Info on New LML engines for 2011

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Originally Posted by GMPX

I will say good on BullyDog for making it happen and giving LML owners a chance to get a tune. I also feel GM are going to want to know how the ECM was hacked so fast (when Bosch probably told them it couldn't be) and the EPA will then be asking GM why there is videos on YouTube of LML's blowing soot out the exhaust when they supposedly can't be tuned.

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You know it seems to me that someone broke through Microsofts Firewall a number of years ago and saposedly that was impossible. The Titanic wasn't sapose to sink either..... EFI Live wasn't going to support LBZs etc etc. Things change. In a world of performance enthusiasts, I doubt these trucks will ever be unhackable. If it does get to that point there will be a growing number of companies with Edge style boxes or Zeus style ecm's.

Our government is full of a bunch of ignorant politicans looking for a way to line their pockets with money. In the mean time they just keep kicking the can.

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Originally Posted by GMPX

I will say good on BullyDog for making it happen and giving LML owners a chance to get a tune. I also feel GM are going to want to know how the ECM was hacked so fast (when Bosch probably told them it couldn't be)

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As soon as the BullyDog is all finalized and released, I bet their first customer will be GM powertrain. Just like the first customer of the Suncoast 6-speed conversion kit was Allison. :D

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Originally Posted by DURAtotheMAX

As soon as the BullyDog is all finalized and released, I bet their first customer will be GM powertrain. Just like the first customer of the Suncoast 6-speed conversion kit was Allison. :D

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Did that really count as a customer?

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Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

Did that really count as a customer?

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Technically no...because all allison was doing was buying something back that was already theirs to begin with!

Any updates?

Nothing has changed with respect to the LML ECM controller. It is simply not able to be read, therefore it is not able to be supported unfortunately. Additionally, we are on the verge of the first Cummins product release so understandably we are focused on that right now.

How close are we to Cummins support :DDDDD????

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Originally Posted by Tordne

Nothing has changed with respect to the LML ECM controller. It is simply not able to be read, therefore it is not able to be supported unfortunately. Additionally, we are on the verge of the first Cummins product release so understandably we are focused on that right now.

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So, looks as if EFILive will never support this then? If so please advise, me and MANY others can't wait around for the LML support. I would like to buy something like a H&S Tuner since I'm driving stock truck if so. Thanks!

As per the many other posts the issue is not one of apathy or not wanting to support the LML. It is simply that the Bosch ECM has been secured and is not able to be read. Without being able to read the existing calibration it is not possible to extract the calibration to which you would apply your alterations to flash back.

We are aware that there are products that support the LML presently. We believe and expect that these products are using a method which is in violation of GM terms and conditions and we are simply not going there.

If at some stage it becomes apparent how the ECM can be read without violating these conditions then it is more then likely that we will jump to add support for the LML.

Cheers,

"We believe and expect that these products are using a method which is in violation of GM terms and conditions and we are simply not going there."

What terms and conditions are they violating? Just curious as to what they do vs what EFI does?

All I really say is that as far as we are aware at this point there is only one way to get an LML calibration which could then be modified. Any if that is the mechanism they are using it is in breach of the terms and conditions.

ACDelco TDS Website
Terms and Conditions of UseProhibited Activities. You agree not to:

1. Reproduce, copy, modify, adapt, distribute, transmit, transfer, republish, compile or decompile, reverse engineer, distribute, transmit, display, remove or delete the GM Intellectual Property or the content and information provided by GM, its third party licensors and/or other users of ACDelco TDS;
2. Allow unauthorized disclosure or copying of any part of ACDelco TDS or any information obtained from ACDelco TDS;

Because you as the end user of EFILive currently use our software to read the ECM program from your vehicle, nobody is in breach of this service. If we were to start distributing files downloaded from TIS as the base calibration for LML's we are in breach of the above and will probably get sued. So given the ECM can't be read through the OBD-II port, how do we (or anybody for that matter) legally distribute the files for tuning purposes when the only source I know of to get them is from TIS?

In addition, as I mentioned at some other point in this thread, having our customers open up the ECM to put it in a special boot mode so the file can be read via debug pins (which you would need to solder on to) is not going to happen either, it's a ridiculous method of tuning an ECM, but this is what the Europeans have been doing for a while now with the Bosch ECM's.
http://www.cmdtec.it/prod_bootMEDC17.asp

I just got my May 2011 copy of Diesel World and there is an article on the Banks Duramax Day at the front, particularly showcasing the LML.
What is interesting is the statement in there that says 'The Duramax V8 diesel is becoming increasingly significant for racing, marine and military applications and is considered to be the "hot rod" of diesel engines'. What they forgot to add at the end of that sentence is...........'until in 2011 some schmuck at GM decided to fit the most evil ECM ever conceived to control it, if only they chose Delphi as a supplier for Diesel ECM's like Mercedes Benz now do', heck, even the new Chevy Cruze diesel is using a Delphi ECM.

