Quick RAFIG / AutoVE questions

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January 7th, 2007
diynoob

Quick RAFIG / AutoVE questions

Hi guys,

Long time listener, first time caller. :notacrook: This site rocks, Flashscan rocks, and my car... rocks at WOT, but not so much at idle :bawl:

2003 Z06, TTiX twin turbo, forged motor with mildly lower compression, 72cc ported LS1 heads (don't ask), and a baby turbo cam. I wish I had the specs, but I was given the cam # and Cammotion's phone #, not a grind spec (since I guess the grind was supposed to be a secret). For the purposes of this post, let's assume it has more exhaust duration to help the turbos and maybe a little more lift than a Z06 cam, but not much.

I did 2 passes with AutoVE today on the road. Most cells wanted anywhere between 4% and 8% added, a few cells under high vacuum wanted 10%ish, but for the most part it looked like my heads/cam were mild enough that the PCM could have LTFTd its way through the changes without issue.

Now, first question - I am using an LC1 - how much variance between passes is normal? For example, on pass 1 EFILive told me to scale a cell by 1.09. The next pass it told me to scall it by .97. I am kind of inclined to just leave well enough alone if I can get all the cells to want to go slightly negative (.95 to .99). Is this acceptable practice or do you guys always get yours nailed right down to .99 or 1.00?

Now, second question. I am having some idle trouble (car wants to stall, 90% of the time it recovers itself). If I blip the throttle when stopped it does it, if I coast to a stop in neutral, it does it. If I coast to a stop in gear until around 1000rpm then go neutral, it will sometimes do it. It drives GREAT in gear between 400rpm and 1500rpm, where I seem to have the most idle trouble. Given the small cam and minor tweaks to the heads I am guessing RAFIG/RAFPN should take care of my problem, yes?

Will RAFIG/RAFPN work fine with the SD settings from AutoVE still loaded? I don't want to reenable my MAF yet as I want to nail the rest of the tune first. I seem to recall disabling fuel trim learning from the AutoVE tutorial but I don't know if that affects idle trim learning too.

Lastly, all four of my DMAs for RAFIG/PN show up with red Xs. GM.IAC_LTD_DMA, GM.IAC_LTPN_DMA, GM.IAC_STD_DMA, and GM.IAC_STPN_DMA. I have tried validating the PIDs and they keep coming back with red Xs. Anyone know what could be causing that?

:cheers:
January 7th, 2007
Tordne

Quote:

Originally Posted by diynoob

Hi guys,

Long time listener, first time caller. :notacrook: This site rocks, Flashscan rocks, and my car... rocks at WOT, but not so much at idle :bawl:

2003 Z06, TTiX twin turbo, forged motor with mildly lower compression, 72cc ported LS1 heads (don't ask), and a baby turbo cam. I wish I had the specs, but I was given the cam # and Cammotion's phone #, not a grind spec (since I guess the grind was supposed to be a secret). For the purposes of this post, let's assume it has more exhaust duration to help the turbos and maybe a little more lift than a Z06 cam, but not much.

I did 2 passes with AutoVE today on the road. Most cells wanted anywhere between 4% and 8% added, a few cells under high vacuum wanted 10%ish, but for the most part it looked like my heads/cam were mild enough that the PCM could have LTFTd its way through the changes without issue.

Now, first question - I am using an LC1 - how much variance between passes is normal? For example, on pass 1 EFILive told me to scale a cell by 1.09. The next pass it told me to scall it by .97. I am kind of inclined to just leave well enough alone if I can get all the cells to want to go slightly negative (.95 to .99). Is this acceptable practice or do you guys always get yours nailed right down to .99 or 1.00?

Firstly, welcome to th forum!!

I'm going to start by asking that you followed the LC-1 tutorial and that you are satisfied that it and EFILive are configured so that the AFR readings derived from the LC-1 output voltage is correct :)

I generally try and have the average for a cell between 0.98 and 1.02. Now, there will be a wider variance that than for the min/max of a cell (generally - especiall under light loads/decel).

Quote:

Originally Posted by diynoob

Now, second question. I am having some idle trouble (car wants to stall, 90% of the time it recovers itself). If I blip the throttle when stopped it does it, if I coast to a stop in neutral, it does it. If I coast to a stop in gear until around 1000rpm then go neutral, it will sometimes do it. It drives GREAT in gear between 400rpm and 1500rpm, where I seem to have the most idle trouble. Given the small cam and minor tweaks to the heads I am guessing RAFIG/RAFPN should take care of my problem, yes?

