The importance of a good Scantool

Hi all,

Just thought I'd give you a screen shot demo of a feature in the EFILive scantool that we believe is only available in EFILive.

We have created some special PID's that not even the GM dealers get with the Tech2!!.
It allows you to monitor all the parameters that make up the final spark timing values. The results are interesting......

The first screen shot shows a cold start on a cammed LS1.
Things to look for -
1 - Scan Spark, this is the timing figure you see reported by all other scantools.
2 - Base Spark, a special EFILive PID, this is the timing value the PCM has read from the current timing map it is using (eg, High Octane, or closed throttle in gear, etc).
3 - Cat Spark, a special EFILive PID, this is the amount of timing the PCM is subtracting from the base timing figure for Cat Converter lightoff. Unfortunately GM changed the code for spark summing over the years and some programs 'subtract' the timing figure from the base spark (like this example), others 'add' the timing figure, in those cases the values in the Cat Converter Lightoff table would be -6, -2 etc, not positive numbers.
4 - Idle Spark, a special EFILive PID, this is how the PCM attempts to control idle speed using timing (it adds and subtracts timing).
5 - Also shown but no values are being used are the special EFILive PID's - ECT Spark, IAT Spark, Trq (Torque Reduction) Spark, Bst Konck (Burst Knock) spark.
6 - Run Spark, yet another special EFILive PID, this is the final timing figure the engine will see once all corrections have been applied.

http://www.efilive.com/upload/public/GMPX/Spark1.png

So from this image you can see with any normal scantool you would be seeing a timing figure of approx 14degrees, you would then be asking yourself, BUT, i have over 20 degrees in the timing map it is running in!!.
Now, using these special PID's you can see the reason why....

Base Spark = 23.3degrees.
minus Cat Lightoff retard = 23.3 - 10.2 degrees = 13.1degrees
plus Idle Spark = 13.1 + 1.2 = 14.3degrees

Well, well, there is our actual timing value (Run spark).
Unfortunately the spark sums are calculated alot faster than the scantool can grab data from the PCM, so you can see differences of 0.2, 0.4 degrees in the final result simply because a parameter was updated faster than the scantool could grab it.
In any case, it just opens up the window to exactly what the PCM is upto......
But wait there's more, we have in development some more special PID's just like these that will help take the mystery out of Idle and Fueling.

Cheers,
Ross

Of interest here's some other shots from the same car -

http://www.efilive.com/upload/public/GMPX/Spark2.png

http://www.efilive.com/upload/public/GMPX/Spark3.png

Wow!!! That is fantastic! Thanks Guys!
A little treat keeps the peasants happy. :wink:

Cheers,
joel

I've attached a zip file so you can have the same setup for the spark PIDs' as shown on my first post when you get your copy.

Cheers,
Ross

You are the man, Ross. Thanks a lot for taking the time to post up this info!

Yes indeed, this is very neat. I wonder if the competition does this...

Apparently in the next release :roll:

Cheers,
Ross

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

Apparently in the next release :roll:

Cheers,
Ross

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Yeah, but probably only after they saw this thread....

Well, I've been wondering about a small issue I have right now where as I take off (part throttle) my timing drops to 4deg for about 1 - 2 seconds then comes good. It happens everytime and just feels crap to drive.
With our current set of spark PID's I have discovered it is Torque reduction doing it.....but the Torque reduction spark value we currently show is actually made up of 3 or 4 other spark adders/subtractors within the traction control and torque management areas.
So I am now testing a few new spark PID's to get to the bottom of this issue. They are -

Traction Control Spark Retard
Transmission Torque Reduction Spark Retard
Brake Torque Reduction Spark Retard

Once I can see of those 3 what is responsible I then need to hunt down why the PCM thinks it needs to do this and what table is pulling all that timing out.
Then you guys get it all in an update at some stage :)

Cheers,
Ross

RIGHT ON!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

Well, I've been wondering about a small issue I have right now where as I take off (part throttle) my timing drops to 4deg for about 1 - 2 seconds then comes good. It happens everytime and just feels crap to drive.
With our current set of spark PID's I have discovered it is Torque reduction doing it.....but the Torque reduction spark value we currently show is actually made up of 3 or 4 other spark adders/subtractors within the traction control and torque management areas.
So I am now testing a few new spark PID's to get to the bottom of this issue. They are -

Traction Control Spark Retard
Transmission Torque Reduction Spark Retard
Brake Torque Reduction Spark Retard

Once I can see of those 3 what is responsible I then need to hunt down why the PCM thinks it needs to do this and what table is pulling all that timing out.
Then you guys get it all in an update at some stage :)

Cheers,
Ross

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What vehicle type are you talking about here?

