E38 help

hey guys i have had my car tuned over 2 years ago by a shop. i have now bought efilive for myself to sharpen the tune up.

first off the car has a l98 6L, 6sp manual with mafless tune, 1.7/8 4into1 100cell cats twin 3inch exhaust and a 220s cam.

i feel the car is really sluggish under 3000rpm if you plant it she will take off and as soon as you hit 3000rpm it will blaze the tyres and feel twice as quick. i would expect it to be very pokey down low with a small cam but its not.

ive drove another car with similiar mods but i bigger cam and defiantly feels stronger down low.

i have compared a stock tune from my model to my bought one and not alot of tables have been changed

so asking if you guys could look over the tune and see if they've missed any tables that need to be changed or dont look right would be very much appreciated.

Oh dear !

Dammm

HAHA sounding positive there you 2... :)

was this "remote" tuned?

hey mate no this was dyno tuned and road tuned by a pretty well known tuner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wooly

hey mate no this was dyno tuned and road tuned by a pretty well known tuner.

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Oh WOW!!

had a go at it both dyno and road and still messed up really badly...

hope he has learnt how to tune over the last 2 years then for his customers sake

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wooly

hey mate no this was dyno tuned and road tuned by a pretty well known tuner.

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The tuner may become (if he is not already) "pretty well known" for all the wrong reasons with that kind of tune.
Some fairly obvious stuff there but I wouldnt like to comment until there are some logs.
Would like to see comprehensive logging of all the usual PIDs and in particular octane scalar. ;)

thanks for replys but use arent giving much info on what i should be looking at and what use are seeing thats wrong.

i have been back several times to try sort the problem out with no luck.

what sort of logs wold you guys like to see also what pids.

im a newbie at efilive so bare with me. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wooly

thanks for replys but use arent giving much info on what i should be looking at and what use are seeing thats wrong.

i have been back several times to try sort the problem out with no luck.

what sort of logs wold you guys like to see also what pids.

im a newbie at efilive so bare with me. :)

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1. Have you read through any of the tutorials? (There are some excellent resources on here)
2. Do you have a Wideband installed?
3. Where are you located?

Most of the guys are really helpful... but I am not sure that they will engage in a "newbie" coaching AND a remote tuning/troubleshooting dialogue using the forum, that would be extremely time consuming for everyone involved.

Start with these PIDs as a minimum:

ECM.RPM,
ECM.TP,
ECM.VSS,
ECM.ECT,
ECM.IAT,
ECM.OCTSCL_M,
ECM.MAP,
ECM.AFRATIO_M,
ECM.SPARKADV,
ECM.INVLVTMP_M,
ECM.AIRPERSEC,
ECM.KR,
ECM.MAFSD,
ECM.APCYL_M,

hey mate yes i have been reading through the tutorials and threads non stop for a few months and will continue todo so.

i have a wideband in the mail, actually expecting it to rock up today.

iam located in australia WA.

thanks for your time i will get a decent log today and post it up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wooly

hey mate yes i have been reading through the tutorials and threads non stop for a few months and will continue todo so.

i have a wideband in the mail, actually expecting it to rock up today.

iam located in australia WA.

thanks for your time i will get a decent log today and post it up.

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OK.
Good luck with your log.
I will try to help as much as I can but time is limited and I am far from an "expert".
knowing your AFR is essential to getting the tune right.

In the interim I would recommend putting the stock Spark tables and the stock Power Enrichment tables back in.
At least that will make it ALOT safer and may help your issue a little.

You may have multiple issues but I suspect you are currently getting alot of knock but only a log will confirm that.

So until you get some logging done start by setting {B3618} and {B5101) and {B5102} to stock.

ok ive been out and done a log out the back of town. i did i few wot runs but was getting wheel spin threw 1st 2nd and 3rd on some of the runs i tried to keep traction but not much luck. also abit of cruising to and from.

I Completely agree with T2000
" stock Spark tables and the stock Power Enrichment tables back in.
At least that will make it ALOT safer and may help your issue a little."

that is a shocking tune to say the least as you can gather from the comments made above.... There are many many tables that you need, have, to alter to achieve a good result with any cam upgrade. The cam choice is OK for a road cam BUT the tuning, if you can call it that, is not very good at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wooly

ok ive been out and done a log out the back of town. i did i few wot runs but was getting wheel spin threw 1st 2nd and 3rd on some of the runs i tried to keep traction but not much luck. also abit of cruising to and from.

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Alright, I had a few minutes up my sleeve and ran a compare with the stock tune.

The reason your log is showing no knock and your octane scalar is staying at 0.00 is because you might as well unplug your knock sensors!
Your reputable "Tune Shop" has virtually turned them off!!!

Comparison summary: 05:28:17 pm, Monday Aug 05, 2013

Calibration comparison between E38-modified.shop.ctz and 2008 Holden Commodore Utility Manual L98 6.0 Litre (12619078).tun.
*Values that differ by more than 0.000100% are considered different.


