using 14.047 for desired AFR and not 14.63?

Ah sawed dat you goes ta wal mart. I has been thyre 1nc. I sees yall had a lil prproblem thear cuz ya saided "The Automated Checkout at Wal-Mart said "select method of payment" , I selected "IOU" , it refused to take it .". Guesses whats, I has an auto matic IOU thear sos whoes really needn skoul anyhows, sea ah tolds ya soo. Anys 1 shuold noes ya nead an autamated IOU,s at da wal Mart, cuz its so dang big thare caint be mo than 1 in the whole wide wold. Did ah telya I live in da mountains, an we doent have a skoul fo dat eathers. Ifen ya all needs helpen at da wal marts, ah wood (yah all can maken alcohol outa wood too,see I aint needen no skoulen) be glad ta help u, ifen u all maid it fo free.
98 tigershark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chevy366

http://www.holdencrazy.com/EFILive/ , L59 is Flex Fuel - B3101 , B3103 , B3601 , B3695 , B3701 , B4001 .
COS3 or COS5 is easier .
Doesn't EFI University teach this in their EFILive courses ?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 98 tigershark

Ah sawed dat you goes ta wal mart. I has been thyre 1nc. I sees yall had a lil prproblem thear cuz ya saided "The Automated Checkout at Wal-Mart said "select method of payment" , I selected "IOU" , it refused to take it .". Guesses whats, I has an auto matic IOU thear sos whoes really needn skoul anyhows, sea ah tolds ya soo. Anys 1 shuold noes ya nead an autamated IOU,s at da wal Mart, cuz its so dang big thare caint be mo than 1 in the whole wide wold. Did ah telya I live in da mountains, an we doent have a skoul fo dat eathers. Ifen ya all needs helpen at da wal marts, ah wood (yah all can maken alcohol outa wood too,see I aint needen no skoulen) be glad ta help u, ifen u all maid it fo free.
98 tigershark

---

ROFL! Saaayyyy whaaaatt y'aaallll!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chevy366

L59 is Flex Fuel - B3101 , B3103 , B3601 , B3695 , B3701 , B4001 .
COS3 or COS5 is easier .
Doesn't EFI University teach this in their EFILive courses ?

---

Easier and cheaper than buying the $400+ sensor but
aren't they switchable, either or?
not true FF IMO.
How does the PCM know to change commanded EQ1 for % of ethanol?
L59 uses 1mb or 516kb PCM pick your poison. :)

With what I have learned in this post has really opened my eyes. I am sure we can figure out a way to know. How much is the sensor GM uses and can a gauge be made or does one exist already? It is one thing to change your tune, but you really still do not know for sure what is in your tank. Reflashing the PCM every time you fuel up isn't to practical either.
AN example is I bought gasoline at a place that sells pure 94 octane gasoline ( a Shell station about 65 miles from my house) and went to the races. My injector duty cycles were acceptable, and everything seemed OK as far as the trims AFR etc.
When I bought E10 premium fuel and raced, my IBPWs increased enough to trouble me and the duty cycle did in fact increase by around 6% so there does seem an answer is there as the O2 sensors seemed to know something I didn't.
Has anyone else ever noticed this? It would also seem that until we can get a grip on this our tunes are not close enough to be safe. I am so glad for the help as I am looking for a new fuel pump and this has changed my decision. Lets keep working on this, you guys are experts and I am very excited to see how this gets resolved.
Going to school on the EFILive forum,
98 tigershark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CalEditor

You could figure out off of the O2 sensors, but I am under the impression that is a ton of work. I think Mopars do it that way.

This does not come with a Sensor
http://www.zeitronix.com/images/ECAx120.gif
Ethanol Content Analyzer


or

Kost Moore Tools has a Fuel Composition Tester (J 44175) I use this tool to check fuel samples.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-Ke...241610003r9255

---

You could use a setup like this from Dualflash.
http://www.dualflash.com.au/images/P...29%20v2-sm.JPG

http://www.dualflash.com.au/index.php?categoryid=10

There is a thread around here that someone was attempting to add
the sensor and use an FF OS,
I wonder if he got it going.

http://www.efi101.com/ On the left side 5 down , look what they teach , oh my God !
You guys crack me up seeing I have visited this over a year ago , have fun figuring out what I already know .
Got to go , my Kubota needs a oil change , and the cows need to be fed , I might wander on out to the still and grab me some of that ethanol to drink , and maybe pour some in the tank as well .
Hmm . pulse width modulation , what the Heck is that .