Is this an M6 or A4 firstly? Because you mention RAFPN I'm inclined to think A4. If not, don;t worry about that cause an M6 is always considered to be "in gear".

RAFIG/RAFPN will make a huge difference and do need to be accurate for you idle transition to be smooth. It is important to get this table in line first really.

Also have a look at the Throttle Cracker tables to see how much airflow is being added at various RPM vs. Speed points.

You may also like to have a look at the decay rates for Throttle Follower and perhaps slow the decay. I know some guys have had problems with the car dying when the throttle is blipped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by diynoob

Will RAFIG/RAFPN work fine with the SD settings from AutoVE still loaded? I don't want to reenable my MAF yet as I want to nail the rest of the tune first. I seem to recall disabling fuel trim learning from the AutoVE tutorial but I don't know if that affects idle trim learning too.

Absolutely!! Trimming is for fuel, not airflow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by diynoob

Lastly, all four of my DMAs for RAFIG/PN show up with red Xs. GM.IAC_LTD_DMA, GM.IAC_LTPN_DMA, GM.IAC_STD_DMA, and GM.IAC_STPN_DMA. I have tried validating the PIDs and they keep coming back with red Xs. Anyone know what could be causing that?

:cheers:

Go to the File->Enter VIN menu in the Scan Tool and check that you have the correct Operating System listed. That may change them to valid PIDs...
January 7th, 2007
TAQuickness

RAFIG should nail the the stationary idle issues (you don't sound like that is a big problem), and minor changes to your throttle cracker and or follower tables should get the transitions in line.

As for the AutoVE, I aim for .98 to 1.01 BEN's. It may take you a few passes to get it dialed in due to the way the PCM interpolates between cells.
January 7th, 2007
diynoob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordne

Firstly, welcome to th forum!!

I'm going to start by asking that you followed the LC-1 tutorial and that you are satisfied that it and EFILive are configured so that the AFR readings derived from the LC-1 output voltage is correct :)

I generally try and have the average for a cell between 0.98 and 1.02. Now, there will be a wider variance that than for the min/max of a cell (generally - especiall under light loads/decel).

Thanks! :cheers: I did setup the LC1 according to the tutorial, and it showed 19.99 AFR in EFILive with the engine off, and real close to 14.7 when the car has a solid idle and is just sitting there.

Quote:

Is this an M6 or A4 firstly? Because you mention RAFPN I'm inclined to think A4. If not, don;t worry about that cause an M6 is always considered to be "in gear".

Didn't know this... good info, thank you. It's a six speed manual, so I'll just get rid of the RAFPN PID and MAP.

Quote:

Go to the File->Enter VIN menu in the Scan Tool and check that you have the correct Operating System listed. That may change them to valid PIDs...

The OS which I had selected was 12593358. When I looked up the VIN on the GM website, it also showed my OS was 12593358. The notes for this OS on the GM site indicate it's an update to correct a fuel disable malfunction and that this OS supercedes several including 12221588. When I selected 12221588, my RAF PIDs lost their red Xs.

Should I just leave it at 12221588 and call it a day?

Thanks to both of you for the info on BEN factors to aim for.

:wave:
January 7th, 2007
Tordne

So your OS is 12593358 or 12221588? I have stock files for both on the tune repository if you actually wanted to update before starting.

I guess if you haven't started tuning you you may as well get the newer OS...
January 7th, 2007
diynoob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordne

So your OS is 12593358 or 12221588? I have stock files for both on the tune repository if you actually wanted to update before starting.

I guess if you haven't started tuning you you may as well get the newer OS...

My OS appears to legitimately be 12593358 -- that is what was selected by default when I entered my VIN and connected EFILive, and that is what the GM website says my OS is. It also shows up as the OS ID inside the tuning program.

For whatever reason, Flashscan says I can't have the RAFIG supporting PIDs on 12593358, but it lets me have them with 12221588. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a database somewhere in the installation that will let me tell Flashscan that 12593358 should support the RAFIG PIDs? I am using version 7.3.2 IIRC.
January 8th, 2007
diynoob

Unfortunately when I connect to the vehicle, it automatically detects the 12593358 OS and I can't log RAFIG. So it seems there is nothing I can do to force it to think it's 12221588 to get those PIDs.

