TLIQ vs BT vs TLIQ or some such thing

ok so i am adjusting my TLIQ B0741 to improve my shifts and i may have stumbled across something quite odd and seems to go against what i have been taught about defueling during shifts

i was trying to determine how much MM3 the stock program pulls out during shifts to compare them to my current tune

i put together an Excel sheet to be able to show the figures in between the cells that you cant see in the tune file. i then filled the sheet with the 2004 LB7 stock tune data, then followed the [TBIQ B0727 MM3] to the [Base Torque B1102 desired torque amount] and then to the [TLIQ B0741 MM3]. it appears that the TLIQ ends up being the same as the TBIQ or close to it (1-3 MM3s difference).

is this how it is supposed to be and the [Min/Max torque reduction request D5194/D5195] in the transmission tune is what controls the percentage of MM3 that is used during shifts? if this is correct it would sure speed up my tuning.

i am beginning to believe that the transmission can request between 12% to 89% [Min/Max torque reduction request D5194/D5195] and this is the amount taken out of the [TLIQ B0741]. now if one was trying to correct bad shifting then all that would have to be done is follow the MM3s between the TBIQ, BT & TLIQ and make sure they are close and let the transmission work it self out. no more guess work.

remember this is for an LB7

please let me know if this sounds correct or i am crazy.

if any of you would like to see the excel file to see the results yourself let me know and i will attach it

thanks Jason

so i spent some time adjusting my [TLIQ B0741] to more closely match the [TBIQ B0727]. the transmission is still learning, but wow! so far the shifts are nice. now i just need to do some logging to see the defuel and do some comparisons to my other tune logs. looks promising so far.

i was hopping to be able to make the excel sheet calculate the proper TLIQ based on your TBIQ and base torque, but i am having difficulty following it backwards through the tables. right now i am just manually entering the figures and having the excel sheet display the results. if anyone else knows how to do this in excel so all you would have to do is copy/past your [TBIQ B0727] and [Base Torque B1102] and it will tell you how much to put in the [TLIQ B0741] or tell you how much torque in the [Base Torque B1102] that would be excellent.

i have attached the excel file that i have been working on. right now it has stock values for the 2004 LB7. adjust it, tweak it, prod it or criticize it any way you want. if any of you manage to make a working auto calculator for Base torque or TLIQ then we can add this to are arsenal of tools for building tunes

let me know what you guys think

Jason

Im trying to understand how the spreadsheet helps in calculating the defuel..excuse my ignorance, but could you provide a little more insight? This appears to be a very neat and useful tool!

well like i said, i am still working on it and having trouble figuring out a formula that will follow the MM3s from [TBIQ] to [base torque] to [TLIQ]. right now it is all manual. past in your [TBIQ] and [Base Torque] & [TLIQ] into each "Normal" tab. using the "TLIQ Full" tab (the one that shows the values between the cells in the tune) you will be able to see how much MM3s will correspond to the [TBIQ]. by adjusting the [Base torque] and/or [TLIQ] (not in the Full tab but regular tab) and seeing the new figures you will be able to make them more closely match.

example:
-The [TBIQ] goes from 0, 10, 20, 30, etc. there are 9 figures between 10 & 20, 20 & 30, etc.
-[Base Torque] has a similar pattern
-[TLIQ] has -207, -111, -18, 74, 185, 277, etc

-If you want to know how much MM3s are being injected while at lets say: 30% throttle & 2000 RPMs you track the 15 MM3s to the [Base toque] value
-In the [Base Torque] there is no "15" MM3. but in the Base Torque Full tab in the excel file you can see that the torque is 36.
-now in the TLIQ there is no "36", but in the "TLIQ Full" tab 36 & 2000 RPMs = 15 MM3s (see how the MM3s in the TBIQ and the TLIQ are the same)

for someone that has made changes to there [TBIQ] or [Base Torque] and now the shifts are all out of whack or would just like to make it better he/she would do the same exercise explained above. make changes, up or down, to the [Base Torque] and/or [TLIQ] tabs and then use the "Full" tabs in the excel file to see the exact amount of MM3.

this is a long process if needing to adjust a lot of cells. that why i was trying to make it automatic with formulas. right now it seems to have worked for me but it would be neat if it was automatic.