Thanks CalEditor! That is some very good stuff.
That is one way to check every time you fill up the fuel Composition that is.
I looked at the Dual PCM and I think that is a very cool thing. But! we both know that we have to have a sensor in the tank that measures the Fuel composition in the tank and adjusts the AFR and their respective table in an on the fly fashion. Something kind of like a road runner except for the obvious automation that the PCM needs for immediate adjustments from the tank directly to the PCM and motor.
Currently we can:
1.)Have a few different tunes available to flash into the PCM for E10, E20, E30 and so on, But you have to be able to know test the fuel to know what tune to use.
2.)Go with 100% E85 and then replace most of the fuel system components (i.e. Pump, regulator, Injectors) as the stock parts on older Cars do not work well as to the needed increased fuel volume with the new E fuels.
3.) We can tune for E15 and learn to be happy with that. The E fuels is kind of like the 100% pure beef. The pumps say at least 10% ethanol or we use 100% pure gasoline. They do use 100% pure gasoline, But! They also use E10 plus 100% pure Gasoline. Spin!
The whole purpose of my tuning is to be as accurate as I could be with my EFILive and my WBO2 for economy, performance and regulations. Unless there is a constant Composition in the tank, the desired accuracy is just not there. In most cases not even close.
Now, Because of the current existence or the inevitable coming of different fuel I need to get a bigger than first thought fuel pump, Injectors and even a regulator. I think also that the E fuels kind of trick the O2 sensors a little, that is only my opinion as I am no expert. The new car requirements for pollution and our own personal requirements make it important that we figure this out in a practical accurate manner.

I suggest a fuel composition sensor in the tank that sends the correct stoich to the PCM, maybe through a small PCM that calculates this and than continually adjusts the appropriate tables in the factory PCM accordingly.
98 tigershark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr.prick

There is a thread around here that someone was attempting to add
the sensor and use an FF OS,
I wonder if he got it going.

---

Didn't someone else explain how the newer OSs use STFT to detect Ethanol and make changes in the tune rather than using the sensor , think it was in the same thread .

OK Chevy366,
I give up, I cant find the place that addresses the Earlier PCMs (non flex fuel) and Ethanol fuels. Can you please post the link, Pretty please. Before you visit your still would be nice. I had a tractor too (A Kiote), but my cows are now eaten. Pigs are much easier.
98 tigerhsark

I have read a few articles on that as well but wasn't it determined to be not reliable with most all of the non flex fuel PCMs.
If I recall correctly, the Ethanol fuels can trick the O2 sensors and therefore the Long and short term fuel trims.
That was the conclusion right?
98 tigershark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chevy366

Didn't someone else explain how the newer OSs use STFT to detect Ethanol and make changes in the tune rather than using the sensor , think it was in the same thread .

---

So STFTs change EQ1 in a GEN3 OS? :confused:
I don't recall reading how STFTs would detect what the Ethanol% is
therefore changing EQ1 automatically.
Newer OS' have a more defined stoich table per Ethanol%

The OP has a C5,
{B3601} is static with no way to change EQ1 for varying Ethanol%.
Example:
If EQ1 is set for gas (14.6AFR) and you have E10 (14.1AFR) in the tank
you are still going to command 14.6AFR not 14.1AFR and
all other fuel tables are stuck at the EQ settings based off {B3601} (14.6AFR)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eficalibrator

Ideally, you just set your defined stoich point in the table to whatever the chemistry of your fuel really is and leave it alone. (I use 14.13 for e10, 14.64 for "normal" gasoline, and 14.4 to split the difference if we're unsure of what's in the tank)

---

This answered the original question.
If you want to run more than one fuel type/mixture things complicated
with a stock C5 OS,
it's either one fuel type or the other.

Team,

It looks like GM's Virtual Fuel Sensing "technology" is being alluded to.

A few years ago GM announced that it had developed "Virtual" Fuel Sensing for Flex Fuel vehicles as an innovation that avoided the requirement for a "real" flex fuel sensor. The $700 list, $400 street sensor that sends fuel composition info to the PCM/ECM.

