Shouldn't, but we will keep our eyes open. Serial connection is so much easier and no Analog offsets necessary..(need V2) but as long as you can define Lambda it should work..:).
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Shouldn't, but we will keep our eyes open. Serial connection is so much easier and no Analog offsets necessary..(need V2) but as long as you can define Lambda it should work..:).
Quote:
If so, then in Shawn's calc_pids.txt file you need to replace {EXT.WO2LAM1} with {CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7
Replace {CALC.AFR_LC11} with the pid for your DynoJet wideband AFR, and replace 14.7 with whatever the DynoJet assumes to be stoich (most likely 14.7).
Does this look correct. I changed it to this.
*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * {EXT.W02DJ1}/14.7"
Should read like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen WS6
*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * {CALC.AFR_DJ1}/14.7"
joecar, as a coder, I believe you should know how having 'magic numbers' in your code is Bad Mojo (TM). Do not use 14.7 unless you can guarantee me that my fuel has a 14.7 stoich. Last weekend I got to play with a car where I spent hours figuring out why my calculations where wrong, and it turned out that the fuel had almost 20% Ethanol in it, throwing off all kinds of calculations.
Marcin,Quote:
Originally Posted by redhardsupra
Good point, you are correct;
I'm assuming that the wideband controller assumes 14.7 as the multiplier.
In the case of the Innovate controllers, the stoich AFR is programmable, and instead of 14.7, the programmed value should be used.
In the case of other widebands, the user manual would state what the assumed stoich AFR is, and that should be used instead of 14.7.
This is why I had carefully worded the second part of this response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
Marcin raises an important issue. Make sure B3601 is correct for your type of Fuel. There are inexpensive kits that you can buy that will test for the amount of Ethanol in your 'fuel'. Thats the value that needs to be entered in B3601.
As a side note, keeping your Fueling Parameters in EQ (Tune Tool) prevents a lot of confusion in Fueling Calculations, especially when entering PE Mode/WOT.
I'll try to add an note in the ongoing Tutorials..its a major issue and has been throughly discussed in numerous threads. Joecar's statement is absolutely correct. Addressing the differing Wideband Controller's multiplier makes it challenging.
The bottom line is B3601 needs to be correct.
Ok corrected it to that. I have to put the car out side in the 25 degree cold today. So I'll use that time out side to run a scan. I'm not sure if or what the ethanol ratings are up here. I think there is a sticker on the gas pumps that says because we have alot of small planes and they can't run it in them. I'll try to remember to look.Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
Your data acquisition device, or flash tuner device,
should have a provision in their software to define
the analog input. Enter the following formula:
(Volts * 1.6)+10 = AFR.
I found this in the install guide. Does this help with anything?
Also my B3601 stoich is set at 14.63
25 degrees outside..You probably don't want to hear it will be 75F in Denver tomorrow..:grin:.
Frozen, normally B3601 will range from 14.124 (E10) to 14.63 (gasoline). In reality your NB's and WB all read Lambda anyway. What Joe was talking about was the 'Multiplier' used in many widebands to output AFR (i.e. stoich * Lambda).
My main point was in the Tune Tool under 'Edit..Properties..Commanded Fuel Properties', just 'click' EQ or Lambda. From there it is pretty easy to configure your wideband to read properly..usually just another calculated pid..
My advice is to 'unlearn' AFR and re-learn EQ or Lambda..:).
P.S..Nice assortment of TA's..Thats a fast time on that 98!
There are 3 concepts mentioned here:
1. B3601 should be set to the actual stoich AFR of the fuel (as determined by the alcohol test kit).
2. The wideband AFR reported via analog voltage is equal to stoich*Lambda.
3. Set the tunetool to display fueling tables in EQ units or Lambda units, and forget about AFR units.
+1 nice collection of TA's :cheers:
75 degrees :damnit1:. Colorado is definatly a place I want to visit someday.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeathermanShawn
My properties page look exactly like that attachment. I've gone off those before. It is definately easier to watch, with 1.00 being perfect and .98 a tad rich but safe, plus I can do that math to figure out what my afr is. Haha.. Also that's what my VETAVE map shows.
