Improving shifts via the ECM

Is there any reason to change/not change the torque models on a stock engine / trans?

anything new happening with this.

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Originally Posted by Y BE AVG

anything new happening with this.

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What do you mean? It works, very well in fact...

Sorry, this is what I was asking about. Trying to keep up to date. But you're right the torque models fixed a lot of problems we deal with on a daily basis.

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Originally Posted by GMPX

I should let you all know that there is a pretty major change to these torque table configurations coming which will mean if you have been scripting changes you will have to start again, the table configurations are changing.
I will shortly be in NZ working along side Paul on a few projects, one of them will be to plot the torque maps similar to how we do the Virtual VE's. However, at least for this trip there is no possibility of adding in the reverse calculations.
But the plan is what we can offer is a 3D plot of what the calculations will produce. We did some logging on Paul's car today (6.0L L98) and based on the numbers it was amazingly accurate.
So as another test I set up the calculation in Excel and punched in the numbers to match the L98's peak torque figure at 4,400 RPM from those in the torque model tables. I assumed a couple of things, timing (23 deg) airflow (860mg).
The L98's rated torque at 4,400RPM is 530Nm, the calculation produced 532Nm! If I dropped the timing back to 10deg it calculated out 436, upped it to a knock producing 30deg it only went up to 548Nm.
It's really fascinating playing around with the numbers and seeing the results, should be a lot of fun once it's implemented, but for the new ECM's (E39, E78 etc) pretty important.

It will be very tricky with the variable cam engines, it may take a few software revisions to get the operational side of this ideal based on everyone's feedback.

http://download.efilive.com/Staff/GMPX/TrqMdlCalc.png

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Originally Posted by GMPX

On the V6 it might be a little tricky because you have the cam phasing to deal with too, each column is very different, unfortunately just adding percentages on the E39 doesn't always work. The other thing is these tables on the E39 will change the throttle response.

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So I am working on my E39A / T76 combo and it has variable intake and exhaust cams. Where can I read up on how exactly it affects throttle response and how to get it dialed in? I would LOVE to get it shifting like it did on my E78 Cruze (really good)!

I noticed something weird while tuning GMC Sierra 2500HD 2013
when increasing the tables in torque model by any value it will limit the TB opening while WOT to 61%
I'm logging ETCT and it was fine before adding to the Torque model
Any thoughts ?

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Originally Posted by wesam

I noticed something weird while tuning GMC Sierra 2500HD 2013
when increasing the tables in torque model by any value it will limit the TB opening while WOT to 61%
I'm logging ETCT and it was fine before adding to the Torque model
Any thoughts ?

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What ECM, E78? Have you raised the TQ limits? Remember the newer ECMs try to meet the desired TQ value, if they hit it then they will limit throttle, boost, and so on. If you've raised the torque model to match that of the engine, you need to make sure the TQ limits are above that otherwise it will act as a "master" limiter.

Yes E78 ECM
And yes I raised all torque limits in ECM
but dis not raise the torque limits in TCM
what tables in E78 do you suggest to raise ?

You'd have to post both files for me to check, but I know in the E78 you should look at B8801-B8804, B8300-B8303, B7017. However, it appears that not all the TQ tables are there, HPT has a few more TQ related tables that might be coming into play.

Try modifying the TCM as well, the TCM might be asking the ECM to limit power if it's limits are being met.

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Originally Posted by ScarabEpic22

You'd have to post both files for me to check, but I know in the E78 you should look at B8801-B8804, B8300-B8303, B7017. However, it appears that not all the TQ tables are there, HPT has a few more TQ related tables that might be coming into play.

Try modifying the TCM as well, the TCM might be asking the ECM to limit power if it's limits are being met.

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All those tables are set to Max but it seems there is tables not mapped yet in EFI Live for the E78
I hope to get more support for this ECM soon

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Originally Posted by ScarabEpic22

Try modifying the TCM as well, the TCM might be asking the ECM to limit power if it's limits are being met.

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This is precisely why I need support for my T76 please please please. I have a passenger in my race car that says "slow down, slow down" (TCM)

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Originally Posted by Boost

This is precisely why I need support for my T76 please please please. I have a passenger in my race car that says "slow down, slow down" (TCM)

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Additional TCM support (T76, T43) isn't even on our radar until at least after the first quarter of 2014 sorry. Too many other projects sit ahead of them in the development list.

