So I've got 4725 in here...what should I change it to ? Add 2%? 3%?Quote:
Originally Posted by ringram
Does this setting affect anything else?
Mike
I've gone 5% increase and try that tomorrow on cold start.
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So I've got 4725 in here...what should I change it to ? Add 2%? 3%?Quote:
Originally Posted by ringram
Does this setting affect anything else?
Mike
I've gone 5% increase and try that tomorrow on cold start.
Attachment 10761
Making b1650 smaller opened the throttle further :) I lowered it 5% to 4488.8 and the tps opened up to 21.2% where previously it only opened to 20.4% . this gave me a near perfect cold start and target idle 950 rpm met with about 26 deg timing instead of about 34 !
awesume!
Next day:
Went -10% B1650 to 4252 and tried it today and got a high starting flare to 1700rpm and a tps of 21.6% cold engine. I also increased 1651/52 to 4.5 & 4 incase this was holding the throttle from opening past a certain "point"
The extra 5% decrease on B1650 only increased the TPS from 21.2 to 21.6% so I'm going to increase B1651/52 to 5.5 & 5 (raising the hard limit) and see if the TPS opens a bit more.
B1650 obviously affects other tables such as cranking idle air as it now flares badly on startup. Timing now down to an average of 26deg cold engine idle.....
Interesting stuff really....
Does anyone have any theories on what is the difference between B1701 and B1650 please?
When you reverse calculate B1701 you end up with a throttle diameter or 102mm which I believe is what we have in the VE Holden V8s.....B1650 however is another story...
Mike
Set b1650 at -15% from original to 4016 and now getting 22% throttle cold start with even lower timing of about 22 deg. In gear drive hot or cold now ticks along beautifully at 800rpm as the throttle is open further vand the timing not over advancing trying to meet target. The other interesting thing is that starting at any temp now flares to 1700rpm BUT I believe this is becuase the throttle max opening has been increased allowing the throttle to open further on starting. Just my observations......Will adjust B1832 down by 5-10% or so and see how it goes
I've not fully worked out the {B1650} vs. {B1701} relationship yet.
As you say, {B1701} indicates a 102mm dia throttle, but that's not actually the one in use on the VE. The lead in to the TB might be close to this, but the actual blade is much smaller. The specs say the vE runs a 90mm TB, but I'd say the blade is smaller still.
If you use the stock values of {B1650}, you get a TB diameter of 77.5mm, which is about what I'd guess it would actually be.
Why two tables with different values?
I believe the labels given for these are taken from the GM documents, so don't always read well when you don't have the full documentation. They need some context to really be understood. The only difference between the two is that {B1701} adds the term, "effective"....
where as {B1650} doesn't use the term.Quote:
Maximum effective throttle area of the ETC in square millimeters.
So I would assume that {B1650} is the literal setting for the TB size and is used by the ECM to calculate how much throttle opening is needed to supply a specific airflow. {B1701} is then possibly used as a correction factor, as there are times when the airflow may not match the expected flows. For example, peaks in the airflow may be at a level that match a bigger TB.
Still working on a full understanding.......
Simon
Attachment 10766new cold to hot log
this is my new cold to hot idle log with 22% max tps now with 22deg ave spark. smooth as silk now and you can tap it into gear and it just drives off like standard VE Holden :)
The rest of the log shows in gear and out of gear with the spark and tps adjustments that the ECu makes. I also dialed back cranking idle air and the 1700rpm flare is goneburger.
:grin::grin::grin::grin:
Also today with all this testing the ecu logged a p0606 code which apparently is not good. When this happened the start was very "saggy" and I had been doing a few start tests to sort the start flareup.... The water pump for the supercharger I/C also stays going if you leave the key "on"
Suspecting low voltage causing this to trigger I logged this time with ECU Voltage pid. It seems it takes 7sec after startup for the ECU to report that its got 14.8volts, infact it stays on 11.4V for 4 seconds!...Is this normal ? Never checked it before so I wouldn't know...What do you think? This would be much worst if you had just been doing startup testing a few times so this may have been the problem
Battery voltage is all controlled by the ECU on the VE's. Mine can take a while before it all kicks in. I think it calculates charge rates and battery percentages during this time....Quote:
Originally Posted by The Alchemist
Attachment 10767
heres a log I did today showing a start then instant stop followed in 10sec by a start and everything OK. Logging batt and ECU voltage shows the voltage dropping to "0" just as it starts causing the engine to fall over.