B1911 "False Knock Threshold" 3.137255 "CAL: 8.0 <-> ALT: 12.0"
B1905 "Knock Fast Attack Retard Limit" 3.137255 "Different from cell: 4,0 to cell: 16,16 inclusive."
B1906 "Knock Recovery Rate" -0.625000 "Different from cell: 5,0 to cell: 16,16 inclusive."
B1914 "Burst Knock Retard" 4.705882 "Different from row 2 to row 8 inclusive."
B1967 "Knock Threshold Cylinder A" -4.300781 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 8,16 inclusive."
B1968 "Knock Threshold Cylinder B" -4.000000 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 8,16 inclusive."
B1969 "Knock Threshold Cylinder C" -4.099609 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 8,16 inclusive."
B1970 "Knock Threshold Cylinder D" -3.599609 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 8,16 inclusive."
B1971 "Knock Threshold Cylinder E" -4.300781 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 8,16 inclusive."
B1972 "Knock Threshold Cylinder F" -3.986328 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 8,16 inclusive."
B1973 "Knock Threshold Cylinder G" -4.300781 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 8,16 inclusive."
B1974 "Knock Threshold Cylinder H" -4.300781 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 8,16 inclusive."

To undo all of the "work" that your tuner has done I would be tempted to start with a stock tune. :shock:

okay so its looking like i have to start again :/

thats kinda funny as when i was talking to the said tuner he was going on about how all the other shops turn of knock sensors ect and he doesnt.

so is it worth changing all those above tables to stock or just start from scratch on a stock tune ?

it also looks like my wideband wont be arriving today as the postie has already been.

appreciate your help mate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wooly

okay so its looking like i have to start again :/

thats kinda funny as when i was talking to the said tuner he was going on about how all the other shops turn of knock sensors ect and he doesnt.

so is it worth changing all those above tables to stock or just start from scratch on a stock tune ?

it also looks like my wideband wont be arriving today as the postie has already been.

appreciate your help mate.

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Just for the sake of making it safer and keeping it drive-able... try the following.

1. Using the compare tool and a stock 12619078 calibration:
Replace {B3618} and {B5101) and {B5102} to stock settings.
In the compare summary click on each of the above and click on "update"

Then.

2. Add a little Knock sensitivity back.
Navigate to each of these tables in your current tune.
{B1967}, {B1968}, {B1969}, {B1970}, {B1971}, {B1972}, {B1973}, {B1974}
In each table;
Hit <ctrl> <A>, then in the Adjust toolbar put 0.8 and click on the multiply button.

Go for another drive/log and we can go from there.

Just saw this thread....

:Eyecrazy: err... That's an interesting tune and I'd say there is little to be saved from that tune, seriously, I'd through it in the bin and start from scratch. Here's my very short sinopsis for your specific case....

1. Fueling: The car is MAFless tuned, so the VVE is controlling all the fueling. Looking at the VVE shows that it's basically woeful. The shape is all wrong and at best can be called an "approximation". This means it is relying very heavily on the STFT's to correct the cruise mixtures. To make things worse, the LTFT's are disabled so the ECM can't even predict what the error is going to be.
   
   How do I know the VVE is so far off? {B8020} is set wrong, reducing the ability of the VVE to obtain the correct shape. The top RPM zone in this tune starts at 6600 RPM and the rev limiter is set at 6850, so it doesn;t really make good use of the top zone... Obviously, the STFT's won;t help in PE mode, so the PE commanded fuel is all over the shop in an attempt to correct the VVE. While the final exhaust measured AFR "might" be correct, you have no way of making further "accurate" adjustments because the base VVE is s wrong.
   
2. Spark: The high and low spark tables are set to the same value. While this may not be an issue if you get exactly the same fuel every time, it does remove a safety feature that will help protect your engine in case you get a bad batch of fuel or are forced to run a lower grade. If the spark and fuel tables are set up correctly, then you never come off the high spark table, so there is no reason why these two table should ever be the same in a finished tune. Setting the low spark table 8 to 12 degrees lower than the high table will never reduce efficiency, as the ECM will stay on the high table unless there is some other issue. In this case, you want to reduce timing to help the motor.
   
   This engine may not display a lot of knock though, mainly because the knock sensors have been desensitized by roughly half. While this is not a big issue in its self, it needs to be viewed in with the rest of the tune. For example, if you run close to the edge with fueling and timing, you probably want a bigger margin in the engine protection mechanisms, not less.
   
3. Protection: Speaking of which, there are some settings which don't look great.
   
   • Rev Limiter: Currently set for fuel and spark. This was OK back in the old days, but why would you do this when you can close the throttle with the ECM? Throttle control for over rev conditions just works better (IMO)
   • TCS: This is even worse. If you get some wheel spin, the ECM will cut the spark but keep the throttle and fuel going.... Again, it's better (smoother) to close the throttle.
   • TCS Throttle Limiter by gear: This is maxed out in your tune, so the ECM has no predictive torque limiting. If this table is set well, the ECM will reduce torque to limit wheel spin and not result in a full blown TCS cut out. I've had my best 0-100 times with TCS turned on and this table correctly set.

I've seen tunes like this before. Cars with small cams that hunted badly on idle, didn't start well when cold, guzzled fuel and just ran poorly. A 220's cam should run almost like a stock motor. Idles speeds should be around 700RPM (not 750, though it doesn't make a big difference). Around town it should see between 13 to 15Lt/100 KM and on the highway, it should drop into the 9lt/100 KM range. It should also do 0-100 in about 5 seconds (grip permitting). Power should also be smooth and predictable.

I'm assuming you are in Australia, send me a PM and I'll help out where I can.

Simon.

thanks T2000 and swingtan for very detailed reply

so i have done as suggested and put all those tables back to stock.

also just to clear up cam is 224/230 114lsa 580/590 lift

hopefully i can get this sorted soon as im a entrant at powercruise in a few weeks and will be wanting to give the car a hard time all weekend.

this is where im at now with the tune not much changed but made it safer as said.

easiest thing to do is get get a STOCK tune for your car and flash that in and start from scratch..