Is there a config file somewhere I can edit to tell EFILive my OS should support those PIDs?
January 8th, 2007
TAQuickness

do you have the appropriate supporting PID's selected (right click RAFIG and select more info)
January 8th, 2007
Tordne

I tested this also, and as soon as you select that OS all the Idle PIDs change to invalid. I asked Paul about this last night and it appears to be a problem with a lookup file that later OS unfortunately.

This will be corrected in the next update.

In the meantime I would recommend logging GM.DYNAIR and creating a Desired Airflow MAP using that PID to get your Desired Airflow table in line. This is what we used to do before the RAFIG PID, and this works very well also IMO.
January 8th, 2007
diynoob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordne

I tested this also, and as soon as you select that OS all the Idle PIDs change to invalid. I asked Paul about this last night and it appears to be a problem with a lookup file that later OS unfortunately.

This will be corrected in the next update.

In the meantime I would recommend logging GM.DYNAIR and creating a Desired Airflow MAP using that PID to get your Desired Airflow table in line. This is what we used to do before the RAFIG PID, and this works very well also IMO.

OK, thanks Tordne. I'll change my map accordingly.

DYNAIR looks like an absolute value of calculated airflow... I assume I just need to use the absolute values reported by this PID and plug them into B4307? (e.g., it's not a value that I need to paste/add or paste/multiply)

:master:
January 8th, 2007
Tordne

Correct, those values are applied straight to the table. Just make a filter that has only Idle data, or have the car stationary when doing the idle tuning.
January 8th, 2007
diynoob

Sweet, going out to try this now.

:cheers:
January 8th, 2007
diynoob

The car was still warm when I started it, so I only got two cells of DYNAIR -- but both of them consistently showed 1.5ish lbs/min for a while after startup. Since I only had the hottest two cells I just changed any value below 1.5 to 1.5. This has solved most of my idle issues. Thanks!!! :master:

At this point the car is perfectly streetable without any further changes. I am no longer worried that it will just stall coming out of the throttle. Whereas before I was seeing 600rpm sweeps around idle (as low as 400 and as high as 1500 from a 900rpm idle) I am now seeing 200rpm sweeps on occassion. Sometimes it just finds idle perfectly.

Is the data returned by RAFIG different enough from DYNAIR that I should expect RAFIG to clean up my idle totally, or should I go from where I am now on to mild changes to the cracker and follower?

My car has never driven this good before!! :cheers:
January 8th, 2007
TAQuickness

Key thing is if you are happy with it. For grins, when RAFIG is working, you may want to log it for comparison sake.

Otherwise, I would move on to the cracker and follower.
January 8th, 2007
Tordne

RAFIG and the DYNAIR should be in the ball park of one another. Learning should take care of any difference.

Glad it helped in the mean time anyway ;)
January 10th, 2007
Loudmouth LS1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordne

I tested this also, and as soon as you select that OS all the Idle PIDs change to invalid. I asked Paul about this last night and it appears to be a problem with a lookup file that later OS unfortunately.

This will be corrected in the next update.

In the meantime I would recommend logging GM.DYNAIR and creating a Desired Airflow MAP using that PID to get your Desired Airflow table in line. This is what we used to do before the RAFIG PID, and this works very well also IMO.

Hey man, i'm still trying to get my idle in line, how would I make that map, i'm still learning everything and am still a little confused with how the maps work?
January 10th, 2007
Tordne

1 Attachment(s)

Map is attached.
Attachment 1202
January 10th, 2007
Loudmouth LS1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordne

Map is attached.
Attachment 1202

You guys kick ass!!!! So I load that map and then log sittin in the driveway (hot or cold or after driving around a bit when my idle problem starts?) and take the numbers from that and input it into {B4307} table? Basically my idle problem is after drivin the car around a bit when I put it into neutral/park, it starts surgin up real high back to normal, up real high back to normal, so on! Before I got EFILive and was logging with atap, I noticed when it would do that (was still using maf and right now maf is still off for ve tuning and not sure if i'm gonna put it back on or not), that it would dip to a diff fuel trim cell, it would go from ftc 19 to ftc 13, I also noticed something else weird, instead of .4% throttle position, it would show like 1.6%, is it possible my iac valve is sticking or something? Cuz it usually starts after I get on the car, if I don't get on it past 1/2 throttle it'll be fine.
January 10th, 2007
Tordne

Leave you car to get nice and cold then record the log from cold start to max operating temp (stationary) and then apply the values to the Desired Airflow table.

