have you played with your eoit? a cam like that with such a short lsa is probably throwing a fair bit of fuel straight out the pipe.
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have you played with your eoit? a cam like that with such a short lsa is probably throwing a fair bit of fuel straight out the pipe.
I did play with it, I took 25 out of the entire table (shifted it down). After you posted, I looked at what Hymey posted about it, in this thread. He mentioned 400 in the B1205 table (ECT Injection Timing) and Zeroing out the B1206 (RPM Injection Timing). So I am off by a considerable amount in the ECT table and need to zero out the RPM table. Going to try that. Seems like a pretty big adjustment though. About 2X the original values at warm temps (154 F and up). Wondering if I should scale it the high number, right now I have 465 in cold temps, so maybe going down to 65 across the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tre-Cool
What role does that play in hot starts?
I've found once you get the eoit set and find good mixtures/timing base. even cold to hot starts won't vary to much. using hymey's method i've gotten a high comp 402 motor idling at 750rpm with a lot more vacuum than another tuner that was using a higher idle with less vac & because it was an auto car it made a big difference to brake assist when in gear.
Thanks for responding back. So you have a flat 400 thought your ECT injection timing table and zeros on your rpm based injection table?
correct. same value for the entire map. I don't always use 400 though it varies based on cam etc.
Cool, I'm going to give that a shot. Based on the math, the MS4 should be 403. So I'll try 400 and go from there.
I have a small cam in my 5.3, 212 218 214lsa. With stock tune it would fire up cold but idle wouldn't flare up like it used to. Once warm it wouldn't start without multiple tries. I started playing around with the min airflow tables and I got it to work but I knew it wasn't right. I was directed to this thread and read it all twice. I then tried following the steps on page 3 from hymey. Here's what I have done:
At first I drilled a 3.5mm hole, set max idle air to 1.10, maxed out min idle airflow, zeroed out corrections and then warmed it up. At first my timing with negative so I pulled the max idle air (both of them) down and down to damn near .65 before I got my desired idle (720) and timing of about 16*. I ASSUME this is right? Or does that number seem too low?
Then I populate the correction tables to 80% of stock values, set min idle airflow table to 14 across the board. I start it up and this is where I get confused. I am supposed to be looking for idle trim after 10-15 seconds? I don't even know what I am supposed to be looking for. I see TP at about 18.8 but it just sets there. Once in a while I will see it blip around in .4 increments but never when I am looking for it.
Perhaps I am also a little confused coming from the ls1 technology... this e38 isn't as intuitive. I'd like to learn though. Dumb question, but in my mind, using these steps, I am trying to find an operating range for the idle control? If so, can someone elaborate on that a tad?
Where I stand now... It's running (cold start seems a bit sluggish) and seems to run great. As I'm slowing a stop I can feel the truck try to accelerate just a bit. If I shift into neutral while stopping the idle flares up to about 1200 RPM's (which may explain the acceleration while in gear) until I stop then it settles back down.
I'd really like to get this close enough to be happy with it.
Tune plz
Also discribe your restarts a little better, like it starts but struggles to get to revs or struggles to start but gets to revs once started.
I went back to square one. bumped the min idle air tables up about 2, bumped idle 100 across the board and bumped startup airflow. It starts great, hot or cold and runs great. The ONLY thing I don't like is when coming to a stop it wants to rev up just before I stop completely. Almost lunges forward a bit. Which parameter do I need to adjust for that? I haven't altered my max idle area cells yet. They are set to around 2.4, both of them. Should I lower them? Just one?
Try taking some idle air out (start with 1 gram) of the min idle airflow table at the RPM the flair is happening out.Quote:
Originally Posted by bubba68ss
Ok I will try that.
What impact does and B1652 have?
I'm on my phone but B1652 should be max idle air for drive conditions. It's the hard limit the blade can open in effective area, regardless of min idle values. This could help with the flair if you close the cap between min idle air values and max area.
Does efilive have 'minimum idle rpm vs vehicle speed'? I see TC has it but how important is it for idle tuning?