I posted this to keep updated on this topic. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drake

What vehicle type are you talking about here?

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2000 Holden Commodore, PCM running 2002 Holden only program, MAFless. I hope to get a chance today to log the new spark PID's.

Cheers,
Ross

O.K, tested the 3 new Spark PID's on the car today.
It looks like the Transmission Torque reduction is the problem.
At least now I know. I'll go hunting thtough the Trans Torque reduction code to see why.

Scan Spark is what the engine see's.
Trans Spark is the amount of timing 'subtracted' via the Transmission Torque Reduction algorithim from the Base Spark value which is derived from the main timing maps.

I hope to get these 3 new spark PID's in the next update, all of the 2002+ O.S's have been added already.

Cheers,
Ross

Ross,
This is pretty fascinating information you've come across! 8) I'm very impressed, as it gets down to the root cause or at least points at the likely suspect. Once you've picked apart the code, let us know what you find.

All my best,

Steve

Steve,

I spent some more time on this today but in the end I've decided just to get around the problem by disabling the TCS and Torque Control spark systems.
Instead I plan on finishing off adding the 3 new spark PID's into EFILive before the next update.

Cheers,
Ross

UPDATE:

4 new spark PID's will be in the next EFILive update due any day now.

1 - Trans Torque Reduction Spark
2 - Traction Control Spark
3 - Brake Torque Management Spark
4 - A/C Compensation Spark

EFILive now has a total of 18!! spark PID's, no other scantool comes close to that number.
We have already had many complements on how great these special PID's are (even though apparently they have never been seen before :roll: ).
At least you guys won't be left guessing where your timing figures are coming from.
Here's the list -

1 - Base Spark
2 - Coolant Temperature Spark
3 - EGR Spark
4 - Induction Air Temp Spark
5 - Cat Lightoff Spark
6 - Equivalence Ratio Spark
7 - Driveline Smoothing Spark
8 - Idle Control Spark
9 - Total Torque Control Spark
10 - Burst Knock Retard
11 - Run Spark
12 - Flex Fuel Spark
13 - Cold Engine Noise Reduction Spark
14 - Trans Torque Reduction Spark
15 - Traction Control Spark
16 - Brake Torque Management Spark
17 - A/C Compensation Spark
18 - Cranking Spark

Unless the next update is delayed one day the 1999,2000 & 2001 cars/trucks will not be able to see the four new PID's, sorry guys, if they don't make it in this update, the next update for sure.

Cheers,
Ross

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AllCammedUp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

Apparently in the next release :roll:

Cheers,
Ross

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Yeah, but probably only after they saw this thread....

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Just an update, it looks like they are indeed offering some more PIDs in the upgrade that just came out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

We have already had many complements on how great these special PID's are (even though apparently they have never been seen before :roll: ).

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At first you lost me there, but then I figured it out. :mrgreen:

"...tapped into the heart of the PCM to deliver never before seem parameters in the area of Spark Advance and Idle Airflow. Trying to find that mystery spark retard? Unsure if torque management is causing you problems? Idle tuning got you running in circles? These new tools will help troubleshoot those issues and more!"

:lol:

We're not really worried about that sort of thing, it's bound to happen.

Cheers,
Ross

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

UPDATE:
... EFILive now has a total of 18!! spark PID's, no other scantool comes close to that number....

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EFILive rules the world, he he he (...powertripping...) :twisted:

My outlook on the whole thing is "turnabout is fair play", if you know what I mean. 8)

If I'm not mistaken, it's possible to run 2 bar S.D. on the current software, w/o the need for an expensive upgrade... why don't you folks push that a little more, or maybe make some advertisements highlighting the differences between this software and other packages?

No need with their 2-bar stuff and the licensing scheme for that package no one will be able to get the money they put into that package back since it is locked to one vehicle. Kinda like edit ya know....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drake

My outlook on the whole thing is "turnabout is fair play", if you know what I mean. 8)

If I'm not mistaken, it's possible to run 2 bar S.D. on the current software, w/o the need for an expensive upgrade... why don't you folks push that a little more, or maybe make some advertisements highlighting the differences between this software and other packages?

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Drake - Once more users get their hands on FlashScan they will spread the word. The competition can make self proclaiming statements till they are blue in the face. Eventually their product will have to measure up (INCLUDING the scan tool) as their user base will begin to "see the light." Most people know the FACT that EFIlive is a superior scantool compared to anything on the market currently. Why some are expecting anything less from FlashScan is simply mindboggling.

At some point, people will wise up and realize that the competitions "copy" or "clone" ;) just doesn't stack up to the original.

