With the amazing response I got asking about the early Vortec to 411 PCM conversion I figured I would ask this.
What does it take to convert a 1998 LS1 T/A to a current 411 PCM to allow for proper 2/3 bar SD tuning?
Thanks guys!
-Kenny
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With the amazing response I got asking about the early Vortec to 411 PCM conversion I figured I would ask this.
What does it take to convert a 1998 LS1 T/A to a current 411 PCM to allow for proper 2/3 bar SD tuning?
Thanks guys!
-Kenny
I believe it's as simple as re-pinning the wiring harness and loading a COS.Quote:
Originally Posted by KAZ MotorSports
So far in my "research" that is what it seems.
I need to do some searching on how to flash a VIN#, express van fuel segment, etc.
Work in progress...should be interesting. :music_whistling_1:
Any luck with anyone over at LS1Tech.com? The tech forum has one or two people who have swapped pcms I believe.
LS1tech had an amazing amount of information about this. Doc and Rick at Alchemy posted alot of info about this and another gent (who I forget the name right now) had every pin in/out for the swap listed.
I am halfway through the pin swap with 2.5 hours invested actual hands on. I decided to label each wire with a label maker and I think that is taking longer than if I just swapped pin for pin.
I will try pin for pin on my own vehicle...customer's vehicles are not to experiment on without permission! :book:
Glad to hear you're making progress. :)
You're correct, do it right, step by step, no shortcuts... that's the quickest way to do it... :cheers:
HelloQuote:
Originally Posted by KAZ MotorSports
Meant to give you a call today, sorry we missed your call. Give us a call tomorrow, and ill try to get ahold of you as well. We have done quite a few of these for F-Bodys and Corvettes all over the country :)
Rick
www.efialchemy.com
I posted this up quite some time ago. If you are going to do a pin by pin, it makes it easy.
AL
http://www.chipsbyal.com/convert98/
Hey guys,
I am going to go back through the wiring this morning.
Rick...no worries. After I go back through the wiring I will give you a shout if I am having "issues".
Al...that is an amazing document you put together. I was wondering if the order was to allow for pin by pin moving looking at the order, but my first thought was, "who would take the time to break it down that way?" Obviously someone dedicated to making another person's life quite a bit easier. THANK YOU...if no-one has said it to you yet!
Quick question...may sound dumb to some, but I am in the learning curve here so bare with me please.
Are all the 411 PCM's the same? Is this year specific for the PCM? The reason I ask is because I have a pin in/out layouts for 3 different vehicles. 1996 Vortec, 1998 Vortec, and then this swap 1998 T/A. There are differences in pin definitions between them for "where they go" in the 411.
Is it the OS that defines which pin receives/sends the sense data?
Thank you for the education!!
-Kenny
The ECM can be reflashed to many different OS and tunes. The vortec and LSx use the same OS, but with night and day options swapped on the tune.
You need to pin it for whatever motor its going to run. I am guessing an 02 LSx motor. Toss that vortec stuff to the side for now, its just making it more confusing for you.
It is a 1998 LS1 motor with a 12200411 PCM using Al's conversion charting...I am in the process of completely gutting the harness(s) at the "T" in preparation to make it look all pretty. Obviously I will not tape anything up until I have it running...but this is what I should have done to start. Hindsight is always 20/20 right?
No offense but...my question was not really answered. Is it the OS that determines what sense in/out is at which pin for the PCM? Is Al's wiring layout for a specific OS and make model that needs to be flashed into the 411 after the repinning? Or can a 2002 Manual T/A COS-3 and cal be flashed in?
Yes I am making this more confusing than it needs to be and the Vortec sheets are far from sight now...but I like to be taught exactly what I am doing and why. Not just a "do this and you are done."
-Kenny
Kenny,
This is my understanding:The OS and calibration may define some of the pinouts.
- the 411 PCM hardware defines which inputs/outputs are bound to which pins on the red/blue PCM connectors [this is not quite right]; I believe all 411 PCM's are identical;
- the OS defines the "features" (i.e. which calibrations/tables are available);
- the calibrations define the "operating characteristics" (i.e. the values for the various tables);
Al's pinout document is for the LS1 00/01/02/OCS3/COS5 OS's running on the 411 PCM [...Al, excellent doc... :cheers:].
If you're thinking about COS5, then you will want to flash in OS 12212156 as this allows easy migration to COS5; i.e. copy all your old tables to 12212156 and get the car running properly; then the jump to COS5 is very simple.
Cheers,
Joe
Edit: see blue.
IMO, it is MOSTLY the OS, but some of it will be the tune also. Reason I say this is there are some power differences between the vortec and LSx pins. They use the same OS, yet different tunes.
If you wire it like Al's... At glance it looks good to load the 411 with Cos3 and 00/01/02 LSx. It will not work for a 4.3 s10, vortec 5.7, 5.3, etc.
take a look at holdencrazy.com. It has alot of stock and modded tunes. You can see what PCM came with what OS, and what tune.
Ah, ok, so that means some of the hardware is generic and the OS/calibration binds it to a specific pinout... I learning stuff everyday...
Yes, Al's doc is for 411 with LS1 01/02/COS3/COS5... I'm not sure about 00 but may be also.
