What up Joe...just stickin my nose in few things to see what's goin on. :grin:Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
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What up Joe...just stickin my nose in few things to see what's goin on. :grin:Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
Got back to it today. I loaded a stock maf table in to fix the mess from forgetting the cat protection disable. After one drive it is really close. For some reason though just at wot I get a +2.3 fuel trim just on bank 2. Bank one is zero. Dont know what would be causing this, or if I should even worry about it as the wot air fuel looks really good.
I will attach the last log I did, and the resulting tune.
Wow, Len that looks like a really 'clean' run. It will be hard to get a lot better than that.
Sometimes it may not be worth it to chase down an errant +1% LTFTBEN. Once you are satisfied with your MAF Curve (looks good to me), you have a couple of choices. If you want to buffer in an always negative LTFT, you can always add +1-2% to the entire MAF curve.
Another option since you are hitting such high RPM's is to alter B3809 slightly. Just change your RPM boundaries from 6502, 6503 to 7102, 7013. Sometimes that works. If not re-set the Trims..you may have to fudge a few MAF Frequencies to eliminate that one paticular fuel cell for total perfection.
But, IMO thats a really good look MAF and VE Table. You can probably blend that VE Table easier, now that your MAF is calibrated.
Good job!
I have slightly altered the CALC.VET 'Recommended Pids' to include logging of the NB O2 sensors:
1. GM.HO2S11
2. GM.HO2S21
These pids are highly recommended and are very useful to determine the heath of the NB's, and to calculate an accurate CALC.VET.
To keep channel count at 24 or less, SAE.SPARKADV as dropped. GM.KR was retained.
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/...CVETPids-1.png
Page 1 of the thread was updated..Thank You.
I agree with that, we want to see what the front NBO2's are doing, we don't really need spark at the moment; yes keep KR.
Since DAT (DYNAIRTMP) is being logged, could also trade off IAT and ECT for other pids, but only if DAT looks sane.
Hi Shawn, Joe,
Thanks for the resent posts. How do I check the O2s. Or a better question how do I determine the health of the O2s in a log.
Can you give us examples? What to look for.
Jorge
Jorge:
Moved response to 'Mechanical Issues that prevent Tuning': http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....nt-Good-Tuning
Yea, I never thought about that eliminating those (ECT & IAT). Excellent point. Technically they are not needed..Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
It would be nice to see GM.INPW1 also..
Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
That would be fine except for the cars that don't have GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA and use the calculated DYNAIRTMP instead.
Excellent point!..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninety8C5
Ninety9C5, good point regarding the 1997/1998's.
Good NBO2 in closed loop (i.e. trimming properly) will show these characteristics during steady part throttle:
- swinging faster than 2 complete cycles per second;
- swinging above 600 mV and below 300 mV;
- the average voltage will be close to 450 mV.
If they switch slower than 3 cycles per second, the the trimming will lag a little behind.
If they switch without going above 600 mV or below 300 mV then a DTC will trigger.
If the average mV deviates significantly from 450 mV then the trimming will be to some unknown AFR.
I find I have to replace NBO2's every 60K-70K miles... they do not go 100K as everyone believes.
Where at?
Sorry... I tried the "Reply With Quote" and screwed it up. I'm looking for the CALC.DYNAIRTMP formula previously posted. I have a 98 OS (F-Body)... just started reading this thread yesterday. Trying to learn everything about Calculated PIDs from scratch via hours of reading and safe experimenting. If you have a link to the actual formula that would be great.
Thanks
For OS id's 19980100, 1998020, 19980400 the pid GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA is not defined... so you use CALC.DYNAIRTMP instead.
I updated Page 1 of the CALC.VET thread to support the 1997 Corvette and 1998 Camaro & Trans-Am, including the exact calc_pids.txt and Pids you must select:http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....l=1#post135867
Nice...Thanks
wow, I just put new o2s in and my trims went to positive 22% at idle. The other ones were less than a year old, less than 500 miles on them. The only reason I put them in was because at cruise I would get bank one having a like 1.6 positive trim and bank 2 was zero. I am logging the bank one 02 and it was fine before. I still get a deviance between banks, but i think the changes from this log will straighten it right up.