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Originally Posted by GMPX

I just got my May 2011 copy of Diesel World and there is an article on the Banks Duramax Day at the front, particularly showcasing the LML.
What is interesting is the statement in there that says 'The Duramax V8 diesel is becoming increasingly significant for racing, marine and military applications and is considered to be the "hot rod" of diesel engines'. What they forgot to add at the end of that sentence is...........'until in 2011 some schmuck at GM decided to fit the most evil ECM ever conceived to control it, if only they chose Delphi as a supplier for Diesel ECM's like Mercedes Benz now do', heck, even the new Chevy Cruze diesel is using a Delphi ECM.

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This is going to be crazy, yes I know: What about having a customer that is willing to send the ECM to you (or someone within the US) to pull these tunes from the ECM to make a base of STOCK Tunes to distrubute with EFILive, after a few months you should have all OS's covered.

I remember back to the 80's/90's, the elaborate protection schemes that software companies used to try to implement to stop people copying floppy discs, they never worked for more than a month. Then came the Playstation 1 (cracked), Playstation 2 (cracked), Playstation 3......bzzzt, all good things must come to an end when the manufacturers decide they really want to stop something. It's taken 5 years for someone to be able to execute 'non SONY' code on the PS3, and now they are getting sued by SONY for doing so.
The EDC17 is the Playstation 3 of the tuning world. Your concept is sort of valid and one we thought of too, but in the end from a business perspective, there is a whole lot more out there EFILive could be working on than flogging this dead horse. I understand your persistence to get us tuning these ECM's because you own one, but from a 'business perspective' there far more tempting markets waiting to be tuned and we don't have to run around in circles and jump through hoops to support them.
IMHO GM has just put the Duramax back in the dark ages with this ECM, but they might not even be aware of that (or care), or they are simply constrained by the new emissions laws to do what has been done.

At this point in time there nothing that anyone can say or do to persuade us to change our stance on how we would be supporting the LML. I'll reiterate it once more, unless we can read the ECM via the OBD-II port, it isn't going to happen. We aren't going to be distributing stock files with our software that were not obtained by reading the ECM through the OBD-II port. Flashing the ECM with multiple vehicle models with TIS to cover all OS's and segment variations then reading them out through the CPU's debug port is not in breach of TIS regulations how? You still used TIS for the purpose of reverse engineering or copying. Reading an ECM through the diagnostic port has nothing to do with TIS.
The way EFILive (and other PC based custom tuners operate) is technically very different to any hand held type tuner out there, I think this is the point everyone is missing when they say that H&S or BullyDog can tune them. At minimum you should be thankful that those companies are at least going to be offering 'something' for sale with regards to a better tune.

Sorry, but this whole LML issue is not our fault, if it was just a carry over from the LMM then you know you would be tuning it with EFILive as we speak. This is not EFILive turning it's back on our loyal Duramax users, though I really feel it's being perceived that way.

Thanks for all the info. There is so much to computer engineering that I know nothing of, and give a round of applause to the EFI live crew for all of their accomplishments. I guess I get excited about the LML simply because it is another duramax :)

My next question is why does GM use bosch ecm's on some vehicles and delphi on others? Like my G8 V6 is bosch, but the G8 V8 is delphi (because it is an LS2 engine {i think}) And why did they make the switch between the LLY and LBZ? Is bosch a better ecm than delphi? less expensive? Once again, curiosity :)

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Originally Posted by andrewjamesbond1

My next question is why does GM use bosch ecm's on some vehicles and delphi on others? Like my G8 V6 is bosch, but the G8 V8 is delphi (because it is an LS2 engine {i think}) And why did they make the switch between the LLY and LBZ? Is bosch a better ecm than delphi? less expensive? Once again, curiosity :)

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Only GM could answer those questions, probably look to the accounting department for the answer.

Subscribed...I have alot of clients asking whats the word. Great info on here, thanks for the info and explanation. Hoop things change, I really like the EFI system.

If anyone can do it, I believe the crew at EFI Live can... if it can be engineered, it can be reverse engineered, it just takes more and more time as the designs become more intricate. But I'd rather wait for EFI Live to do it than purchase another company's product. EFI Live for life!

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Originally Posted by LBZoom

If anyone can do it, I believe the crew at EFI Live can... if it can be engineered, it can be reverse engineered

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Well, to a point this is very true, however Bosch ECM's have always been locked up a little tighter than the Delphi ECM's. This time they just went one step further, it's not like we don't know what we are doing with this and that is why we are stuck. GM/Bosch just removed the ability to read the ECM via the OBD-II port, not much we can do about that, the function is GONE, probably for good on this ECM. Bosch still have a card up their sleeve to lock this ECM down totally so even opening up the ECM won't get you anywhere, maybe that will come on the 2012 model when they see LML's blow soot out the exhaust.

Yeah, unfortunately this is the direction of the diesel world.... but as far as reverse engineering I know you guys are doing your best so no rush on my behalf, they're still under warranty for a couple more years anyway, and like you said this may never happen, at least not legally.