I did do a in park log just to see if things are working while I had it outside alittle bit ago. Everything seem like it's reading good now. Except my CALC.AFR_DJ1 is locked on 10.00 afr
and CALC.AFR_DJ1 volts are locked on 0.0.
I'll read up later this evening on how to post my log and see what you guys think.
Thanks. That time for the 98 blackbird was a fat 150 shot it's got alot more left (I'm going up to a 250 shot this summer) if I can fine tune this NA tune for the pump gas. I have a dedicated fuel cell for the spray with 109 in it.
The red WS6 is 100% street crusier that has the stock tune in it. So after I get the blackbird done I'll do the red one.
When viewing B3605 or B3647, make sure you know when you're looking at Lambda vs EQ.
Is your DJ wideband connected to your V1 correctly...?
I just went and double checked my wiring. I've got my signal wire going to #C on the 3 wire block. My ground and signal ground going to #D and I've hooked up my 2 step box to #E. Following the efilive instructions on page 107. The DJ has a Y cable that one goes to the gauge and the other is 2 wires that go to the Black Box.
So I should be good there. I don't have a B3647 but my B3605 is in EQ. So I'll definately have to pay attention to that. :thumb_yello:
Pin #C sends the voltage signal to EXT.AD2 (see scantool user manual pdf)... this means you have to use CALC.AFR_DJ2.
( B3647 is the COS version of B3605 )
Or could I just switch those two wires on the orange block and be ok. Move my WB signal wire to #E and my 2 step to #C?
Yes, you could swap the wires between pins #C and #E.
Cool. I like that better because that will keep me close to the tutorial. That way when I refer back to it (and I will) I don't get myself lost. Haha
Based on the PM's I have received it seems the most difficulties with utilizing the CALC.VET method of Tuning is in implementing the calc_pids.txt file. This includes merging with existing calc_pids.txt, displacement, analog WO2's etc.. I.E., the 'computer stuff'.
We are working on making some of those issues easier. In the meantime, the best offer I can give you is to post your concerns/problems on this thread. Depending on our personal workloads, Joecar or myself can probably help. Its always best to try yourself..you learn more that way, but if you really get stuck posting up may also help others.
Some users have asked about utilizing AFR in lieu of EQ. This method of tuning does not preclude the use of AFR. EQ and BEN's are just an easy computation, and saves a few Pids. If you are utterly opposed to anything but AFR, the calc_pids.txt can be written to accommodate you.
Thanks..
WeathermanShawn..
WeathermanShawn you beat me to it.
I am one of the pms that Shawn recieved. I have changed some stuff in the calc pids.txt file before, but I dont like to do it. I am not a computer guy. Getting much better since I have had EFI but I am still wary of changing some things for fear of messing it up. Heck I dont even like to update the software for fear of loosing something. Can the pids be added to the current text? I dont want to loose some of the stuff that I have now. I do think though that having the Calc.Vet stuff would be awesome to have in my tuning arsenal. That leads me to another of my issues. I know that I can use EQ, but I am a ASE Master tech, shop owner and I have always been taught in AFR. I use it everyday. It just seems easier to me to use that in lieu of EQ ratio when I am looking at data. Even if it does require the use of some more pids. So if there is a way to set up the pids for AFR I would grasp it alot better. If not I can get the eq way of thinking, it will just take some doing.
My other question is in the calc_pids.text you are to change displacement. Well that is good if you only tune say a 5.7 for instance. My car has a 402 in it. My wifes GTO is a 6.0. I have guys with 5.3's, 5.7's, 6.0's ect.. that I end up doing stuff for. Since I am not "computer savvy" Is there a way to have a different set of stuff for different displacemnt so you dont have to change the file when you tune different stuff. I am sure that a problem would arise at time where you would start tuning something and realize that "I forgot to change that" I dont know how much difference it would make to the tuning you do, I am just asking some of the things that I thought of.