I guess goes to show you how different parts react. Should have it nailed down again after another log. I will post this one just so you guys can see what a difference it is. Remember that the last tune was spot on. Perfect trims, ect.. the only change was the o2 sensors.
Interesting.
Looks like the change was mainly at Idle. Rest of your log looks pretty decent.
I bet you get it straightened out in another log or two.
Thanks for the information..:)
Len, I notice you rarely get any KR.
I take it you are running a 160F Thermostat. Any tips how you are keeping KR minimal.
Yea,
I do have a 160 t-stat. I love it.
I am liking the no KR this year. Honestly I havent changed anything in the tune as far as knock sensor sensitivity or anything. It is still stock settings. I am only running 25 or 26 degrees of timing in the upper end if I remember. I need to get to a dyno and play with the timing and see if I can gain anything.
I did see in the tune there is a place for either ls2 type sensors or ls1. I have ls1 sensors in the ls2 location (side of block) I though about changing that and seeing what it did, but I know the sensors work. I did get a bit of KR on a couple logs this year. And oddly enough last year on the 98 pcm I would get like 2.5 degrees of kr on every wot shift. With the pcm swap that is all gone now.
I hope to make a log this evening and see what the trims are at. It just floored me to see the trims go so positive from just a o2 sensor change. Yes it was for the most part at idle, but wow, what a difference. The old ones were not bad, they switched good, the heaters were good. I assume it is just the different sensors reading differently.
Take a look at this log and let me know what you think. Selbens are perfect, wot air fuel averages out to be perfect. But I dont understand the variance i have between banks on trims. One time I will look over when I am driving and bank one is at positive 5 and bank 2 is -2%. I dont have any exhaust leaks. It didnt do this till I put the new o2 sensors in. If you look at the average for the log it all looks good, but if you pick parts of it apart it looks funky. Maybe I shouldnt worry about it so much. I do now though I see have a .8 fuel trim at wot that I didnt have before. I assume I should tweak the maf table to take care of that.
Anyway let me know what you think and if you would do anything further, as far as getting the trims in line.
Well I guess you could drop SAE.SPARKADV and perhaps VSS Pid and log both GM.HO2S11 & GM.HO2S21.
I don't know if just matching different O2's would be the culprit. I guess you could always switch the O2's (banks) and see if the annoying imbalance follows.
I agree it would drive me crazy too.
I don't think it is anything in the Tune that is the culprit..
Good log :cheers:
Also log GM.DYNAIR [g/s]... drop IAT and ECT if necessary.
MAF signal starts oscilliating (or something) above 4000 rpm, the oscillations look big... that has me a little concerned.
Joe, I see the oscillations of the maf hz. I looked back at some of last years logs and those look good. Some oscillation, but not much. That is kinda concerning. The maf is a delco 85 mm z06 unit, so it doesnt have a screen. I wonder if that is why the airflow at higher rpm isnt smooth. I will try and get a log between raindrops today. I dropped vss, spark, kr. I have 25 pids and 21 channels selected.
What exactly is GM.DYNAIR, the pcms calculation of expected air vs. other conditions?
Also, what rates are your scantool set up at. Mine seems slower. I see the variance, but it isnt as bad on my log.
GM.DYNAIR is airflow [g/s] based on VE.
I want to compare MAF to DYNAIR.
We also want to compare CYLAIR_DMA (MAF based) to DYNCYLAIR_DMA (VE based), you're already logging these.
See post #2 here: showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes
With Logging Scan Mode set to Stream Fast, the logging rate should be 10 updates/second with 24 or less pid channels (i.e. about 0.1 second between each sample point).
