are essentially putting a band aid on the actual problem.
Back on topic. From my summation. I take all the original valve events from the stock cam, compare them to the values of the new cam in crank degrees and come up with the difference of where the new intake valve opens vs where the old intake valve opened. I am assuming that will be in degrees of crank rotation of do I do that off of a percentage. The measurement of cam events also has me a little confused. Am I using at .002", .006" or .050" to derive my math? That will lead me to adjusting B1205 and B1206 in actual degrees or a percentage added to the base numbers. I also have to do that for where the new exhaust valve closes vs. the stock exhaust valve to account for the overlap period. Once I have figured those out, I add the difference to B1205 to open the injector earlier in the crank cycle for the intake valve and subtract from B1206 for the new exhaust closing point to avoid the overlap period. That will account for the injector firing on the intake valve after it is closed on the compression stroke/power stroke to avoid fuel being sucked out of the exhaust valve during overlap. Is that right? I see where B1205 is calculated in degrees and I think B1206 is the same but I will have to go back and look at it. I hope that made sense. I am a soldier by trade, not an engineer. Thanks.
BTW, here are my cam specs at .050". LSL 227/235 .617/.621 110+4.
Also, what table represents injection boundary?
So IVC is the event that injector timing precedes...?
( yes, I'm learning a lot )
It appears that EFILive does not expose a table for injection boundary.
Hi PRAY,
For example I think I am correct in saying, stock IVO 18ATDC, new IVO 18BTDC, difference is 36 crank degrees, add 36 to all values in B1205. The values are crank degrees advance, before the boundary.
I've not looked that closely at an E67, my laptops under repair so i can't look now, it's strange B1206 is all zeros, I'm sure for all the different PCMs I looked after the Ls1, these two tables were all identical and populated?
Hi joe
IVC event is the boundary, 585 ATDC, confirmed for gen 3, 99% sure it's the same for the E40 gen 4, based on my previous tables posted above.
Gen 4 infector timing calculated before the boundary and gen 3 calculated after the boundary.
Edited to correct valve events IVO, not EVC, too much to drink last night :)
0.050" lift events
Thanks. As I look at the way a four cycle engine works it seems to me to avoid the fuel going out of the exhaust valve during overlap you have to wait to start injecting fuel till after the exhaust valve closes. Using this thought pattern you will have to figure out the new crank degrees for that event and adjust your IPW to match the new time that the exhaust valve is closed before the intake valve opens. That would also lead you to your new injector timing. But, with a cam with overlap, there is no time that the exhaust and intake valve are not open together during the exhaust stroke before the intake stroke starts. So now I am just confused. Mathematically, there is no way to not loose fuel out of the exhaust during the overlap period unless you start the injection timing once the intake valve starts to open. So, do we just adjust for the new intake valve opening period and live with the loss out the exhaust valve or wait a couple degrees and just start spraying fuel down an open intake valve? I though the whole point of this exercise was to clean up idle and part throttle by hitting the back of the intake valve after the exhaust valve closes for best atomization before the intake stroke happens. Kind of looks impossible now.
Here are the events that I came up with last night using the Wallace racing calculators. According to the stock LS2 cam card I am off a couple degrees for the stock cam but if you do the math that is the only way it works out. So I used the calculator for the stock cam and my new cam. I am not sure what is going on here.
Ls2 cam @ .050” 204/211 .525/.525 116-2 -24.5* Overlap
IVO 16* ATDC + 360* = 376*
IVC 40* ABDC + 540* = 580*
EVO 39.5*BBDC - 180* = 140.5*
EVC -8.5* BTDC - 360* = 351.5*
IVC-IVO = 580-376 = 204
EVC-EVO = 351.5-140.5 = 211
(IVO+IVC)/2 = 478 = (478-360 = 106) 118 ICL
(EVO+EVC)/2 = 246 = (360-246= 114) = 114 ECL
118+114 /2 = 116 LSA and the 118ICL makes it -2 retarded
My cam @ .050” 227/235 .617/.621 110+4 11* Overlap
IVO 7.5* BTDC - 360* = 352.5*
IVC 39.5* ABDC + 540* = 579.5*
EVO 51.5* BBDC - 180* = 128.5*
EVC 3.5* ATDC + 360* = 363.5*
IVC-IVO = 579.5-352.5 = 227
EVC-EVO = 363.5-128.5 = 235
(IVO+IVC)/2 = 466 = (466-360 = 106) 106 ICL
(EVO+EVC)/2 = 246 = (360-246= 114) = 114 ECL
106+114 /2 = 110 LSA and the 106ICL makes it +4 advanced
So 16*+7.5*=23.5* rounded up to 24* or 376*-352.5*= 24.5* rounded down to 24* that I have to add to B1205 to get my new IVO table. B1206 is populated with 0 in my stock tune. I will see if I can find out on the TBSS forum what others have populated in their stock tunes. On the other vehicle tunes I have B1206 is populated but with different data. LS1 being inverse scaled of LS2.