These are just a few of the thoughts I have had while kickin around the idea of Calc.Vet. I love calc.ve and I think this would be better from the standpoint of doing wot/pe stuff at the same time. (as long as your tune is close enough to go wot on the first run). I think you could acheive a cleaner ve table without having to filter some of the stuff you do in calc.ve
Hi Len:
Thanks for sharing. I thought you raised some interesting points. I also asked Joecar for assistance in calc_pids.txt questions and solutions. This forum is very lucky to have Joe. So, once again Joe..thanks for your help.
After your question, I did a quick WOT down a deserted country road.:grin:..I used the same PIDS I have posted on Page 1. Even though the 'BEN' is calculated using EQ, I am still able to log AFR. So, I don't think that will be an issue.
The filtering..I wish we did not have to do any. The best I can do is to perfect the CALC.VET Filter..but it is tough. You can even see on my log, that transitioning into PE Mode creates a few bad frames, along with WOT DFCO shifts.
I am pretty good at manually smoothing VE Tables, so I can either try to do a write-up or offer to do a few if asked. I prefer a relatively 'smooth' VE Table, with just the normal harmonics expected.
Thanks again for your candidness. We will get you some answers..
No problem Shawn.
I realize that you will never have a "perfect ve" but for some reason mine had high peaks down low and if I smoothed them the car ended up having a dead spot. So I left them alone. I am curious with starting over from a stock 02 tune and doing a bit better filtering what it will look like when I am done.
I know that you, Joe, and others that are more on the cutting edge of the "computer stuff" will figure out a way to make everything work. I and I am sure everybody else on this site appriciates all the time you guys put into figuring out this stuff because in the end we all reap the rewards of your work.
As an experiment log AFR and EQIVRATIO... say take a 10-20 minute log with various driving.
Look at those two pids on a chart...
set the chart range for those two pids as follows:
- AFR: min 10.63, max 18.63.
- EQIVRATIO: min 0.5, max 1.5.
When EQ 1.00 (AFR 14.63) is commanded, the lines will be overlap along the middle of the chart.
Take a closer look at where the commanded EQIVRATIO transitions or ripples... you will see that AFR sometimes stays static even tho EQIVRATIO shows a change... if you set the tunetool to view in EQ units, then using scantool->tunetool pid linking, you will see those changes matching up to the EQ values in the fuel tables.
i.e. the AFR pid isn't quite right sometimes.
So, my opinion is to use EQIVRATIO, and if you want to see AFR then use a pid which covertss EQIVRATIO to AFR (using the stoich AFR in B3601).
In the calc_pids.txt file, the displacement value of 5.669 can be replaced with displacement() making the calc_pids.txt file independent of the vehicle you're currently tuning;
then when you first open a log file, go Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options, and next to Engine enter the displacement in cc, click Ok, and save the log file...
e.g. for stock displacement LS1 you would enter 5669 next to Engine.
When you save the log file, the displacement is now permanently saved in this log file.
You can now proceed with the Calc.VET tutorial.
See attached calc_pids.txt file...
Also, sometime in the future, the scantool's builtin CALC.VE pid will be updated to look like the CALC.VEN pid you see in the attached file... (i.e. the CALC.VEN pid can be discarded since the builtin CALC.VE pid will be identical to it).
Len, when you get a chance post up your existing calc_pids.txt file. Are you Analog or Serial Wideband? If Analog, which one (brand name).
Then tell us exactly what you want to do (including your AFR request). Also tell us what your B3601 value is (stoich).
We can then re-work it and hopefully get it working..
Edit: Joecar is giving a hint of future improvements in the existing CALC.VE pids. Hopefully even simpler and better..
