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pops head up from the trenches! That was my plan!Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
My LC-1 has been in ever since I got it, and my NBO2 is on my bench for purpose of gazing at... :D
:D For me it would be a convenience thing, as in once the widebands are in I cannot be arsed getting under the car to swap over! I think I'm going down the 2 widebands route - gives a backup and better picture if both working
guys
I've gotten my old nb off and was about to start following Joes superb instructions but I hit my first stumbling block!
My nb connector is totally different from the ones you've described. Instead of a 4 way square it is a flat four way connector - imagine a large connector from inside a pc connecting to say an old IDE hard drive.
What is the pin outs on these?
There original colours are 2 browns next to each other then a purple then a sort of light brown - I just want to double and tipple check before I start hacking away.
Also the reason my nb failed? The crimps used by the tuners to extend the wire came loose - effing annoying!
Check to make sure the connector is labeled. It should tell you which wire is A, B, C, and D.Quote:
Originally Posted by stigmundfreud
http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.ph...9&postcount=72
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
you are a star, yes embossed on the underside is abcd in reverse order!
Cheers!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSpdDmon
My understanding is that the Innovate LC-1 (#1) output works just as the original nbo2. Switching occurs in response to fueling where 1.1v = a 14 AFR. If the voltage is above 1.1v its considered rich. If its below 1.1v its lean. The PCM does not know how lean or how rich it just changes the fueling to drive it the opposite direction until a switch occurs then drives it back the other way. Over a period of time the magnatude of the fuel changes are reduced so that the switching now occurs very close above and below 1.1v. The switching times should be very quick at this point and this would now indicate a fairly good stoich.
Any other clarification on this issue? If not I guess I should talk to someone at Innovate.
Thanks
LEC
1.1 = 14 afr?!? Surely its 0.45 or there abouts for 14.7. Above 0.45 the car is rich, below it is lean but by how much no one knows (unless the wb is also hooked up)?
This is how the LC-1 simulates the NBO2:
it is programmed something like this (approximate values):
50 mV == AFR 15.1
1000 mV == AFR 14.3
This is a fairly steep downstep...
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/489/lc1nboutputtt6.png
(arrgghhh... I forgot to click the "use air-fuel-ratio" hole, but you still get the picture).
approximately midway between those is 400~500 mV which corresponds to AFR 14.7 (stoichiometric air:fuel ratio for gasoline)...
the PCM commands some fuel, and say it's turns out to be a little lean (PCM doesn't know this just yet), the O2 sensor then reports say 200 mV (leaner than 14.7), the PCM sees this and now commands a little richer, then O2 sensor reports say 700 mV (richer than 14.7) the PCM see this and now commands a little leaner, and the cycle repeats several times per second.
The steep downstep transfer function allows this voltage switching to occur between the PCM and NBO2 (the PCM drives it, the NBO2 responds to it).
:)
It's funny....if you assume (like many people do) that 900mV is ~13:1, the equation for a NB simulation really should look like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
50mV=16.3:1
1050mV=12.3:1
Then again, that's assuming the NBO2's output is linear. Wonder how that equation would actually work in practice???
Jeff, if you spread it out too much (make it less steep), then it behaves more like a wideband than a narrowband... it won't switch, it will report the actual AFR... :D
Remember, a narrowband is accurate at 14.7, and all else is just "rich/lean relative to 14.7".
Makes sense...Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
Didn't have my coffee this morning. :doh:
I have the 6 wire LC-1 (so no green analog ground).
When stripping back the rubber protective cable to seperate out I discovered a bare metalic wire.
Now this wire was inside the rubber and not exposed at all. The confusing thing is the LC-1 manual refers to a metalic wire for sytem ground if using a 6 wire LC-1. There is no mention of a white cable for the six wire.
Any ideas?
Have just bench tested my 6 wire LC-1
the metalic wre that was hidden away inside the rubber armour is actually a system ground too. Not sure if thats any use to anyone so far but for people in the future that may get the 6 wire you actually do have the green wire too - only it has no sheilding and is hidden away inside the armour.
For those that have mounted under the car where did you go for and what route did you take to get the wiring into the car?
My wideband sensor failed last night (error 8, extended idling in stopped freeway traffic)...