Something just hit me, if the injector timing stays stock then with a new cam with an earlier opening time and closing time (which mine does not have an earlier closing time, WTF) you are essentially spraying fuel on a closed intake valve. That fuel would get trapped in the runner and would be sent out of the exhaust valve when it opened again during the overlap period. That would result in unburnt fuel exiting the exhaust and causing false WB02 readings. Rich or lean I am not sure of. But that could lead to a lean condition in your cylinder on the intake stroke from late injection fueling that would be masked at the WB02 on the exhaust stroke due to the extra unburnt fuel. So you would essentially be running lean and not knowing it. That would lead to shorter IPW sequences making up for the perceived rich condition therefor expounding on your leanness. If the inverse is true that unburnt fuel makes the WB02 read lean then the IPW will increase creating more fuel being injected after the intake valve closes causing a even leaner reading. So, late injector timing is actually very dangerous? To me, best case scenario now is to find the happy medium where you are injecting fuel as early as possible as the intake valve is opening during overlap. Using a little of the exhaust stream to help fill the cylinder with as much fuel as possible with out leaving any left over to sit in the runner before the exhaust valve opens and dumps raw fuel during the overlap period. Am I making any sense?
I corrected my previous post, IVO not IVC.
EOI happens just before the inlet valve opens at normal operating temps, fuel is vaporised before IVO. When cold EOI is advanced earlier to allow more time for vapouristion. As RPM and IPW increases, SOI approaches the boundary, when it reaches the boundary, EOI has to happen later after IVO and during overlap.
It makes sense now. I had to pull up some diagrams of valve events in a 360* circle and study those to get it all straight in my head. I added 24* across the board to my B1205 table to account for the difference in IVO between the stock cam and my cam and imported the stock tables to B1206 from every other car that I have with an E40 or E67 ECM like you suggested. It seems that at idle the tables are 0 and from there they taper up to 185* at 4,094 rpm to compensate for crank or piston speed. Still haven't figured out why my B1206 table is populated with 0. The only part of the equation I am missing now is where the 490*-220* calculations are derived from in B1205. They don't match up to the at .050" cam degrees. My thought is that maybe it is calculated off of the .002" or .006" cam degrees. I still think the extra fumes at idle are from EOIT happening after the IVC point and that fuel sitting there waiting for overlap to occur somewhere near TCD. Once the piston begins to travel down word after TDC the vacuum from that begins to pull in the new fresh atomized charge. Thanks for the help. I won't be home for another month to test any of this but I will let you know how it turns out when I get it all done.
B1205 & 1206 advance EOI back from the boundary, the boundary is 585 degrees after top dead centre on the power stoke.
The calculation for stock
585-490=95 when cold, which is 95ATDC during the power stroke, an extra 270 degrees of duration required for cold vaporisation
585-220=365 when hot, which 5ATDC induction stroke, 13 degrees before IVO at 18ATDC
Thanks, that sheds a lot of light on it. So since I added 24* to the whole table to account for the new IVO point there will still be the same amount of vaporization time but it will be geared to my cam now. I guess next will be adjusting IPW to get it to stop the EOIT just as IVC happens so there isn't any wasted fuel in the runner. I also need to plan my B1205/6 adjustments off of the EVC event to find the happy medium of when the exhaust valve is open during overlap and where the piston stalls at TDC to not waste any fuel there either. I know IPW has minimum adjustment tables but its actual duration is calculated by data from the VVE and MAF table settings correct?
Now that I am looking closely at all of this. If the tables are defined by EOIT then shouldn't we be doing our calculations off of the IVC event? What controls SOIT? That seems more important to me in my particular situation. My IVC event is almost identical to the stock cam but the IVO event is quite different. I guess moving the EOIT forward will help this situation and extending IPW by adding more fuel will take care of the back end. Assuming you don't run into boundary. I am also assuming that boundary is where the injector will not extend past or open before no matter what.
The boundary coincides with IVC event, it's the last point at which fuel can enter the cylinder for the current cycle, and the earliest point for SOI on the next cycle. EFILive doesn't provide the calibration to adjust the boundary, it doesn't really matter as long as you know where it is, your IVC is 580ATDC, 5 degrees earlier than the PCM boundary value. If you adjusted to your cam, it would give you 5 more degrees before EOI would start retarding finishing later after IVO.