I'd like to thank all the real tuners on this thread who've contributed such great info. It was very helpful in making a noticeable improvement in the idle quality of the LS7 in my '12 Z06.
Thank you all.
Hi Hib, hope you're doing well, good to hear your car runs well.
From a calibration standpoint, I've got the idle and part throttle driveability much better then when I picked-the car up after the engine work.Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
The engine has a terrible oil consumption problem, however, and I'm having a dialog about the problem via email with Katech, the guys who built the motor.
Let us know how it goes.
Thanks Joel (Hymey), Swingtan, Ringram and other contributors to this thread
I am just finishing off an 06 Z06 with 239/251 @ 0.050 on a 111.5LS cam, FAST intake, Headers, cat delete and exhaust with factory mufflers.
The car made 570hp/510ftlbs at the tire, pretty stout :)
I have done a bunch of E38's but this one had me challenged on the idle and startup. Going through this has it nearly sorted.
I haven't drilled the blade or modified B1650 yet.
It idles great, steady at 850RPM and likely would idle lower.
The only challenges I have at this point are a bit too long crank at hot start (haven't modified B1602 so am going to kick it up a bit) and the car surges at part throttle below about 220.
For the surge is the B5122 Coast Down Spark the most likely culprit or should I be looking elsewhere.
Thanks
Eldon
Attachment 22541
Attachment 22542
Attachment 22543
The car works amazingly on the road course however the surging below 2000 RPM is irritating. When it is surging the throttle blade and the timing can be seen to move in the logs but I am chasing my tail what is driving it. Cal and logs attached. Any thoughts.
Hmmm, might be spark advance related.
Hi Joe
I think it is but don't seem to be able to see what is driving it.
I have smoothed the main spark tables, the idle tables and the Coast Down in the areas where it seems it could be occuring and it still will move 20 degrees instantly than come back.
Here's a couple screen shots
I have changed the cal some from before
Attachment 22544Attachment 22545
ok, I'll take a closer look tonite when I get home.
That would be awesome Joe :) Thanks
Here are the latest logs and cal. It is getting better but still not right.
In my goofing around it wants to die as soon as I step on the clutch, LOL. People say this tuning thing is easy. There is so much intertwined.
With the later os, the hard limit in the tune for idle has been increased from 60 to 200. This has been in efilive for sometime. It used to only be in HP tuners. So I would not drill a hole unless the cam is very big. Log your P and I throttle airflow values. These are very handy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboCamaro
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Sorry for my ignorance but what are you meaning by "hard limit in the tune for idle"
Unfortunately we already put a hole in the blade on this one trying to get the surging out of the idle.
It is a pretty serious cam shaft: 239/251 .675/.675 on a 111.5LS
This was supposed to be a road race deal now wants to drive it on the street. I would have spread the centers a bit.
That's OK if you drill a hole. It won't matter, regardless what anyone says. The fitting in the manifold is basically a hole. If you block that , that changes the idle aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboCamaro
The hard limit Is the highest throttle opening the pcm can allow during idle and coast conditions.I don't have my laptop on me , only when I am tuning....
If the idle is correct. Small throttle openings is IGN timing, pulse width ( you will need to be in open loop with that cam and speed density) injector timing helps, you can move this around for drivability. Idle airflow numbers play a huge part in drivability. It will all fall into place if everything is correct.....
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Thanks
I have quite a bit of injection timing in it, 450deg I think, have moved it around some.
When you talk idle airflow numbers are you specifically talking minimum airflow or others as well.
I can see the ignition timing moving, swings +20Deg, but don't see where it's coming from. I have the spark idle compensation reduced quite a bit and allow the RPM to move some before it compensates.
When you say open loop do you think AFs are affecting this as the trims seem to be OK.
If the timing swings dig a bit deeper there.
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Thanks :)
Any ideas what I may be missing.