Yah, I like it to be simple :cheers:
I can post them up later today. (I will try anyway).
I am using the lm2 wideband and am serial. IMO the only way to do it.
The gas I usually run is our towns crappy 91. No E-10 in that. I end up filling there 95% of the time (only one gas station in our small town) Then wherever I am at I try to find non e-10 stuff if possible.
Good choice on Wideband and serial connection. Makes it very easy.
If you need help attaching calc_pids.txt, let us know. We can configure your AFR for E00
Is your B3601 14.63 or 14.68?
Can probably set up your calc_pids.txt with displacement and the other new features..and of course merge it with your existing file..
Here is my calc_text file, I think now that some of the stuff I was worried about loosing was added to my sae generic. Let me know if this isnt what you need. I will also attach a copy of my current tune. It is stock 02 for the most part. I have changed obviously the dtc enableres, copied over my old timinig tables and did some of the idle tutorial changes.
I threw in my 98 tune from last year if you wanted to look at my ve that I had
Len it looks like you calc_pids.txt file is empty..:confused:.
Thats O.K., but I am a little curious what you might have added to the sae.generic file. You see ironically that is the one that can change with a software upgrade.
So no danger of an overwrite..I would use the following attached calc_pids.txt.
When you call it up on your computer..under Tab File..Save As..My Documents..EFILive..User Configuration..calc_pids.txt. It will ask if you want to overwrite..Say yes..
I just ran Joecar's new calc_pids.txt and it works perfectly. Also you can easily change the displacement in the Log file and when you change the displacement the VE changes..I.E. it works!
So, we just need to add a Pid for your AFR for a B3601 of 14.629.
Also at some point we will need to talk you through the latest software/firmware updates or some of these Pids will not work the way you want them.
For grins I manually smoothed your 98 VE Table. Notice I left the 'camel back' dip at around 2000-2400 Rpm's. I have that too. Mainly altered in the lower Kpa's..
Thanks Shawn,
It looked to me like it was empty too. I will put the calc pids file in now.
The last update I did was last July or August
I see now in the scan tool where you can change displacement for each car. I remember looking at that when I first got the software, then never thought of it again. That is so neat, when you change that and are logging for my car with a 6.6 it will have the right equation for the calc pids. SWEET
The ve table that is peaky is the one titled New cam throttle cracker zero. I was messing around with some things after putting in a diff cam last fall to get rid of bucking. Totally zeroing the cracker table got rid of almost all of the buck this cam has. Take a look at that one and you will see what I am talking about
Len
Just copied the calc pids and opened up the scantool to see what was there. Got a error message that the CALC.LTFTBEN already exists. (sae generic) If I go to close the error message it closes the scantool. Should I go into the sae generic and delete that?
I would take it out of the sae.generic file.
Yea that last VE Table was a little peaky. I massaged it a bit, but you might just have to re-do it at some point. Normally at say 80-100 Kpa it should almost look like a Dyno curve.
I.E. peaks at max TQ (~4800) and slowly fall to redline.
I tried not to mess around with the Idle Cells..take a look at it. On a MAF-enabled car most of your Airflow will be MAF dominated..you can always do a SDCL Tune on an existing VE Table to clean it up. Thats my best interpretation.
Delete CALC.LTFTBEN from sae_generic.txt.
To enter the displacement, be sure to use Edit->Log File Information...
it won't work if you try to do it thru Customer Details.
I just deleted it from the generic text and it still wont let me into the tune tool or the scantool. I shut the computer down and restarted just to see. I will attach a copy of my generic text and the calc pids I copied this morning. Maybe you will see something I missed
Error code: ERR_DUPLICATE/109
Duplicate *PRN name: CALC.LTFTBEN.
This is the error that I get on opening either the scantool or the tune tool.
I will update it and see what happens. I assume the calc pids then will remain the same?? If not I can just copy them again. It is nice having everything here in this thread