Cheers
Cindy

Bummer. I'll just have to hope time flies until then. I really need it and can't wait. But thanks for the update and I'll be hoping for the best!

Hi I am looking for someone who knows what the table needs to look like to work right with 6L90 and e 38 controller.

Trial and error I'm afraid, log the torque PID from the ECM to make sure your changes are going in the right direction. Re-read this thread (I know it's very long) but there is a lot of discussions in this thread from people trying to tweak the torque tables.
If you are still a little lost then maybe give a some more details on the engine combo, what has been done, how is the trans behaving.

its gm 6 liter and 6L90 transmission
when going uphill when you press the gas the vehicle is running like reving but the transmission is not shifting until you release the foot off the pedal
I don't know if this would cause any transmission to burn the clutches or stuff like that

If the trans is slipping then there is an internal hydraulic/mechanical problem.


Otherwise the shift tables must obey relative relationships (if they don't then they may be inhibiting particular shifts)...

for example, the 3->4 upshift table must be above the 4->3 downshift table (by at least a few MPH), and must also obey the engine RPM limit.


Not shifting due to hitting the engine RPM limit should not cause trans problems, but may sometimes cause engine valvetrain problems (depending on situation).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

I should let you all know that there is a pretty major change to these torque table configurations coming which will mean if you have been scripting changes you will have to start again, the table configurations are changing.
I will shortly be in NZ working along side Paul on a few projects, one of them will be to plot the torque maps similar to how we do the Virtual VE's. However, at least for this trip there is no possibility of adding in the reverse calculations.
But the plan is what we can offer is a 3D plot of what the calculations will produce. We did some logging on Paul's car today (6.0L L98) and based on the numbers it was amazingly accurate.
So as another test I set up the calculation in Excel and punched in the numbers to match the L98's peak torque figure at 4,400 RPM from those in the torque model tables. I assumed a couple of things, timing (23 deg) airflow (860mg).
The L98's rated torque at 4,400RPM is 530Nm, the calculation produced 532Nm! If I dropped the timing back to 10deg it calculated out 436, upped it to a knock producing 30deg it only went up to 548Nm.
It's really fascinating playing around with the numbers and seeing the results, should be a lot of fun once it's implemented, but for the new ECM's (E39, E78 etc) pretty important.

It will be very tricky with the variable cam engines, it may take a few software revisions to get the operational side of this ideal based on everyone's feedback.

http://download.efilive.com/Staff/GMPX/TrqMdlCalc.png

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GMPX, was there any updates on this spreadsheet or calculation to the program? Or could you run some numbers in it for me for the e83 controller?

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Tre-Cool

GMPX, was there any updates on this spreadsheet or calculation to the program? Or could you run some numbers in it for me for the e83 controller?

Cheers

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The answers are No, No and No :rotflmao:

Spreadsheet hasn't been touched.
The calculation program is not going in to V7.5, it will be in V8.
Sorry, don't have time to do the numbers for you.

:bash::throw:

So its a new year. Any further progress with t43 calibrations? I would be extremely happy if I could get the gear pressure stuff in the adaptive learning area like we have in the early models for the 24256125 OS.

It's a series 2 VE commodore.

T43 has not been looked at, there has been five other GM controllers we've been working on.

http://download.efilive.com/Staff/GMPX/TrqMdlCalc.png

Hello! I try to make changes to these tables on E39, steps 1 and 3 I understand how to count. Please tell me how you calculated steps 2,4,5,6,7. I explained to ask because I'm afraid to make a mistake and go the wrong way. I really important is your answer!

Any body tried this with the new 8 speed transmissions ?
Will this still work the same way ?

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Originally Posted by Jason S.

As I have been digging trying to find a definite answer on reducing the amount of torque reduction on the shifts ( I see as much as 40+ degrees on the shifts on the E67/T43 CTS-V), it seems that no one really knows how to adjust it. It was asked on a couple of occasions which of the torque tables apply for a non adjustable cam in the LSA, with no clear response. Just 'the tables mentioned in this thread'. Well no specific tables have been called out. I am assuming that it is ALL of the tables listed under Normal fuel Exhaust CAM 0 Degrees, but haven't seen actual clarification. Also B5156 lists maximum spark retard for knock, torque reduction etc... which CLEARLY isn't an accurate description because my table is set to a maximum of -20 and I am seeing over 40 taken out. Would it be that difficult to list the tables and options SPECIFICALLY related to these changes by their table numbers?