Note: the "Full" tabs in the excel file just look at the "normal" tabs to get there information. make the adjustments in the "Normal" tabs until you get it to where you want then copy/past it into tune

ask if you have any more questions

Jason

some additional information on why i decided to do this.

with my old [TLIQ B0741] which shifted fine. the max value that i had in it was 74 MM3. this limited the max fuel that could be commanded. when i increased the MM3 in the [TLIQ] the shift would get crazy and not settle down. with the excel file i was able to get my max fuel up to 104 MM3.

Jason

so i just did a quick log on my way home. here is a screen shot showing that defuel is still occurring even with the TLIQ set to the same MM3 as TBIQ. it starts out where i am cruising at 60 mph and then push the peddle down to almost WOT. during the first defuel it drops 54 MM3s and shifts from 5th down to 3rd. then less then a second later it it defuels again dropping from 98.2 MM3 to 78 MM3 while shifting into 4th gear. other parts of the log not in the screen shot that where not as aggressive show defuel anywhere from about 25 MM3 to 8 MM3 during shifts

i am pretty happy with the way my truck shifts now and i believe it is properly defueling for longevity of the transmission.

i will try to finish the excel spreadsheet so it will automatically give you the figures needed for ether Base Torque or TLIQ for anyone that wold like to try it out. and for all of you out there that have defuel turned off i recommend you give this a shot.

Jason

i have also found that you must enter the new torque values into the transmission tune [D5196 torque limits] for proper adaptive shifts. i assume that this is not always necessary but if you have changed your ECM tune considerably then this would be a good idea.

Jason,

I know I am resurrecting an old thread, but just wondering if any more progress has been made on this or not.
I haven't gotten my head around this yet, hope to look at it in more detail tonight, but if you are correct in that this is the math that GM used to populate the TLIQ table knowing the Base Torque and TBIQ that would be HUGE!!!

Like I said, I haven't looked into your guess and check method that you say works above, but if that works out, I would assume that deriving the equation wouldn't be too hard...... says the guy who hasn't dug into the details.

I do think that to do it, you would have to keep the Base Torque table constant (stock). Then a change to the TBIQ ran across the CONSTANT Base Torque table, would yield your new TLIQ.

This is what I have been struggling with and the more I think about it, the more I think this is what your calculator can't derive, is what is the TARGET defuel. If running higher fueling the stock, you don't want the same defuel as stock or it will be too severe. As we have all seen when logging DMAX TORQUE MAIN, the stock defuel blip is not just a drop to one point and back up, because it references both the TLIQ and Base Torque, once it requests a lower torque, which drops fueling, that drops the mm3 at that moment which moves it to another cell in Base Torque which drops the mm3 further due to dropping torque on the y axis of TLIQ, this trend continues until the transmission no longer requests the defuel. Or at least this is my explanation for the knees in the DMAX TORQUE instead of a simple straight line down and back up.

Sorry for the rant, just wondering if anyone had gotten anywhere with this? Seems like a good start / thought. Around your last comment regarding updating the transmission tune with the new torque values..... does this imply that you are indeed changing the 'base torque' ECM tables? Just seems to me that you have to fix either the Base Torque and adjust the TLIQ or vice-versa. Since the two tables work together, seems that you would drive yourself crazy dialing in both.

all good points and good questions.

when i dial it in i change base torque the most then TLIQ if i cant get it to mach right. for it to work right you cant just change one table, you will jump between them until up all lines up.

what i couldn't figure out was how to get the calculator to do the math i reverse. i have one that just shows me the results and i adjust the numbers till the results match or go to "0".

so far i have only tried this on two trucks one LB7 and one LLY. i know it has worked on mine (LB7) and from what i have been told the LLY is shifting much better.

the only issue that i see, and you kind of touched on it, is if the PW is increased then both the throttle base and the TLIQ MM3s are increased. at some point the MM3 will be high enough that the defuel will be equal to the none defuel amount of a stock tune. this will shorten the life/wreck a transmission but i guess that is what a built transmission is for. i wonder how long a built transmission would last on a stock tune with the defuel turn off(insert oxymoron).