I ensured the idle base spark, Coast Down Spark and Main Hi Oct & Lo Oct Spark are flat in the areas it is surging. The Spark Idle compensation are significantly less than the amount the spark is moving. Are there pids to see Spark Idle Compensation and if it is using the Idle, coast or main spark tables. Or other?
I took a quick look at your log and cal. I believe the timing fluctuation is from the difference in timing between your base idle/coast down tables (~12-15 degrees) and the high octane (40 degrees). Any time you are on the gas it will jump to 40 and then drop to 12-15 when you left off. I usually try to match the high octane and coast down tables so there are not huge jumps in timing when you let off the gas and are moving. I also leave the timing correction close to stock, as it works pretty well to control idle speed. I made some changes to your cal, see attached.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboCamaro
I got home late... thanks hymey and LastCall for your replies, I appreciate you help :)
This is a customer's car, right?
By hard limit you mean the throttle can be pushed open further for idle via the corresponding parameters?Quote:
With the later OS, the hard limit in the tune for idle has been increased from 60 to 200.
Thanks Hymey and Lastcall for the input.
Thought I would update.
I tried your cal Lastcall and the surging got worse. It did pull the timing down nicely. Amazed me as I thought you were onto something.
So I logged all the EST pids and found that it is Torque Reduction Spark Retard that is pulling the timing however I still don't see what is causing it. I even maxed BTM and Throttle Tip In on the odd chance.
Attachment 22550
Attachment 22551
Attachment 22552
Try setting BTM Limit to min (i.e. most negative).
Thanks Joe
Still surging
I have spent a ton of time on this. Earlier today I reread this entire thread as well as any other info I could find and thought I had it and was just being a dummy and not remembering some of the steps in this thread. Or so I thought, I am at a loss.
I finally eliminated the SEMRET by 0ing B2522 Torque Reduction Max. I am a bit concerned this will reduce the traction control any ideas?
I ended up with redoing the Min Idle Air and Max Idle Air B1651 and B1652. I was thinking I had missed and that if I put B1651 real low like 0.7 or 0.6 it would stop the surging as it wouldn't allow it to go into idle mode. But this seems to also control the idle air max at idle in neutral.
I have even gone so far as putting it into Open Loop with no short or long terms and setting the MAF to come in at 1000RPM.
I am at a loss as to where to go from here.
Any help would be greatly appreciated :)
Which V7 build version are you running...?
HI Joe
V7.5.24
Is there anyway to see/log the idle airflow like commanded air, actual air, Integral, Proportional, etc
How do you see so many frames in the log . I can only see like 100 frames when i log...how do you squish them?
What idle speed should I shoot for on a stock cam?
Reason I ask is the closer I get to 550rpm using B1652 to reduce idle speed the rougher is seems to idle.
I zeroed 1845 and 1843
63 g/s in b1829
First start after idle trim reset ....runaway idle to 1000rpm
Used 1852 to bring idle down started with 1.1 went down to .75 still 630rpm
Ran best at .8 702rpm
It's too much rpm tho I think 702 it's a stock cam...
Should I zero 5130 my timing is fluctuating between 3and9 degrees...
Should I command more base spark b1504
How do I know if I need to add or subtract from 1652 if my spark advance is lower than what is commanded in b5104
Or just change b 1821 to a higher rpm and hope that 5128 5129 5130 5131 don't disrupt timing while trying to dial the idle air mix in?
If you are runnin a stock cam, why are you messing with the settings?
Start from stock and massage it smoother. Idle 2 is when you are pressing on the brake, and idle 1 is when you idle in park. You will have to adjust the throttle follower to be just below your final airflow. it will cause the rpm to scream (B1604) lower this then adjust the min airflow, and if you are stockish, go for 600-750rpm at 18-22 deg of timing advance.
For logging there is a setting you can adjust, go to edit, then properties,and click on the logging tab. Increase the frames there
I have a moderate cam and i use most of the stock settings, just allowed it to breathe a little more and fluctuate a little less. My only problem is when i shift out of gear into park the rpm drops from 725rpm to 400 then fluctuates. Its a work in progress.