Got a good log in tonite. Before the log I swapped in two more brand new a/c delco afs123 o2 sensors. And made a change to the hood opening on the car to see if that would maybe have some effect on the unstable maf at upper rpms. Log looks really good. o2s are switching good. Trims look great (other than at idle, that needs some more ve, or maf table work now I think) And it looks like the major oscillation in the maf is gone. There is still some, but at least on my scantool it looks better. I logged the pids that Joecar said to for comparison. Take a look at it and let me know what you think.
Wow, Len you have some of the best logs.
You have nailed the Trims and your fueling looks close to perfect in PE Mode and WOT.
Maybe changing both O2 sensors at the same time helped equalize the banks.
To me your MAF Freq still looks like there is some turbulence, but then I don't normally ever hit 13,000 on the MAF Frequency.:grin:..Even though it oscillates to some degree it looks like you still maintain the same EQ/AFR during your WOT runs.
As far as tune-wise, you have nailed another one.
Good job!
Thank you Shawn, living in a rural area really helps with getting good logs for wot stuff. I am very pleased with the tune. Now I can address the slight surge and some other things.
I do still have to get my idle trims in line, last log they were as high as +11. I didnt log spark, so unless i change the filter I cant use the data from last nite. But as far as idle goes, is it better to adjust the maf table, or the ve table to get your trims in line. I think the ve table is pretty close as it hasnt changed much in the last several logs, so I am leaning to the maf table for getting the idle trims back in line.
Len, my Idle theories are that on a MAF-Enabled vehicle, it is still primarily the MAF that affects Idle Trims such as LTFT's. You see the VE Table's influence primarily on cold-open loop start-up.
It gets tricky manipulating the MAF Frequency for Idle, because sometimes the same airflow is present at 0% TPS or low load. So just do the best you can.
The tight CALC.VET filter that has Spark in it, is to try to filter out DFCO transitions. Lately, I have just been trying to suggest Tuners disable DFCO as I have seen better results that way. You can still use the other tight parameters and just drop spark.
Thanks for all your logs. You have helped show that 100% WOT is the best way to dial in PE Mode..like you said not as easy to do if you live in an urban area..:grin:.
I followed the CALC.VET pdf, I set up everything and ran a log, applied filters, but when I copy the values fromt the CALC.VET map, the values are low (1.3-2.5) and my VE values are high, 70's and 80's. so when I copy and paste it makes my VE talbe all screwed up, am I pasting wrong? I did a copy with labels and a paste with labels.
Sounds like your Units don't match..
NOTE: for map Data, use the CALC.VET pid units that match your B0101 table, i.e. either % or g*K/kPa.
To display units on a map: go to map properties, on each of the Data, Row, Col tabs, checkmark Show Units.
Do what Shawn said.Quote:
Originally Posted by s10mods
Post screenshots of your VET map and your VE table.
Here are the screenshots. It looks like they match. I also attached my tune and log file.
Looks like the VE table in your tune is in percent (%) and your CALC VET table is in gK/kPa ... like apples and oranges ... can only compare (update) them if they are in the same units.
Regards,
Taz
Can I just change the units in my tune?
I see where I messed up now. I wasnt looking at the Units, I was looking at kpa and thought they matched. I changed my units in the tune tool.
Thank you for your help
Yes, go Edit->Properties and look at the VE units, select g*K/kPa; then restart the tunetool.Quote:
Originally Posted by s10mods
Oh, you did it, cool :cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by s10mods
Can anyone tell me if this tuning method is suitable for my application.
I have an e38 boosted and it retains the maf but pegs the maf at around 5500rpm
I am running e85 and have an analogue wideband and a pid to suit
thanks
68sstt:
Its only been tested on the GEN III-LS series. The dynamic and interplay of the MAF and VE are unique to this application. All the Pids are also set up exclusively for the LS1 series.
So, the general answer is no. There are some excellent E38 Tutorials that should be able to help you out.
Thanks for your interest.
The CALC.VET Tutorial (PDF Version) has been updated..http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....tire-VE-Table.
1. Pid Image/Text match page 1 of the CALC.VET Thread
2. Link to CALC.VET Thread repaired
3. Closed-Loop portion Updated
4. Draft Copy designation removed.