Discussing this with the owner revealed that "yes" it does this every now and then especially after a short stop over into a shop or at the petrol station, but had never mentioned it to me .....
Something strange happening here...I'm going to check the charging and starting system tomorrow
Another convert ;)
Yes the B1650 setting seems to affect anything that happens when you drop throttle pedal to zero. So coast down, idle, transition, as well as startup etc.
Not too sure about that one, but I don't think it's tune related.
Back on to {B1650} and {B1701}. I did some testing over the past week and set these both back to stock. I have a 220/224 cam, so nothing too big and it did idle fine when hot and cold. However, on a dead cold start, it would fire and almost stall straight after firing.
Example of near stall here
This is where these tables really come in to play as I think they may influence the crank to idle air flow blending as well. I then pulled 5% from each table and the stall nearly disappeared completely, so I'm going to pull another 5% and leave it at that.
So my advice would be for anyone that is doing cold start tuning, to drop these tables to aid is stability between crank and idle as well as cold idle airflow control. Suggested starting amounts would be,
For a hot idle min air flow of...
[list][*]5gm/S to 6gm/S: leave stock[*]6gm/S to 9gm/S: -5% to -10%[*]9gm/S to 15gm/S: -10% to -20%
[list]
The Alchemist has given us a good guide to dial the values in for fine tuning. Simply log the TPS% and watch how far it moves. Then use the idle spark technique mentioned earlier in this thread to fine tune the air flow.
Simon.
Re: my starting issue falling over etc etc I removed that battery today and had it tested and its only doing 200amps at 9Volts
:( so am fully charging it on a 7 stage charger and retesting in 24hrs otherwise new battery time!
"Fully charged" at 50% CCA 7.2 Volts at 20deg C.......DEAD BATTERY OMG !
Fitting a new one tomorrow and will retest cold start and see what the voltage does this time . Am also taking it to Holden Dealer to get latest BCM flash so the charge routine is up to date! Explains a lot :)
ok update on battery: al good now with correct charging and excellent starting now with 11.8V showing just after startup instead of about 11.2 and completely repeatable.
Update on B1650:
DON"T change this from standard as it seems to create a conflict with something else in the tables (maybe ones we can't see) and flags P0606 and reduced power mode in certain circumstances and driving conditions.
It does make the throttle open further which is great for cold starting and in gear stuff BUT this P0606 popped up as I was sitting there engine off but key on testing starting etc...I pumped the throttle to 100% somewhat absent mindidly and up came the ECL with this code....WTF !
I cleared the code and repeated this and it did it again !It also only reported about 36% tps even though I had my foot to the floor....stressing after reading what the code description said I did some research and came up with these links :
http://hsv-gts.ls2.com/0506GTODTC/DTC%20P060D.pdf
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...t=31670&page=2
all pointing to a conflict of some sort with the TAC ...
I decided to flash B1650 back to normal and retry this test. This time 100% throttle got the 88.2% TPS that I wanted :) and no fault code popping up ! Whew.
logs of fault and with it "fixed"
In the fault recorded one go right to the end to see it, I also logged GM.CPUFAULT as per Blacky's suggestion to get a special number that he can check..in this case "22".
I guess I'll find out what this means tomorrow.
Seems a little strange as a few have altered that table with no issues.
The code you threw was a P0606, not a P060D, so some of the info is not quite right. Maybe there is another issue that is compounding the problem, possibly due to the relocation of the TB. It may be that the log data you have is actually showing the problem that is causing the code, not the result of the problem occuring?
Simon
http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/SK..._DTC_P0606.pdf
and this sorry Simon .....have a read.
This points to a TAC problem, but maybe the 36% throttle is a result of the reduced power mode kicking in though once it was triggered. Strange how the engine wasn't running and it triggered the moment I touched the throttle. Also the ECU voltage drops out to zero as I move the throttle but stops doing this after 3 tps movements...
srry, double post.....
Thanks for the input Mike, what kind of pcv system do you have on the car? L98 valley cover style or LS3. You could go back to a L76 style and draw the air from the passenger side rear rocker cover thru a oil/air seperator with a one way valve(so it does not pressurise the engine). This will allow the engine to actually draw more air in thru the motor , I had my L98 setup like this when it was blown. I had to reduce min idle airflow to compensate for it quite a bit. The LS3 has the small restrictor which does not add much to airflow to the motor. Just a suggestion. I know some tuners alter B1650. I have never tried it my main concern was that it may not get full throttle?