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Since the two tables work together, seems that you would drive yourself crazy dialing in both

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once you get the hang of it, it is not that hard to do. the more that throttle base has been changed the longer it takes to correct it.

thanks jason

Well, I spent yesterday evening on a Dmax water pump job so didn't have time to look into this. You did help to answer one of my questions. I too have modified the Base Torque table in the past and on a recent LLY built tranny tune I did, I forgot to copy and paste my modified base torque table so it was stock and the thing was falling on its face. I didn't catch my copy and paste problem and assumed that maybe it was something unique to this truck so I started bumping up the values in the TLIQ at 3200 rpm where it shifts at full throttle.
I later caught my mistake but this issue led me to looking into a way to mathematically adjust the defuel tables based on the increase in fueling..... I only adjust PW above 80mm3 so that I don't have to adjust the defuel tables down low.
Anyhow, I think your method may work as it accounts for bumping up the mm3 commanded in the TBIQ but it doesn't account for PW being added to a given mm3 value.... say going from 1400 msec to 2000 msec at 100mm3. Like I said, I haven't dug into it yet so I may be way off here, just my initial thoughts on why this calculator may not work.

LB72004,

I see that you posted this spreadsheet back in February and then had a discussion on another thread with another tuner in August regarding these 3 tables, TBIQ, Base Torque, and TLIQ in which at the last post you acted like you had an 'ah-hah' moment. Did you get it all figured out? I still haven't had a chance to look into it further but I definitely have not had the 'ah-ha' moment yet.

in terms of getting the excel sheet to work automatically, no.

attached is the current sheet that i use for LB7s. to open it change the extension to "xlsx". it is the newer 2007+ excel file type.

it shows the difference in MM3 between the the throttle base and the TLIQ. past in your tables into the "Math" tab and see what the difference is. the other tabs show the full information between the cells not shown in the tune, dont make any changes here. in the "Math" tab, adjust the base torque and torque limit injection quantity and if you want the throttle base till the green set of cells are as close to "0: as possible. when done past them back into the tune.

i haven't proved that this is the correct way to tune the TLIQ or that it is safe but it has worked on two trucks so far. feel free to test it out, and please let us know the results

Resurrecting an old thread. But thought It was kinda interesting. Looked at the math and found an error. In the TBIQ tab and Base Tq tab, you divided by 9 when you should have been dividing by 10, Just something to help you out. I knew you posted the LLY and LB7 ones somewhere else as I downloaded them a LONG time ago. Couldn't find that post again but did find it here.

You made the same error in the LLY spread sheet as well.

Good work tho.

good catch. here is the corrected files

update. here is my latest calculator that does all the calculations for you once you plug in the relevant dataAttachment 23649

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Originally Posted by LB72004

update. here is my latest calculator that does all the calculations for you once you plug in the relevant dataAttachment 23649

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Hey, just wondering if you have ever looked into doing something similar with LBZ/LMM?

how do you mean? only the LB7 and LLY uses that torque strategy. the later models don't even have those tables.

I realise that. I was just wondering if a similar strategy had could be used.

I found a way to reduce the affect of torque reductions in the LMM/LBZ through trial and error anyway so no longer needed. I have both LMM/LBZs shifting beautifully now with torque reductions still enabled

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Originally Posted by LB72004

update. here is my latest calculator that does all the calculations for you once you plug in the relevant dataAttachment 23649

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Pretty badass. Im guessing the torque values are in NM? And from previous posts the best way to start is put TBIQ in the TLIQ table and work from that? It seems like the torque table from stock only gets fudged with when your manually changing pulsewitdh. I have not been brave enough to set 10 in the 10 percent and 20 in the 20 row and so on up in the throttle table and make it linear to get a verification on delivered torque.

Chris

I made it with values in lb/ft but math is math so it might work with NM but haven't tried it

i redid my stock truck with the experiment xls file spreadsheet. I don't have access yet to the transmission table as i haven't updated my efi live in some time. I don't want to lose certain functions. I set the values to lb ft. It seemed to produce the smoothest result. As a starting point with the defuel tables, is that what you did with tbiq and tliq? You pasted the tbiq table in and go rid of the bigger discrepancies? Im not looking for dragons so much as making the defuel smoother and more seamless.

Thanks again! Im trying to learn it the best i can.

are you referring to the one I posted in post #15? if so, then if you make changes to either the throttle base or torque base tables then you copy/paste both of those tables into the relevant sections as labeled in the excel file. then copy the newly generated defuel table B0741 and paste it into your tune. I don't have much to show if copying the table into the transmission does much but I believe it will help the transmission with its torque calculations while shifting so maybe smoother shifts

the spreadsheet was made in imperial or lb/ft and I have not tested it in newtons so I don't know if it will still work