Usually when I have an issue with solving a problem I drink some beer, it makes you smarter, after all, it made Bud-Wieser lol :cheers:

I guess I'll ask the stupid question for the day ..... I know that the 2011 HD's are different than the 2010's (both LMM vs. LML and revised Allison 6 speed vs. older model 6 speed) BUT, what are the chances you could take a LMM 6 speed ECM/TCM combo and hook it up to a 2011 LML?

I realize there is more to it than that, (BCM, EBCM, etc...), but has anyone thought through this option?

Never thought of that... and was thinking it would be a sweet way to by pass all of this, but there is a 9th injector in the exhaust manifold for DPF burn so you can run 20% BIO.... I dont think the engine and the LMM computer would be too happy being together lol

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Originally Posted by turbo_bu

I guess I'll ask the stupid question for the day ..... I know that the 2011 HD's are different than the 2010's (both LMM vs. LML and revised Allison 6 speed vs. older model 6 speed) BUT, what are the chances you could take a LMM 6 speed ECM/TCM combo and hook it up to a 2011 LML?

I realize there is more to it than that, (BCM, EBCM, etc...), but has anyone thought through this option?

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Don't think that will work either as the LML/LGH uses PIEZO injectors instead of the old on off solonoid type that ran on a flat voltage curve.

Fermanator,

Forgot about the piezo injectors. yeah - scratch that idea.

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Originally Posted by GMPX

Looks like the LML has had an ECM flash update already:

"New software with diagnostic enhancements for DTC P0513".
"New calibration with robustness enhancements for DTCs P0299, P204F, P22A0, P2202, and stuck DEF tank level low messages."

I wonder if GM were kind enough to realise their mistake of locking the ECM's down and open them up again so the update should also say:

"New software to allow the after market to tune our trucks so people will still want to buy them".

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:hihi::hihi::hihi:

Its too bad, but I think we all just have to take a deep breath and look at it from EFILive's perspective. I respect them for not blindly wading into a "gray area" as far as legality issues with distributing files that arent theirs, or yours!

Really the only "theoretical" way I could see them supporting it is if you sent them YOUR [LML] ECM, they opened it up, read YOUR stock tune out that way, sent the ECM back to you, and sent YOUR tune file back to YOU so then you could modify it with EFILive and reflash it back into the ECM as many times as you want.

From a "legal" standpoint, I dont see a problem with this.

However, from a realistic/logical standpoint, its just not really feasible. Im sure Ross has better things to do (and more exciting things to do) than sit around opening up ECM's and reading them out all day long. :)

But think about it guys....why do we really NEED to custom tune the LML? Its still the exact same 8GF1 architecture that dates back to the 11 year old LB7. IF EFILive supported the LML, its not like its going to be any big surprise what it will [probably] be capable of out of the box stock, not enough has really changed on it to make it more or less capable than any past 01-10 duramax... (~520rwhp stock, once the trans is built)

We already know how to make duramax's fast. If you want an all-out shiny "basically new" race truck that hauls ass, just buy a 2010 LMM and tune it/build it to your hearts content. Aftermarket power increases are going to be no different than the 01-10 dmax's. On the LML, you're still gonna have to build the trans, you're still gonna need a lift pump, you're still gonna need a bigger turbo if you want >550rwhp, and you're still gonna need dual high pressure pumps if you want more than ~650rwhp, and you're still going to need to build the internals if you want more than ~700rwhp.

Does that make sense? And if you do own an LML and just want better fuel economy while making the truck more fun to drive, go buy an H&S or BullyDog tuner and im sure that will be plenty to satisfy you.

And if you say you want the new 2011 chassis and stuff, but want to tune it and make it seriously fast...............just swap in an LMM and the associated harness and ECM. It will be all bolt-in and plug and play with the 2011 body electronics...no different than/just as easy as swapping an LLY into a 2003-2004 LB7 truck, or swapping an LBZ into a 2003-2005 truck. ;)

Ben

Ben you are correct in many aspects of your post.
For all the enquiries we get on the LML, 95% are "Can I remove the DEF and DPF"? So there is no doubt in my mind what people really want to do and with this particular model, if any company is offering the ability to do that, you might as well book your day in court with the EPA when you release it. If H&S or BullyDog are offering a typical 50HP-80HP update with all emissions still active then you do have an option if you need more power.

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Originally Posted by GMPX

Ben you are correct in many aspects of your post.
For all the enquiries we get on the LML, 95% are "Can I remove the DEF and DPF"? So there is no doubt in my mind what people really want to do and with this particular model, if any company is offering the ability to do that, you might as well book your day in court with the EPA when you release it. If H&S or BullyDog are offering a typical 50HP-80HP update with all emissions still active then you do have an option if you need more power.

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I don't see how it's any different from taking the DPF off? Unless your falling back on the original retrieving stock file issue.

This thread is becoming really repetitive as far as people not accepting our position and reasoning as to why we've decided to not continue development on the LML, it's now closed.