The PCM calculates the IPW for airflow from MAF or VE table, it calculates the number of crank degrees required for that IPW, and calculates SOI back from EOI, B1205 and B1206.
The complete SOI to EOI happens before IVO, as IPW and RPM increase, SOI eventually meets the boundary where IVC from the last cycle. EOI has to start extending past IVO still injecting at the beginning of induction into the air stream, at these high loads I imagine cylinder temps are high enough to maintain vaporisation but may not be mixed with the air as efficiently.
Another way to look at it, there are 720 from IVC to next IVC, at above 85% duty cycle, SOI to EOI takes over 612 crank degrees, there is a minimum off time for the injector in between. It's flat on all the time. The purpose to maintain less than 80~85% Duty cycle may well be to ensure EOI before IVO..?
I see where you going injecting after the EVC, IVO, but If you look at your inlet duration 227 minus the overlap 11 degrees, minus the minimum injector off time, you could be down to say 190, it could be OK at idle and low rpm, but how efficient is mixing and vaporisation of homogenous charge?
Injection happens on a closed inlet valve long enough before it opens to allow vaporisation and cooling of the IV. During overlap some vaporised fuel may be lost to the EV, but not raw fuel, if it still smells raw fuel I would experiment and try increase B1205 values to allow more time for vaporisation.
Thanks a lot for all of your time and explanations. They have been a huge help in understanding this whole process. After my last post I looked up more valve events images and found a great explanation that made perfect since to me. Now I understand where the 585* boundary comes from. http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...amshaft_power/ This helped me visualize it much better and understand what was happening and when. I have been making a cheat sheet with everything we have been talking about and researching. This is going to be a great help in future tuning and is fantastic information I should have already known. I guess what you don't know can hurt you. Now I just need to figure out Dynamics and I should be set. Thanks again for all the help.
Glad to share :)
I'm re-reading the above and wrapping my head around it...
some 720* diagrams may help.
Joe, click on the carcraft link in my last post. That is the graphic that explained it the best to me. It really helped me understand where my valve events are happening and why they are labeled the way they are.
It maybe easier to think of it like a 24hr clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
Cycle starts at midnight, IVO happens at mid day, inlet closes at 8pm, EOI needs to be around 10.30am, 9.5hrs before 8pm.
If your IVO earlier at 11am, you need to advance EOI earlier, 10.5 hrs earlier instead of 9.5hrs, before 8pm.
The boundary is at 8pm.
If it a gen 3, boundary is still 8pm, EOI is at 10.30am the following day, 14.5hrs later or 13.5hrs later if IVO happens at 11.00am instead of 12pm
UPDATE: Finally made it home and was able to advance the injector timing like we were discussing. I only rolled it forward 24* since that is how far the new intake valve is advanced from the stock cam. So far the smell of the fuel has gone down quite a bit. I had to take out a bunch of fuel at idle because it was pig rich but the rest of the VVE table remained basically the same. I figured the whole fule table would be rich down low but it was only below 1,000rpm. The seat of the pants feel down low is drastic. A bunch more power on tip in and normal driving. The big deal to me is that I gained 3mpg on average over the last four tanks of gas. One thing I haven't been able to do or change yet is the dynamics. There is now a very slight stumble at minimal throttle input. Like backing out of my drive way. It almost acts like I am not moving the throttle when I am to a certain point and then it takes off. There needs to be more effort put into the tune right there. The other thing I noticed is that during cold start up and OL my commanded fuel is static at 13.0 but the WB reads 15.0 now. Any deviations in fueling from 13.0 causes a bit of surging that goes away pretty quickly. These issues could be unrelated to advancing the injector timing but I will work on them and figure it out. Hope this helps anyone that was following along.
For early Gen3 the the EOI was 4.77 x 90 = 430 deg, 70 deg. difference than with the 5.55 figure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelf VXR
What OS is everyone using... maybe I will release my cax were ido have the injection boundary in efilive...
Attachment 16979
Gelf Send me your email via PM to email it to you.
I am running OS 12611938. I have an 07' TBSS running an E67 ECM. I don't have the table you do.
Because this is for a GEN 3.... you don´t need that parameter.
Gotcha.
PM sent, I'm using a gen 4 E40Quote:
Originally Posted by Highlander
E40 doesn't have this value....
12212156.Quote:
Originally Posted by Highlander