Anyone know where they can be obtained for the best price (including shipping)...?
What is it's part #...?
I've heard of them (5-wire Bosch LSU4.2 or whatever they are) being sold for $55~$60. Don't remember where though.
joe your best bet is to get the VW equivilant sensor from a vw specialist = $$$ saved. 021-906-262-B = part number but as said the sensors are cheap the controllers a bastardQuote:
Originally Posted by joecar
BTW Managed to get it all in, I used the gromit above the transmission tunnel and dropped the 02 down the hole. How long those screw clips will last one can only guess but so far its all hooked up - much happer with teh lc-1 being in the car too!
Ok, thanks. :cheers:
no! Thank you! I start logging tomorrow - lets just hope the wires all stick together ;)
As for that partnumber its in the LC-1 document so if its wrong dont sue me ;)
here's a question
I just got a replacement sensor after the old one died. I re-read the guides and in the shipped documentation for LC-1 install it mentioned changing the shipped settings to match the efilive calculations.
The EFI Live guide mentioned programming the wideband to use the following outputs:
a. 0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
b. 4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00
Those are different to teh shipped default A2 outputs, should I change the LC-1 to match these settings or is it ok to use the default shipped settings with the EFI Live PID?
0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00
these are the values you enter in the LM programmer software
for the analog output you will use (brown or yellow wire)
to work with the default PID.
thanks,
I hadnt done that before so I've reverted back to my original VE and installed the new sensor - still getting timing issues so possibly got an issue with the controller itself but maybe setting to the above may calm things down.
It is strange as last night it was working fine but this morning (cold as winter is upon us) it went straight to a timing issue
Alright im having trouble connecting my LC-1 to my flashscan v2. Alright well since im not using a gauge. And im confused in the manual provided because they only use the V1 in there, so where does the yellow wire go? Do i just connect the brown wire (analog output 2) and the yellow wire (analog output 1) to the flashscan??? if so in which pins??im confused:nixweiss: thanks for the help!
NO! Dont connect both yello and brown!!!
If you are using A2 output from the LC-1 you connect brown and white or green to the scan tool. Never cross brown and yellow together.
If your LC-1 is a 7 wire you cna use either green or white for the signal ground.
Before you do it all though wire up a little test bench. Get a cheap 12v battery to simulate the circuit so you can test everything with a multimeter. Then install into the car using the same wiring.
Red goes to switched 12v
blue goes to ground
if you are just using it as a wideband and not simulating narrow band you only need to use either brown or yellow. To keep things simple I used brown and then white for signal ground.
Brown plugs into the + connector of the flash scan and white into the -. In your box you will have a load of mini brown/orange coloured connectors that fit into the scanner. If you turn the scanner upside down you will see a guide under neath for analog ports and thermal ports.
Look for the ones that say A1 +/- something like that. Work out which side of the connector is +/- and wire brown or yellow to the + and white or green to the -
In lc programmer go to the channel you are using (yellow = a1, brown = a2) and set hi and low voltage to 1V (1000mV) hit program, wait 10 seconds then turn off the car. Wait 30 seconds and turn on, once your LED flashes a solid red you should measure the voltage at the scan tool, it should measure 1v constant. With the multi meter you can put the probes into the screw lugs on the orange connector. It should be reading 1.00 or 0.99
Next using lc-1 programmer set the hi/lo voltage to 4v (4000mV) and again wait 10 seconds, turn off, wait 30 seconds turn on and wait for solid light. At this point measure the voltage hitting - 4.00 or 3.99 or close.
You want to be measuring at both the terminal and what the scan tool is registering (look on the data tab)
If it looks out calibrate you may want to look at calibrating the port on the scan tool but make sure you are aware of the concequence of that. I had to do that but recalibrated whilst my usb was plugged into the scan tool and the LC-1 which meant that if I scanned without being plugged into both the scan tool would over read (ie the signal raised due to not having both usb port plugged in. There must be a differential that the scan tool picked up on)
something to bear in mind. It was simple to diagnose. Sat stationary and just looking at the LC-1 AFR reading on scan tool would read say 15.7. Plug in the LC-1 to logworks and it would read 14.7 in both, unplug the lc-1 usb and the scan tool would raise again so I now do all my logging with both plugged in as a result!