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So, I'm having this very similar issue!
I'm wondering if anyone has figured out what was causing the issue?

I posted up in another thread:
https://forum.efilive.com/showthread...io-vs-RPM-quot

But I have a 2013 ZL1 doing the EXACT same thing. Just pulling TONS of timing out of the engine and causing some weird issue's when upshifting.

Anybody have any ideas? Where to look?

I've tried a couple of the things that were discussed in this thread, but I'm still having the issue.

I'm still mulling over your files in the other thread, but I do welcome any more info any anyone has to share :cheers:

I've sent him an email with a tune from my own car's tcm. It still runs stock TM and shifts great and doesn't have the large timing swing.

It's a smooth shift on light/part throttle and firm/quick at wot. A lot of the fine tuning comes down to tuning the preset adapts and shift time modifiers.

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Originally Posted by wesam

Any body tried this with the new 8 speed transmissions ?
Will this still work the same way ?

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This.

So thread dig & mostly aimed at GMPX.

Has the torque calculation stuff for the trans been added in the V8 software.
if not, ETA on being able to see it.

Either way any chance of getting a copy of spreadsheet to play with, since we have been patiently waiting all these years. :-)

I've looked at my tune with HPT's "virtual torque" map and in typical fashion there shit doesn't work/calculate properly to what i log. lol

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Originally Posted by Tre-Cool

So thread dig & mostly aimed at GMPX.

Has the torque calculation stuff for the trans been added in the V8 software.

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No it hasn't.

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Originally Posted by Tre-Cool

if not, ETA on being able to see it.

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Wasn't even on the 'to do' list :music_whistling_1:

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Originally Posted by Tre-Cool

Either way any chance of getting a copy of spreadsheet to play with, since we have been patiently waiting all these years. :-)

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I can't find it on my current PC, it'll be on a back up somewhere but I'm not going to go spend hours looking sorry.

Hi, old thread I know, but have a couple of questions, please bare with me if anyone looks at this.

It was asked earlier on page 13, Will these help, or is there any risk to doing this on a vurtually stock E38/T43 on an 07 Escalade 6.2 non VVT/6L80E?

My tables dont look near as smooth as the OP's tables? I am assuming that is a tuned table prior to the OP's post not a result of this adjustment. I.E. his is smooth, and I can see the 5% increase in the tables. Mine is jagged and all over the place. I am experiencing some of the issues on my trans as it seems squishi, and at times, when turning a corner, I can feel the trans holding a gear, and then finally downshifting. Other than basic adjustments for tires size, speedo, a little MAF Tuning to bring it into spec, is all that has been adjusted so far, so these tables are still stock in my rom.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

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Originally Posted by raceghost

Hi, old thread I know, but have a couple of questions, please bare with me if anyone looks at this.

It was asked earlier on page 13, Will these help, or is there any risk to doing this on a virtually stock E38/T43 on an 07 Escalade 6.2 non VVT/6L80E?

My tables dont look near as smooth as the OP's tables? I am assuming that is a tuned table prior to the OP's post not a result of this adjustment. I.E. his is smooth, and I can see the 5% increase in the tables. Mine is jagged and all over the place. I am experiencing some of the issues on my trans as it seems squishi, and at times, when turning a corner, I can feel the trans holding a gear, and then finally downshifting. Other than basic adjustments for tires size, speedo, a little MAF Tuning to bring it into spec, is all that has been adjusted so far, so these tables are still stock in my rom.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

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Well, after a lot of digging and comparison, I have answered my own question. I hope this will help all of you, and OP, you may want to add this to your original post. I have tried this with great success.

First: Fact, All Truck/SUV 2006~2014 6.2L w/E38 controller, and 6l80E w/T43 controllers, are mechanically the same. All Gm part numbers within these years are interchangeable. I verified this with multiple GM dealers and Part Departments. What is different is programming within the ECM and TCM respectively.

