LC-1 widband hook up

Just recieved my new lc-1 from innovate. Old one quit, sent it to them for repair and got a new one in the mail at no charge. Here are some pics before a put it in the truck seem correct to yall?

I soldered the green blue white and one side of the monetary switch together. ground.

I need to add another wire from my ground above to the V2.

I soldered the other side of the led and momentary switch to the small black wire.

red will go to power.

yellow to V2.

brown to nothing.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6468/img0567co.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/69/img0565xo.jpg

Wes

Does it work when you power it up...?

I have not powered it up.

I do a bench test (connect to power) before installing, make sure LED indicates correct operation... blow on sensor (or run propane torch on it) and note change in reported AFR.

Installed lc1 today. Went through the new install procedures, everything seems to work ok except I still have my original problem.

log works reads ~14.6
efi live reads ~20.5



Wes

Are you using serial or analog connection?
Have you selected the proper PIDs?

I am using the autove pid selection.

I believe its analog. From the 2.5mm out jack on the lc1 I have a 2.5mm to something adapter, then a something adapter to usb. and I have the yellow wire to A1+ and ground to A1-

Did you program the analog output and select the fuel type in Logworks?
The yellow wire is not pre-programmed to match the analog PID for the LC-1,
the brown wire is.

I did program for log works.
I will go switch the yellow for brown and report back in a moment.

Swapped yellow for brown, still did not read the same but it was closer. Would a taq cable benefit me?

Serial to V2 is superior to analog.
It shouldn't be that far off tho.

I went to an exhaust shop today to have the bung welded in, well great to know the 4.2L I6 exhaust is tucked so close to the engine and frame theres no way to weld the dang bung in. So instead Ill be pulling the front nbo2 and wiring my LC1 to mimick it, hope I dont need to work with LogWorks3, no laptop with a serial port in my area I can borrow. Might have to get a serial to usb converter.

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Originally Posted by W_D_R

Installed lc1 today. Went through the new install procedures, everything seems to work ok except I still have my original problem.

log works reads ~14.6
efi live reads ~20.5



Wes

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Updated firmware software and now afr is reading the the same.

How is LC-1 wired to gauge...?
How is LC-1 wired to FlashScan V2...?

What V:AFR range is the gauge expecting...?

Are you using the pid AFR_LC11 or AFR_LC12 in EFILive scantool...?

Can you post screenshots of the LM Programmer software pages for programming V:AFR for Analog 1 and Analog 2.

Is it safe to do the free air calibration via the v2 if I have the latest software updates??

Yes.

Are you at V7.5.6.126, V8.1.2.106 and V2 firmware 2.6.36...?

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Originally Posted by GMPX

I 'think' one of the problems is the O2 inputs to the PCM are kinda 'floating' (I might be wrong), but they are not just a simple GND and signal input. The 'Lo' side of the NBO2 output is not tied directly to GND.
Most of the simulated O2 outputs don't account for that, this can cause problems.

Cheers,
Ross

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Very old post I know, I followed the NB simulated method in this thread connecting my LC-1 to the PCM through the stock connector using heater and heater ground connection.

Your above comment, was this ever confirmed as correct or not an issue?




I'm reviewing my installation as read else wear that the LC-1 when set up correctly has a T63 response of 17ms using anologue instant setting, second only to the new AEM x series which uses CAN bus. If you have an older PCM like an E40 like I do better stay with LC-1s I think with added benefit of simulated NB out, LC-2's are very slow👎🏼

Here is a Q&A with Dr.Mike on HPT about response times

Q: I have an E40, pre-CANbus, EFILive FSV2 and two LC-1's, using stream fast mode with 24 pids I can log at 10 frames a second / 10hz. Serial and annologue inputs are polled at the same rate. The LC-1 serial out is 12hz or anologue out is instant, 1/12, 1/6 or 1/3 with offset compensation, serial is better because FSV2 can only poll 10hz?

A: As far as I know, only the HPTuners MPVI can log CANBus data simultaneously with pre-CAN protocols like J1850, etc.

Q: I read that you have said the aem has T63 time ~10ms and the Lc-1 ~20ms, if I am correct, this is response time between the sensor and the aem gauge / LC-1 controller.

A: That is the time it takes for the sensor and controller, together, to get to 63% of the proper reading. For example, if lambda suddenly went from 1.00 to 2.00, the t63 time is how long it takes for the reading to catch up and get to lambda 1.63 . It takes about 2 and a half times as long to get to 90% ( Lambda 1.90 ) etc.

From my own measurements, the 30-0300 is about 10ms and the LC-1 is around 17ms for t63. The independent lab included the solenoid opening time in their measurements, which adds about 10ms to all of the units tested. Which seems to work out about right.

