That is true and an absolute!
mr.prick is right. read through this thread from the front to the back, I think it will really help you and its free.
It is very good stuff and it helped me.
98 tigershark
14.07, and we need to discuss spark and timing now!!!
The newer PCMs say 14.07.
Ha Ha HA, You got mr.prick to stay on this thread. I am glad as he always stays on course!! I mean that as a compliment too. But that is a very good question also because it is more than just the E%. When are we going to get around to the Spark aand Timing issues too and what that does to the AFR with the E fuels and the vaporization issues and spark and flash. No mater what the E fuel% is, the motor seems to pick its spot as far as timing regardless of what is commanded, and timing does affect how the actual AFR is obtained also, Since that is static, something is tricking the PCM, How can this be and how do we adjust spark for the correct AFR in B3601? My logging says it is right today(new gas from Portland), but, I put an old fashioned timing light on the HB and it says it is different than the PCM is commanding this weekend. I had that happen before and it is not a loss reluctor. Is the PCM is commanding the right timing or just showing it that way when I log. In other words do the E fuels trick the PCM as that is all I can think of as that has to change the commanded AFR also??? Really!
98 tigershark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mr.prick
I do understand so get this.....
I set up my car making it think it had larger injectors by about 6%. You would think since B3601 is static that the IBPWs should be smaller and the AFR way off. Under the PE/RPM table the IBPWs were more, they should have been less and run lean. The PE AFR was the almost the same and the commanded Tuned/Logged timing logged a higher than actual when checked with a timing light on the HB. I am switching to LAMBDA for the most part and did not get this finished as planned. But this I know, The PCM does seem to be able to be tricked. I have no clue how this happens as the trims were almost the same. In 97-98 Vette PCMs are set up to run rich stock @62psi Inj pressure so I would buy your theory for those years but that was changed to a leaner condition from 99 on @58 psi and Inj flow accordingly.
Go Figure,
98 tigershark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chalky
I am aware of this. My point being did GM set the PE table up as unusually rich or were they acknowledging the fact that many cars would see E10 and set up PE tables to acknowledge a rich non-ethanol AFR or a damn close PE for E10.
Well Said, But, $800.00 for a tune that would be worthless?
Here is a new one on me. Today I put gas in my tanK from a place in Portland that I know for sure has E10 and 90% Gasoline.. My car ran tremendously better and was happy. So on the way home today I bought a gallon of Premium from a station that I filled up before. I asked the owner this Question and very carefully:
Q:Were can I buy E85 as I wished we had a station that sells it around here as the Octane is really good for my care and worth as much as E10 Gas?
A:They said we get E85 (also that sometimes its a little old so they get a good deal) from a whole seller when the other prices are too high during the summer and holiday seasons. Also to ask so I could get the right pump. E85 is 2/3 ( instead of $3.00+ a gal, E85 is 2.00 a gal) the price of E10 so do I trust a little station now in this economy, no!!
What can I say. I could tell my car was not running well and the fuel milage was terrible also. It even sounded lean and the timing was off. When I refilled today, my car was very happy. So here is the big deal. That could have toasted my engine and If I had paid a local tuner for an $800.00 tune it would be worthless as it was done with E85 not E0-E10. I could have also done allot of other damage. Almost double the consumption and a very sissy like sound and throttle response and the timing was somehow not as commanded.
You see not just because it is B3601, But anything higher than E10 can cause damage and even wasted money on an expensive tune or a voided warranty. I was pretty sure it was very bad fuel but it did drive me crazy as I think my car is pretty darn fast and it was a sissy mobile.
I am going to try to get a system in my car this winter to know, as I have to much time and money invested to let a gas station or a distributor or an honest mistake even ruin my car.
Thanks SSpdDmon as you are on solid ground with the known part, but you missed an important point because you are honest. Unfortunately that does not mean everyone is or perfect!! We have to find a way on the fly!!
Something to think about.
98 tigershark
I did not know it was E85, the pump said E10. $100.000 profit?
I did not know that was the case as to the gas until I asked later, yesterday as a matter of fact, I thought I had bought E10 as that is what it said on the pump on the previous fill. Not E85 as it turned out!! The point is that how do you know what is in the tank? In this case the station put E85 in the E10 tanks and sold E85 for the price of E10 and in an E10 pump. They admitted it. Because they got a good deal on it. Think about that. A station 10 or 30 times a year puts E85 in the E10 tanks. If the Station tanks are around 10,000 gallons, thats an extra $10,000 they make if they sell it as E10 when it should be sold as E85. If they do this 10 times a year they have made $100.000.00 extra. Then suddenly a small struggling station or a crooked one or a fuel distributor, or just an honest mistake, whatever the situation is, selling E85 in the E10 pumps has to be happening more and more. And you are right I am worried about the damage and the mechanical aspect. I would never put E85 in my tank knowingly, as my setup can barely handle E10 as to the 40% plus volume requirements needed for E85. I was pretty ticked off when they said they do this sometimes. Would most of the public notice this, probably not. So they can get away with it. I am not even sure if it is legal. But the extra profit will surely make this kind of thing happen more!
Thanks SSpdDmon as you are right I am concerned about the mechanical side. The point was this kind of thing will happen more and more I think.
Take care,
98 tigershark
Techron= 14.63 Stioch=1EQ=1LMDA
Hey mr.prick/SSpdDmon
It does seem that some things are a mute issue but I think this PID if I understand it correctly will help me as to the fuel. I think that is going to become a very big deal if not already. Mr P Dont forget you use fuel enriched with Techron. 1% or so,=14.63.
nanner nanner nanner!!
SSpdDmon, thanks for the PID, I will use it, thanks as I said I have not made any Custom PIDs, I dont call setting up the LC1 when originally programing a custom PID. It seems like this one really works and has sparked my interest into those, so thanks.
Thanks for the PID
98 tigershark
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mr.prick
I F&*@$! that up.
:doh2:
I meant AFR/14.7 = Lambda
{B3601} does not match my WBO2 setting for Lambda1.
EQ1 = 14.63
Lambda1 = 14.7
This is why I am sticking with AFR/EQ.
Thanks for catching that.
1 Attachment(s)
How does all of this equate. Ethanol manual attached
Hey guys,
This has been a great learning thread for me so thank you.
I stumbled upon an article today that really helped me understand the bigger picture of all fuels including gas.
Especially with the new Flex fuel cars and the VVT, VE, Coefficients, the Zones spark and on and on. It is attached and is an easy read.
After reading this I might even try to mix a little water with ethanol.
Take a look at the attachment and let us know if this help better understand the newer systems. It did occur to me that they thermal zones I think and their coefficients as to vaporization of whatever fuel we are using. A thermal Zone and VE WOW!! Plus it show the energy potential and advatges and disadvantages. Even VE and stoich!!
98 tigershark