For the TPS.. Have you moved the TB set screw? If so you will need to do a TPS reset.
January 10th, 2007
Loudmouth LS1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordne

Leave you car to get nice and cold then record the log from cold start to max operating temp (stationary) and then apply the values to the Desired Airflow table.

For the TPS.. Have you moved the TB set screw? If so you will need to do a TPS reset.

Thanks dude, i'll do that tomorrow when I get home from work, as for the TB set screw, yes it's been moved and yes it's been reset. I've always seemed to have this nagging problem of the idle bein good except after I drive the car around a bit and go over like 1/2 throttle, then it will idle up a slight bit while in gear, and when put in neutral/park it starts surging like crazy. I first thought it was the throttle blade sticking open from vacuum or something, but I have a return spring on it and it still does it, so dunno if it's in the tune or a bad iac valve or what, kind of gettin burnt out tryin to fix it, cuz nothing has been working! But I will do the logging with that map tomorrow, make the changes and see if it fixes it, that would be totally awesome if it did!!!

Just wanna make sure, I am doin the tps reset correct, right, key on, unplug tps, key off, wait 10 seconds, plug back in, key on? Think that's how I do it.
January 10th, 2007
Tordne

The car will be full temp when you get home from work. Get up 20 mins earlier and do it in the morning ;)
January 10th, 2007
Loudmouth LS1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordne

The car will be full temp when you get home from work. Get up 20 mins earlier and do it in the morning ;)

Hahaha, she's not a daily, I drive my work van to work, am a plumber by trade. Oh, and I think my neighbors would wake up and have a heart attack if I started the car early in the morn, ahhahaha!!!
January 10th, 2007
Tordne

Well, you know what they say about people that assume :help2:
January 10th, 2007
Loudmouth LS1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordne

Well, you know what they say about people that assume :help2:

:funnypost:

Yeah, she's pretty much a weekend warrior/race car, I do drive her around a lot though, that's why the idling issue bugs me so much!
January 10th, 2007
Big Kahuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loudmouth LS1

Just wanna make sure, I am doin the tps reset correct, right, key on, unplug tps, key off, wait 10 seconds, plug back in, key on? Think that's how I do it.

I do the following.

Unplug the TPS switch, key to on and then wait for 5 - 10 secs or till the chime starts. Key off then plug in the TPS switch. Away you go.
January 11th, 2007
Loudmouth LS1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Kahuna

I do the following.

Unplug the TPS switch, key to on and then wait for 5 - 10 secs or till the chime starts. Key off then plug in the TPS switch. Away you go.

That may be how I do it actually, I can't even remember, hahaha, but i'll give that a try, thanks.
January 29th, 2007
billyjo

Can someone post a pic of this map, when I download it I get it's corrupted or not a valid efi file.

Thanks,

Bill
January 29th, 2007
Tordne

It looks exactly like the B4307 table itself. The data used is the Calculated Airflow (GM.DYNAIR).

That attachment still downloads fine for me :eek:
January 29th, 2007
billyjo

I'm not sure why this is so hard for me to understand but if I have this correct in the map properties should be:

Data-Desired IAC Air Flow (Grams/s)
Column-Air Flow Grams/Cyl-Speed Density (Grams/s)
Row-Engine Coolant Temperature (C)

Thanks,

Bill
January 29th, 2007
Tordne

NOPE :sad:

DATA: Calculated Air Flow (GM.DYNAIR)
COLUMN: Calculated Air Flow (GM.DYNAIR)
ROW: Engine Coolant Temp (SAE.ECT)

If you have trouble I'll just email it to you :)
January 30th, 2007
billyjo

I got it now, many thanks.

Bill
February 26th, 2007
BowlingSS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tordne

Map is attached.
Attachment 1202

I would also like to look at this map to compare it with mine but I get error when saving the zip file.

Bill:beer:
March 4th, 2007
Redline Motorsports

Quote:

Originally Posted by BowlingSS

I would also like to look at this map to compare it with mine but I get error when saving the zip file.

Bill:beer:

TTT!
October 9th, 2007
Kevin Doe

Quote:

Originally Posted by diynoob

Will RAFIG/RAFPN work fine with the SD settings from AutoVE still loaded?

Nobody seems to have answered this question? Anyone care to comment. Thanks.
October 9th, 2007
joecar

Yes it should work fine.
October 9th, 2007
Kevin Doe

Thanks Joe!