Joel
E38 Idle question, B1651 and B1652 those seem to be the max limit the ecm can open the throttle body at idle, but what does the area 1 and area 2 difference in tables is one in gear and the other park neutral? And in B1650 i have seen some stock tunes that use a larger area here i don't understand unless there was a larger throttle body?
The way I read those is...
- {B1651}: Maximum rolling idle area. IE. the maximum opening % that the ECM can command when the car is moving.
- {B1652}: Maximum stationary idle area. IE. when the car is not moving at all.
{B1650} seems to let the ECM know how big the TB is, which is then used to help work out what amount of opening is required for a given air flow. It's not a hard and fast rule to match the actual WOT volume here, in fact some deliberately set this low to help with cammed cars. I've gone as far as setting this to 3600 with no adverse effects, but I'm not sure how far you can take it.
Simon
Thank you swing it does not say in my efilive that good of a description about rolling and stationary, i kept moving min idle air and the tbody wasn't opening any more so i played with those tables and it opened more which really started to bring the idle up which is what i needed. But was un clear about idle or moving.
Yes, it took a bit to work that out. I actually reduced {B1651} quite a lot, down to around 1% for testing. I found that when cold, the rolling idle would drop a lot, then pick up as the car stopped.
Odd i increased the tables and still its hard to start cold takes a few tries but i haven't had much time to play with that while it was reduced the tbody wasn't open near enough to get the idle to the commanded
As already mentioned, try....
Reducing: {B1650} and {B1701} by 20%
Increasing: {B1832} by 10%
Simon.
I did get an ETC code and have to adjust airflow vs tps or whatever table.
But I have many more cubes behind it. I definitely need B1650 otherwise things are bad with cold starts etc.
Attachment 12804
Hi guys , another cold start idle issue to address so I thought this would be the best place to post.
VE Holden L77 engine with AFM delete kit and a big LS3 cam 235+ duration 600 thou lift, full exhuast, FAST manifold etc etc. You know, one of those "just a tunes" :)
Problem: Cold start is fine (learnt a whole lot since my last posts on this topic !!! ) but the commanded AFR is 9.98:1 and commanded lambda 0.688 so the car runs very rich pulse width 6ms!! with horrible surging as a result. I'm running similar IVT open loop tables to other cammed VE's and have never seen this problem before.
At exactly 40seconds after 1st startup (done 4 cold starts logged and measured) the commanded AFR & Lambda suddenly jumps vertically to 12.8:1 & 0.881 respectively and the pulse width drops to 3.8ms and the car idles beautifully. At the change point the IVT is at 50deg and the ECT is at 35deg. I even dropped the IVT open loop B0146 table flat from 56deg backwards and it made no difference to commanded AFR/Lambda. It only occurs from dead cold, if you stop the engine just after the switch point and restart the commanded appears normal around 12.8:1. No other problems during warm up and the car runs great etc etc. One of the first things I did was check LTFT's which are turned off but these read "0" as I had done a fuel reset as a matter or course.
O/S 12647991 Calib 12647990 2012 VE Holden.
Any suggestions fellas? I'm really stuck here.....
Hi bud, I did a L77 lifter swap 236-242 cam 11.8:1 a few months back. I must admit I have never had this pulsewidth issue. I also am unsure how you setup the open loop tables are B0141-144 all the same? try setting them all to 1.00s if u havent done it and B0147 to 1.00 and just use B0146 to change commanded fueling if you have already done this just to test, use completely stock open loop tables. See how it responds then try using all 1.00s in B0146. To be honest this car has completely stock open loop tables and dynamics and cold start drivability is awesome, not to smelly at idle cold start either which is typical of more overlap and metal cats. As far as idle tuning I still do the same things and it still works I have tried other methods and had some good results but have all charts written up now and always get them close within a couple of flashes. Try and finess the VVE as much as you can i find if it is autocorrectly to many cells after you have made changes close the tune and reopen and then make changes try it and see what happens. I also built tuned a 408 and runs a 250s cam it runs like a baby dead cold certainly makes life a lot easier to drivability tune with a 4.00 inch crank in there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Alchemist
Hmmmm.... It's interesting what you say about the 40 seconds.... Has anyone else seen the 40 seconds thing? I've always seen that
there IS some timer and there IS a noticeable change when that timer expires.... Can't quite put my finger on it, but I would love to
hear from anyone who has seen this or knows more about it.....