COS3 is based on several of the 00/01/02 OS's.
COS5 is based on the 02 OS.
So basically, is this how it goes:
- the PCM hardware defines some pinouts;
- the OS and/or calibation define some pinouts.
I edited my 2 posts above to indicate this.
I'm hunting for the doc/xls that showed the differences. I cant seem to find it on my 2 works or laptop. Hopefully its on my home pc and I can share it later.
Reviews/comments are welcome (I want to get good info here)... :cheers:
OK...I am still pretty-ing up the wires and I think I found why I had no comms...hopefully I did not fry the PCM (not a big deal I have 3 more on the bench) with my ignorance and tired mind yesterday.
I Al's .doc at the bottom it states that Red C1-60 BRN, Blue C2-19 PNK (PCM IGN Feed), C2-58 PPL (Serial Data), and C2-20 ORN (PCM BAT Feed) remain in the same locations. I labeled them as stated above and plugged everything in...not paying attention to the COLOR code swap, just putting them to those pin locations!! :music_whistling_1:
If the PCM is not powered, told to switch on, or have a serial data link it makes no wonder why I could not communicate with it. :doh:
I will bench test it here in a few to see if I killed it. Any tests other than loading .cal files to see if it is cooked due to my ignorance?
Try logging data for various sensors... and check for DTC's.
ok. I downloaded an 02lsx pinout, and compared to my 02vortec pinout.
Main differences seem to be which injector is plugged where. Also, the Lsx has coilpacks which vortec doesnt. There are a few other minor things like egr, airpumps, etc that one has, other doesnt, etc. But all main sensors plug into the same spots.
Where is the back-flip emoticon??
I have comms! I have fire! I feel like I have it all right now!! :banana:
THANK YOU TO ALL THAT HELPED!!!
This one took much longer than it should due to my tired brain yesterday and having to back-track today, but you guys helped me emmensely!!
Beers are on me if any of you are in the CO Springs area!
My gracious and sincere thanks,
-Kenny
Cool...:cheers:
What ended up being the problem (I want to mentally file away for future reference)...?
Congrats!!
Another for future reference.
LS1 to L31 differences.......
I put these in there proper place and wah lah. :banana: Tired brain fart I guess. Now it is time to play!Quote:
In Al's .doc at the bottom it states that Red C1-60 BRN, Blue C2-19 PNK (PCM IGN Feed), C2-58 PPL (Serial Data), and C2-20 ORN (PCM BAT Feed) remain in the same locations. I labeled them as stated above and plugged everything in...not paying attention to the COLOR code swap, just putting them to those pin locations.
ok, so to add to more confusion.
I have found out that there is a 7.4l(L29) motor that uses the 0411 with the same OS as the LS1 and L31.
But yet the pinouts are different. Even inside of that, depending upon what the L29 was issued in, the crank trigger, and pinout is different. So it goes deeper then ECM and OS.
Hmmm... so the calibration binds the pinout.
Dale do you have a copy of the tune file or VIN from this other 7.4 (L29)engine?
Al
Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
Hay Joe,
There is a parameter table called installed options matrix which is tied into the platform code that has much to do with the pin out options. The platform code is number from 1 to 10 and on the other axis there is a swag of options to either enable or disable.
You find things like the lean cruise option and a few other things in there.
This is one area that will change the pin out in a PCM.
Chees
Mick
G'day Mick,
That table is only visible using the factory software tools...?
It would be interesting to have access to it... ;)
Cheers
Joe
:cheers:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MICK
Joe,
That table is available to who ever includes it into there definition template.
I see it in TC software.
Here is a snapshot of the table from a 02 vett Z06.
There is also a parameter constant to select the platform code.
Yes...makes things interesting if your chasing LC on a US operating system but that is another story....:angel_innocent:
I'm sure you get the drift.
Cheers
Mick
Mick,
Very interesting indeed (hmmm, I see...)...
I wonder if there is an option for running MAF/MAFless...?
(the reason I ask is that when failing the MAF, the resulting DTC's seem to inhibit some of the trans features like adaptive shift learning).
Cheers,
Joe
:cheers:
Guys,
I truly wish I could post the dyno charts for this car, but I have been sworn to secrecy until after he runs it at the strip. What a change from the HP Tuners 2 bar conglomeration of crap for the 1998 PCM to this. As soon as I get the go ahead from the client I will post up the before and after graphs.
My much appreciated thanks to all who led me down this path! You guys helped me be the hero on this one!
Best,
-Kenny
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by joecar
I see a speed density parameter option in the constants for the V6 only.
The V6 platforms I have seen run up to 140kpa with a S/C option as well.
There is quite a difference in the V8 platform.
One can only assume that the Maf calculations are very important in the trans shift patterens with respect to calculated load and learning on a OEM platform.
Cheers
Mick
Mick,
Oh, we also found that failing the MAF seems to disable misfire detection.
Joe
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipsByAl
Sorry, havent been back on sense I posted this. I found a PCM out of a k2500 truck, got it in yesterday. Havent had time to scan it due to graduations.
Plan to in next few days and try to submit it to holdencrazy.
Ive been told the crank signal between the 7.4 in the k2500(4x) and crank signal 7.4/utility trucks(24x) is different.