In the meantime, all of us who have the genuine original get to enjoy one hell of a product with simply incredible support. :D

Thank you Pau, Ross and everyone else involved for your continued dedication to making our tuning lives easier!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

No need with their 2-bar stuff and the licensing scheme for that package no one will be able to get the money they put into that package back since it is locked to one vehicle. Kinda like edit ya know....

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Dirk,

In defence of the HPT 2bar program, based on what they are saying it can do there would have been a fair amount of effort in modifiying the code to do as they say......however, what it comes down to is if you think paying the $200 fee (on top of the purchase price of the software) to have a bigger VE table is worth it?.
The method I described in another thread for running a 2bar MAP has powered many daily driven 10sec blown cars out here just fine, so it can't be too bad!!.

Once things have settled around here we certainly plan on offering many of the mods we currently do in house to the general public.
Remember, we are only at our first release version of the Editor, it's only going to get better.

Cheers,
Ross

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Skiba

In the meantime, all of us who have the genuine original get to enjoy one hell of a product with simply incredible support. :D

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Thanks John, your comments (and others) are much appreciated, keep going and you'll earn a bonus license :wink:

Cheers,
Ross

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

The method I described in another thread for running a 2bar MAP has powered many daily driven 10sec blown cars out here just fine, so it can't be too bad!!.

Once things have settled around here we certainly plan on offering many of the mods we currently do in house to the general public.
Remember, we are only at our first release version of the Editor, it's only going to get better.

Cheers,
Ross

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I remember a thread around here, maybe two years ago, where I
believe it was Delco reminisced about a 2 or 3 Bar MAP for a Starr Performance car that he and GMPX setup :wink: .




I think it was a Whipple Supercharger on a Holden - I don't even know what a Whipple Supercharger is........is it a Roots?? :lol:
It impressed the Hell out of me :shock: because I realized at that point that they were deeply into the code. Remember...... I am the original Analog man. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
joel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bink

I remember a thread around here, maybe two years ago, where I
believe it was Delco reminisced about a 2 or 3 Bar MAP for a Starr Performance car that he and GMPX setup :wink: .

Cheers,
joel

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Wow, has it been that long...it is November 2003 isn't it. :?:

Cheers,
Ross

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bink

I remember a thread around here, maybe two years ago, where I
believe it was Delco reminisced about a 2 or 3 Bar MAP for a Starr Performance car that he and GMPX setup :wink: .

Cheers,
joel

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Wow, has it been that long...it is November 2003 isn't it. :?:

Cheers,
Ross

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HeHeHe...no...it's January 2004!
But seriously...Disgusting how fast time flew as you guys worked on FlashScan...isn't it??


Cheers,
joel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

In defence of the HPT 2bar program, based on what they are saying it can do there would have been a fair amount of effort in modifiying the code to do as they say......however, what it comes down to is if you think paying the $200 fee (on top of the purchase price of the software) to have a bigger VE table is worth it?.
The method I described in another thread for running a 2bar MAP has powered many daily driven 10sec blown cars out here just fine, so it can't be too bad!!.

Once things have settled around here we certainly plan on offering many of the mods we currently do in house to the general public.
Remember, we are only at our first release version of the Editor, it's only going to get better.

Cheers,
Ross

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I thought hard about what scan/tune tool I wanter for my 04 Pontiac GTO LS1. It came down to EFILive and HPT. But this is a clear example of why I ordered FlashScan. Straight to the point tell like it is and make it happen.

All I got from the other tool was market market bash bash bash the compitition. Actually, it created a complete lack of trust.

BTW this is my first post and I can't wait to take delivery of my order.

Thanks HighPerf.

I am not a forum junkie so I generally don't see what is being said outside of the EFILive forum unless somebody emails me a link of interest.

The difficult situation for EFILive is we were about 10 months behind HPT as far as a public release version of our tuning software which means whilst we get the tuner stable and 100% bug free and 100% support for all vehicles, things like code modifications to the PCM like what HPT beat thier chests about do get delayed.
Take a look around here and see if you can find anyone at EFILive bagging HPT when it first arrived, did you see the bug lists they had?, did you have to pull your PCM fuse too?...hey everyone has teething problems and if that is what they use as ammo towards us out there in cyber space then that is pretty sad.

All we can say to our customer base is that operating system mods and more are coming, just because we aren't the first on the block to release it does not really worry me, afterall, LS1Edit was the first to offer LS1 tuning so it's not as though we are all pioneers here.

I think people just want to generally know what we have planned. We have made it clear we don't want to do the V6 or 4cyl market so when people ask that's what we tell them.......BTW, how's the other mob going with the 4cyl and Duramax programming that was promised MANY months ago??, any day now. :roll:

Cheers,
Ross