Second: Respectfully, with these specific tables dealing with Torque Model's for shifting handshake to the TCM from ECM are scaled different. From what I have found, the 06~08 tables are referenced as old in the OP's post, and the 09~14 are referenced as the new tables. What if I told you they were the same tables, just labeled differently and scaled differently... However, I have tested by form of copy, and then smoothed the new tables from an 09 E38 into my 07 E38. Truck became a whole new ride, shifting smoother than butter and no more 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 1st stutter that nothing else could fix. Like when I would turn a corner, even though I tuned the transmission, ever so often it would feel like it was in neutral even though it was down shifting from 2nd to 1st, then deciding if it wanted to take 2nd or 1st again. Very annoying, as well as hard shifting every so often with 2nd to 3rd gear normal daily driving. My ECM/TCM has all updates applied by me at a GM dealer, meaning, I actually did the programming using their tools. It's good to haver friends, lol. Either way, I digress.

So with the above info, within post one you have "Old" and "New" tables, here is the association to each other:

Coefficient Table A1 [RPM_Airflow] ---> Coefficient Table A20 [RPM_Airflow]
Coefficient Table A2 [RPM_RPM] ---> Coefficient Table A21 [RPM_RPM]
Coefficient Table A3 [RPM_Spark] ---> Coefficient Table A22 [RPM_Spark]
Coefficient Table A4 [RPM_Spark2] ---> Coefficient Table A23 [RPM_Spark Sq]
Coefficient Table A5 [RPM_Spark_Airflow] ---> Coefficient Table A24 [RPM_Spark_Airflow]
Coefficient Table A6 [RPM_Spark2_Airflow] ---> Coefficient Table A25 [RPM_Spark Sq_Airflow]
Coefficient Table A7 [RPM_Map] ---> Coefficient Table A30 [Map_Map]
Coefficient Table A8 [RPM_Spark_Map] ---> Coefficient Table A28 [Map_Spark_Map]
Coefficient Table A9 [RPM_Spark2_Map] ---> Coefficient Table A29 [Map_Spark Sq_Map]
Coefficient Table A10 [Map_RPM] ---> Coefficient Table A31 [Map_RPM]
Coefficient Table A11 [Map_Spark] ---> Coefficient Table A26 [Map_Spark]
Coefficient Table A12 [Map_Spark2] ---> Coefficient Table A27 [Map_Spark2]

You will note that the "old" tables are scaled with 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 columns.
You will note that the "new" tables are scaled with 0, 5, 12.5, 20, and 25 columsn.
You will not that the "old" tables have a 0 row, and a 6400 row.
You will note that the "new" tables do not have these two rows.

Adjust accordingly with steps below

Ok, once you study them, and come to your own discovery, you can move on to this next part, which is how to get the 09+ tables into your 06~08 GM Rom. If you compare the data within these tables between the "old" and "new" you will see they are identical, at least in my case, just in different columns and cells.

So, what I did was Highlight Columns 20-30 and Rows 0-6400 and then pasted them in 15-25 Columns, essentially shifting all the cells left 1 column, and then leave 30 column alone.

Next take columns 5 and 10, copy and paste or shift all rows into the 0-5 columns.

Now Highlight the 5-15 columns and rows, and use the Green Left to right Arrow "Fill cells with linear data from left to right" This will auto fill the 10 column.

Now look at both roms, and you will see the new shape in the graph of the "old" rom tables looks identical to the "new" rom tables graph.

Below are (3) ECM Roms. For comparison of how the tables look stock, look within the 1st and 2nd rom. If you wish to see what it looks like completed, look to the Rom Labeled BossHog.mario.Tune1.1.12.29.20.... Again this is a fully stock 2007 Cadillac Escalade EXT. Intake and Exhaust are the only mods that relate to Engine, and it only has roughly 8K miles on it.

Your welcome.

raceghost,

Thanks for posting your findings, I appreciate that this is tedious work, good job :cheers:

Also, in addition, make sure that none of the VSS/TPS shift table curves cross each other anywhere (look at them all together).

And, you might want to set all the Throttle Downshift tables to 100% everywhere to avoid conflicts with the VSS/TPS shift tables.

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Originally Posted by GMPX

No it hasn't.


Wasn't even on the 'to do' list :music_whistling_1:


I can't find it on my current PC, it'll be on a back up somewhere but I'm not going to go spend hours looking sorry.

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Sorry to dig up an old thread, but was the spreadsheet found and available?