Read about the tech details on the "real" sensor here. It also details the FF GM vehicles the "real" sensor" is used on.

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

In short it provides a 50 - 150Hz square wave to the PCM/ECM to indicate ethanol content, and is smart enough to detect fuel contamination, and indicates fuel temperature via modulating the pulse width of the square wave.

The operation of GM's Virtual Sensor (VFS) is described in the GM patent
attached in "patent speak". Enjoy the read :shock:.

Attachment 6125

In short "it" uses fuel tank level changes to decide the tank has been filled and runs a cycle using the O2 sensors & trims to help decide what the E content is and then references various other E tables in the PCM/ECM to get the timing and the fueling optmised for E.

Interesting stuff. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gmh308

Team,

In short "it" uses fuel tank level changes to decide the tank has been filled and runs a cycle using the O2 sensors & trims to help decide what the E content is and then references various other E tables in the PCM/ECM to get the timing and the fueling optmised for E.

Interesting stuff. :)

---

I am under the impression that the fuel level sensor need to be connected on conversions also to switch back to the High octane table. If you have a conversion with out a fuel level sensor you will be stuck on the low octane table. :doh2:

funny how GM uses that sensor for more than just the EVAP system. :sly:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CalEditor

I am under the impression that the fuel level sensor need to be connected on conversions also to switch back to the High octane table. If you have a conversion with out a fuel level sensor you will be stuck on the low octane table. :doh2:

funny how GM uses that sensor for more than just the EVAP system. :sly:

---

If you log the Octane scaler, and it is above zero, you will see it ramp back down over time towards zero. Sometimes this occurs quickly, sometimes not. Seems to depend on frequency and severity of knock. Which makes good sense. :)

That is pretty cool stuff. Thank you so much. I had seen some thing like this awhile back last year. Didn't they have a separate fuel tank specification that was patented separately but must be used with this system? I think is was a sort of chopped top of pyramid style tank. I am going off of memory here so take that for what it is. Do you know anything about the special tank for this, I heard only heard of this but I think it is true. What say you gmh308? gm General manager? So what do we do?
Thanks again as that is really cool. I am curious as to how you found that,
Very grateful,
98 tigershark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 98 tigershark

OK Chevy366,
I give up, I cant find the place that addresses the Earlier PCMs (non flex fuel) and Ethanol fuels. Can you please post the link, Pretty please. Before you visit your still would be nice. I had a tractor too (A Kiote), but my cows are now eaten. Pigs are much easier.
98 tigerhsark

---

Sorry , I think I used 'Ethanol sensor' in search criteria . Try that , if not I will see if I can find it again .
Oh , watch the country hick comments , not funny !

Hey Sorry Chevy366,

I do have a tractor, I did raise cows and I do occasionally raise pigs and I have a small farm.
Even though I have never hunted from my deck I could!!
I do live in the sticks and I like Jeff Foxworthy, I think I got his name right.
We are a little sensitive today so sorry! Because I live in the sticks it is hard to get good gas and diesel.
Thanks,
98 tigershark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chevy366

Sorry , I think I used 'Ethanol sensor' in search criteria . Try that , if not I will see if I can find it again .
Oh , watch the country hick comments , not funny !

---

See My tractor in the background!

I will trade you my place in city next to Harley Davidson's R&D head quarters for your place in the NW any time. Then I would be set. My little shack in Rock Hill SC and a place in the Good Old NW. I could actually go visit friend and relatives for a change.

You would have to leave the Tractor

I saw that you are from Washougal. I like Washougal. I live 45 miles east on the WA side and then up in the mountains.
I think that Chevy366 thinks that I was making fun of Country folk because of the granola head label you get from fox news about the NW. I don't think he knows how many of us country folk there are in or from the NW.
BTW there is a somewhat new tuning outfit in Washougal I have heard some Ok things about.
I run into some of there customers at the races. One guy has a 07 ZO6 that he claims has 630 RWP dynoed by them. Thats around 700 hp+ at the crank on E85. His only improvement are a cold air intake, Headers and a Cam and only E85. LS7 injectors cant handle that not even close. Your earlier post (and link) in this thread exposes the guys that make these types of claims. There is no way the fuel system, pump, injectors especially can support that on E85.
I do not know if it is the tuning shop or the customers as I have heard good things about the shop. We just do not have very many tuners out here in the NW and you could do very well here. Something to consider! Also allot of us hot rod guys out here have Harleys too.
Maybe we could get Chevy366 to move out here too!
Take care in the City,
98 tigershark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 98 tigershark

I run into some of there customers at the races. One guy has a 07 ZO6 that he claims has 630 RWP dynoed by them. Thats around 700 hp+ at the crank on E85.