Alrigt thanks, yes im just using it for a wideband. I have the 6 wire LC-1. Right now i have the signal ground(white) and the heater ground(blue) connected to a ground source. I did the free air calibration and seemed to get it right with the led flashing ect. Ok so now i should take off the white where im grounding it from and connect it and the brown to the scan tool? and just leave the yellow taped off right?
yep that would do it
do take time to check the voltage outputs though as it will save you the headache I had. Checked it off car but then on car there was a drop off due to connectors used.
Also make sure its on a switched 12v, dont drive with out power to the wb or you'll kill it
do run log works and efilive at the same time to corrolate the afr readings to make sure efi tracks true to logworks. I set the update from instant to 1/12 second within logworks as it gave a much more stable response. I believe the new efi firmware does 10x over sampling to also stop jitters but I never got around to installing it.
Alright, i believe i connected everything right. When i select the pids, it reads the Base Efficiency Numerator 1 LC-1 pid, but the Wide Band AFR LC-1 has a red X trough the Pid. And when i went logging, every cell count was displaying perfect on the BEN map. But when i click the X with the line over it, every cell has a value of 0.00 .. Whats wrong in here?? I programmed the LC-1 how the tutorial and you said.. i believe its not reading the wideband, right? thanks for the help
also select AD1 or AD2 voltage PID.
whichever one you have the LC1 connected to.
yea i selected them, alright now i want to know if im doing the logging right before i take it for a long log. Heres a screenshot of just a 10 min run, am i on the right track? I want to make sure before i do a long log and only to find out it wasn't working properly.. what do you guys think?
http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/1194/logla3.jpg
and heres the main VE, before and after
http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/2...reafteruv0.jpg
in your ten minute run did you never go above 2000rpm?!? also for them all to be sat at 0.50 it looks like you have something wrong somewhere.
Cant you post a copy of your log file up for people to look at?
http://img454.imageshack.us/img454/1194/logla3.jpg
these do not look like base efficiency numbers,
unless you are running SUPER rich.
Yea i went to like 5800RPM.. it looks like that i think because i cleared some cells. Ill try and post my log file up for you guys to see. Also my AFR is at 14.68
edit: heres the log file, what do you guys think?
no those are not right, you havent got any reading from the LC-1 at all. Your lc1-afr is a steady 7 and your voltage is a steady 0
this means you are not getting any logged data. All your cell values are 0.5 either high, low or average.
Connect your laptop to Logworks at the same time as the scan tool. Look at logworks to monitor the AFR fom the serial port and use scan tool to look at the AFR. You should see the LC-1 registering something around expected idle afr's
I'd suspect, just suspect, you ahve wired your terminal wrong to the scan tool. As in - is going to the + port and visa versa.
Before altering the wiring though use a multimeter and check the voltage at the scantool plug in terminal and ensure you are getting voltages there.
ok ill be sure to connect it to logworks. Yes the brown wire is at the + side of the scan tool and the white at the - .. Am i'm algo getting voltage at the scan tool in the orange connector.
the brown wire is the #2 analog out.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazinblue
make sure in the lm programmer you have the #2 out properly programmed.
even if its not correctly programmed you would expect >0.0v it sounds like something isnt wired up right. It is sometimes easy to plug the connector just one slot over so + is in - and - is in a2 +
connecting to logworks will tell you what your lc-1 is seeing. Do you get a constant red LED?
Yea i used to get a constant led. well i gave up on installing it.. now all of a sudden i get the led error code, the 5 flash led error, which means that i have to replace the cable or the sensor.:Eyecrazy: And i never turned on the truck when the sensor wasn't on. but i guess its damaged.
Why does the NB output have to be wired into the PCM? Is there a reason that I cant just hook up the WB to my Flashscan and do what I need?
Can I not just shove my WB in another bung and leave the 2 NB's inplace
I know it's probably a noobie question, sorry
Yes you can use another bung, you can also use the WB to simulate NB via one of its outputs so it is up to you. Some people use the PCM connector as it is convenient to get earth and power - others go direct to chassis and battery though I believe going direct to battery/chassis can cause signal problems (others can be clearer on that)