What I, and some others here, have found is that there is much to be gained by logging at higher polling rates. Specifically, with the 30-0300, 100Hz works especially well. I'm pretty sure this is because of what I call "cell velocity". This is the rate at which changes in RPM and manifold pressure cause the current "cell" of the VE map to change. If the current cell changes 30 times a second, then lambda data from 100ms ( @10Hz ) ago can be 2 or 3 cells off.


Q: The question I'm trying to answer is what I have already optimum with the E40 PCM, or whether I could consider upgrading to two aem and HPT MPVI to log 24 pids at higher than 10hz, I think I read elsewhere that the MPVI can poll 100 Hz or would I still be limited to 10 Hz of the class 2 network of the PCM? Can you connect two aem to the CANbus?

A: I think the polling rates are independent, per channel. But, obviously, the ECU limit still applies for those channels.

Yes. Multiple AEM gauges can connect to the CAN bus. Specifically, this would be th 30-0333 version of the AEM gauge ( OBDII version ). Depending on your setup, you may need to add in a terminating resistor ( 68ohm ). But, that should be easy

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Here is a post by Dr.MIke in 2014, which makes me want to refresh my connection method using individual heavy duty heater and ground cables, I want to utilise the PCM heater and ground for a relay to the heavy duty supply

Currently, the only wideband with a fast enough response time to pick out individual cylinder measurements from a collector is the old LC-1. Nothing else is close, INCLUDING the LC-2. And, I tried just about everything. Setting up an LC-1 to be "clean" enough to do it is a bit of a trick. Innovate controllers are very sensitive to power supply and ground noise; INCLUDING the noise that they make themselves with the heater drive. The older LC-1 with the extra green signal ground wires work best.

Innovate will tell you about grounding to the block or the battery terminal. But, they neglect to mention that you need to run HEAVY wire; 16-gauge minimum. AND that you need to do the same with the +12v power line. The heater current pulses on an LC-1 are about 1.75A . So, that is 1.75mv of ground noise AND 12v rail noise per milliohm of wire.

12g wire is about 1.5millioms per foot. 18g which most people seem to use for this is 6.5milliohms/foot ! So, if you have 10 feet of 18g ground wire, you get over 100mv of noise on the ground rail. The same thing happens on the +12v side. This confuses the LC-1 and adds noise to the output.

To get the response that I did, I cut the LC-1 harness wires at about 6" from the controller. I ran short 12g power/ground lines and ran a 3.3ohm resistor inline with the white ground wire and a 10uf cap between the 12v and the ground side of the resistor. I connected the scope across the yellow and green wires. Connecting between the yellow and the controller side of the resistor on the white wire worked almost as well.

The system was easily able to resolve per-cylinder AFR values at idle. This is what I was looking for to adjust the 12 idle screws. At about 2000rpm you could see differences but not full values. at 3000rpm is where it lost the ability to discern differences. Also, by 3000rpm, the mains were starting to come on.


Did anyone else come across this advise? need more to go on to order these resisters and capacitors

Is Dr.Mike on this forum, under another name?

On some PCM's (e.g. 1999-2002 F-car, Y-car) the NBO2 "Lo" is not grounded outside the PCM (i.e. sort of floating)... in this case you want to connect it.


On other PCM's (e.g. various trucks) the NBO2 "Lo" is grounded outside the PCM, and you don't need to connect it (but you can).

Quote:

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The older LC-1 with the extra green signal ground wires work best.

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I had figured this out... but I had not run across the rest of Dr.Mike's advise... I'm going to try the resistor/capacitor.

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Originally Posted by joecar

I had figured this out... but I had not run across the rest of Dr.Mike's advise... I'm going to try the resistor/capacitor.

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If you can share the details of the source for resister and capacitor you use id be grateful, i had a look online but not sure exactly what to order?

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Originally Posted by Gelf VXR

If you can share the details of the source for resister and capacitor you use id be grateful, i had a look online but not sure exactly what to order?

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I would probably try a 3.3ohm 1/4W carbon film resistor and a 10uF multilayer ceramic capacitor.

For example:
cap
res

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joecar

For example:
cap
res

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Great, thats exactly what im looking for :)

Hi Joe, Ive got to re order the caps as i have lost them, there out of stock til end of the year thou, can i use an electrolytic capacitor instead, whats the difference in this application?

Ive got two LC-1's, one has the green wire, the other is without, so i want to wire them both the same using the cap and resister on the white wire.

You could also use tantalum caps.


You could use electrolytic caps but they have a bigger size (won't tuck so nicely into wire harness).