His only improvement are a cold air intake, Headers and a Cam and only E85. LS7 injectors cant handle that not even close. Your earlier post (and link) in this thread exposes the guys that make these types of claims. There is no way the fuel system, pump, injectors especially can support that on E85.
98 tigershark

---

I can vouch for that...the standard injectors on an LS7 are hitting the wall at 500HP crank on E85.

I worked for Nutter Racing Engines for a few years before moving to Wisconsin. I have friends in Stevenson, Carson, and White Salmon along with Washougal, Camas, Vancouver, and Portland. Back in the early 90's I did a lot of work for a guy with a orange 70 Road Runner and a 76 T-Bird that was in Carson at the time. I think he is in White Salmon now.

I need to do the Math on the Theoretic HP for fuel blends. It is all math so it should be very hard to do a spread sheet. E85 or E100 just simply has more BTU's per volume. End of story.

Correctamoondo!!

These are E85 compatible Delphi injectors
They look a little different and some flow a ton.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/d.../DelphiINJ.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CalEditor

These are E85 compatible Delphi injectors
They look a little different and some flow a ton.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/d.../DelphiINJ.jpg

---

Cool. Apart from flow rate, it would be interesting to know whether they do actually use different materials to the regular current injectors.

I pulled my gas tank yesterday to check on a possible leak and at the same time, as there has been a lot of E85 through the tank, checked for corrosion effects.

There is bare steel in the tank on the sender bracket. No corrosion. Just normal bare metal. No evidence of any effect in the 8 months running E85 and mixes. The tank should be fine for a long time. Stainless from Rock Valley/DSE. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gmh308

Cool. Apart from flow rate, it would be interesting to know whether they do actually use different materials to the regular current injectors.

I pulled my gas tank yesterday to check on a possible leak and at the same time, as there has been a lot of E85 through the tank, checked for corrosion effects.

There is bare steel in the tank on the sender bracket. No corrosion. Just normal bare metal. No evidence of any effect in the 8 months running E85 and mixes. The tank should be fine for a long time. Stainless from Rock Valley/DSE. :)

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I think engineers are over engineering the fuel systems for that what if situation. I have ran e85 on my s-10 non flex fuel truck with a 4.3l for over a year had no problems what so ever. Truck is still running it today.

Did you tune it for E85?

yep did tune the pcm for e85

has anyone determiend the proper formula for setting up a WB pid for E10?

I think SSdDmon was starting to so I hope he continues that post. It looked like he uses Innovative also as I do. That is a tricky deal I think from what we have learned. Mybe Paul and Ross can change the install instructions for the EFILive LC1 in their tutorials.
Glad you re brought that up.
Thanks,
98 tigershark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalky

has anyone determiend the proper formula for setting up a WB pid for E10?

---

Why would this need to be changed?
All you have to do is change EQ1 AFR for your fuel type
and all the other fuel tables will automatically change because
they are actually EQ.
Just make sure you enrichment EQ is right.

Using a Lambda based multiplier could be problematic
if your WBO2 setting for Lambda1 does not match EQ1 exactly.

Fact is I do not know. PID formula for PLX is AFR={ext.ad1}*2+10.

I am not sure this formula is valid with anything other than 14.68! SSpdDOM implied that formulas would have to change if using anything other than 14.68

It would seem that if I set B3601 to 14.11, my wb would treat 14.11 as stoich but I just wanted to tap the knowledge base here to be sure.

While we are on the subject, let me ask a question about e10 and AFR. This may have a simple answer but I cannot make heads or tails of it.

Example, LS1/LS6 ECM's used 14.68 as stoich which would imply that GM felt non-E fuel would run through the car or worst case, E10 fuel with a stoich 14.68 was still within margin of error. This is my conclusion and is seems reasonable.