Chuck CoW
yup thats exactly how I do it Hymey :) Its like theres and after start enrichment table that expires after 40 secs that we don't have access to????? will try setting B0146 all to "1" and see how she goes today. thanks for your support.
Attachment 12807Attachment 12808
THIS IS THE COLD START , AND A DRIVE TO WORK, with b0146 set all to "1" as well as the b0147 b0148.
as you can see something is commanding 10.5:1 or 0.716 lambda for 40 sec after starting. Screen shot zoomed in on AFR and lambda. You can also see that for 15 sec after startup 3 small blips on the commanded AFR/Lambda.
ANy ideas about this?
Perhaps Ross may shed some light here for us > Ross?
cheers,
Mike
EFILIVE had found the fix....an update will be posted shortly
was it a newly uncovered table?
yup it was, but its not "new" , just one that hasn't been used by GM calibrators in older calibrations. A explanation on said table/feature will follow in an update shortly as this table will affect cammed engines cold starts. Standard engines it has no effect so not to worry with those.....
Next problem....."Fixing" a poor idle issue on a big cammed VE for a customer.Os: 12612381 Calib: 12612380
An early Model VE Holden.
The main culprit is that the biggest ECT TP it will command is 12.7% and thats it even with B1652 at 6 which maxes it out. This is in open loop idle tuning with Min idle airflow maxed out to 63g/s and intergral/proportional set to "0"
The VE 2012 model I've just finished tuning allows 18.8% with B1652 set to only "3" making cold starts a dream cos you CAN open the throttle further to get the airflow you need.
Surely there is a setting that can be made available that sets maximum throttle blade angle in idle mode. In earily calibrations this may be set much lower. I've followed exactly the same approach as I always have in setting up the idle.
My other question is: why does B1650 Max etc area change between models/years with the same throttle body attached to the engine??? I have tried changing this before to tweak max idle ECT TP but often get a limp mode fault P0606 ECU dead. Ringram you say you change B1650 with cammed cars. Could you please let us know how much you change it and what you have achieved using this approach. Changing this value though is surely a bandaid approach. I still think there is a setting for max allowed blade angle at idle because of the different max ECT TP at idle I'm seeing between different years of VE Holdens. Thanks.
any updates on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Alchemist
Prabably in this thread somewhere but does the same process apply for E67's?
Mine is 3300 or so. Ive not got the latest in front of me.
Im sure there is a missing table, but b1650 is the best value in lieu of the real table.
Jessie put me on to it when we were chatting at Sema. But it works. No holes need drilling etc. Im sure it does affect many other things, but idle transitions are pretty good, vastly improved over not changing b1650.
I wouldn't hesitate to change it.
Better logging is definitely needed. I am really suprised idle isn't a priority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kangsta
{B1219} Low Volatility Fuel Detect.
Turn to "off"
Anyone got a good trick to get the car to be smooth from park to drive? This 2011 (never happened to me before) wants to die when I put it into park and reverse.
If you have upgraded the camshaft, odds are the problem is airflow related. Post the tune when you have a chance ... myself and / or others will take a look. Also, a log of the event occurring - including at least the following PIDs:
- GM.AIRPERSEC
- SAE.SPARKADV
- GM.ETCTP
- SAE.RPM
- SAE.ECT
- SAE.IAT
- SAE.MAP
- E38.INVLVTMP_DMA
Plus whichever gear position PID is supported for your OS.
Regards,
Taz
In some OS's, there are "shift into gear" corrections for this (B1827}, {B1828}, {B1858}. Not all have these though.
If you don't have these, then you are stuch with getting minimum idle air spot on, or slightly high {B1829} and then use Idle Integral Step Size {B1844} to trim with.
Simon.
I think the main problem comes from somewhere else. Voltage is a tad too low.
Engine will not let me take a log (ECM not detected) after the car has started. As long as its shut off it does.
Problem with a ground.. but... I didn't remove any grounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about a tune file, and a log includin your fuel trim. I am curious if you are able to give an open loop log with a WB readout...