When you look @ PE table B3618, AFR range is approx 11.8 to 12.6. This rich by normal fuel standards but almost ideal for E10 fuels in terms power making ranges.

Could this have been a GM failsafe for addressing non ethanol and E10 markets as a compromise? Appreciate any feedback on this. I may be in left field but is seems reasonable to me anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalky

has anyone determiend the proper formula for setting up a WB pid for E10?

---

Personally, I use an LM1. In the Innovate software, you can customize the analog output to read whatever you'd like. When you program it, you can do so using Lambda or AFR numbers. Straight from the instructions, it says this doesn't change anything - just the representation of the data. So...from there you need to decide what you want to work with. Then, you can program the sensor and set your PIDs.

If you want to work with AFR, you could program the following:
GAS=14.64.....0v=10.84.....5v=17.22....."({EXT.AD1 }*1.276)+10.84"
E10=14.07.....0v=10.42.....5v=16.55....."({EXT.AD1 }*1.226)+10.42"
E85=9.77.....0v=7.24.....5v=11.49....."({EXT.AD1}* 0.851)+7.24"

(All of the above are 0v=1.35 EQ and 5v=.85 EQ)

The equations are easy. The EXT.AD1 multiplier is simply the difference between your 5v and 0v values (5v-0v=difference) divided by the voltage spread (5v). So, for gas it was (17.22-10.84)/5=1.276. Then, you just add the 0v number on the end (outside of the brackets).

For logging EQ PIDs using those same AFR's (which translate into Lambdas of 0v=0.74074 & 5v=1.1765), the equation is a little more difficult. This is because EQ & Lambda aren't linear. A little Excel work and I came up with this equation:

EQ___0.0___2.0___"(-0.0008*({EXT.AD1}+1)*({EXT.AD1}+1)*({EXT.AD1}+1))+ (0.0179*({EXT.AD1}+1)*({EXT.AD1}+1))-(0.1895*({EXT.AD1}+1))+1.5223"

Someone will have to test that puppy out and see if it's right...and it's not going to be me this week (too much going on). :) Ideally, using those lambda numbers along with this PID equation, you should be able to disregard the AFR readout on the screen of the sensor. This means that, if I've done my math correctly, it won't matter what fuel is in the tank. If the sensor reads the mixture in terms of Lambda/EQ, this equation should back into the voltage output to provide you a stoich reading. In this case when EXT.AD1=2.975, you should be at stoich no matter what fuel type. When EXT.AD1=1.658, you should be at 1.13 EQ regardless of fuel type. And so on...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalky

Example, LS1/LS6 ECM's used 14.68 as stoich which would imply that GM felt non-E fuel would run through the car or worst case, E10 fuel with a stoich 14.68 was still within margin of error. This is my conclusion and is seems reasonable.

---

Actually it is 14.63AFR = 1% Ethanol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalky

When you look @ PE table B3618, AFR range is approx 11.8 to 12.6. This rich by normal fuel standards but almost ideal for E10 fuels in terms power making ranges.

Could this have been a GM failsafe for addressing non ethanol and E10 markets as a compromise? Appreciate any feedback on this. I may be in left field but is seems reasonable to me anyway.

---

Most likely for cat protection.
{B3601} set to 14.63AFR and the small fuel injectors
tell me that the LS1 was not meant for Ethanol.

02 and later LS6 used 14.68 as stoich.

LS1/6 also had CAT protection, B0701.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalky

02 and later LS6 used 14.68 as stoich.

LS1/6 also had CAT protection, B0701.

---

I'm stuck on the OP's OS. :doh2:
What I meant was the lower AFR would help to keep them from getting into
CAT protection mode/AFR not for actual CAT overtemp protection.

14.63 or 14.68 either way Ethanol was not meant for stock LS1
I agree with you.

Maybe I can ask this another way:

If B3601 is set to 14.68 and PE flatlined @ 12.6, you run non ethanol fuel, car will be happy under fuel power as we recognize 12.6 +/- to be a excellent power.

Now same conditions but we run E10 through car with no changes, would this not be a lean condition for E10 fuel?

FWIW, I always tuned in AFR, never used EQ or lambda. After listening to SSpdDmn and reviewing Greg Banish's video, I finally realized I needed to change methods.