E38 no start issue

Hi Guys, I have recently transplanted a December 2013 VF Commodore L77 engine into an earlier VS Commodore complete with 6L80 trans.
I'm using V7.5.7 build 281 version... must update soon.
I've noticed there are many differences to the earlier VE model with many tuning variables missing.
I have read and tried the various Vats threads here
I have wired the start relay and selected apply to ground along with No to clutch depress
I usually dont wire the start relay with manual trans, but with auto this is the only way to I see that you can use P/N switch.
So i have a no crank situation, along with no spark or injector pulse using injector node light.
I have full flashed the Vats patch with different vats settings
Using the scan tool, I have cranking rpm, and all sensors seem ok, but no bpw, which suggests I have crank reference
I am using a LS1 type oil pan with no oil temp etc, and have changed this parameter to Calculated
I have deleted the AFM or DOD and selected No in that parameter
I am not using Body control Module at present but I will be in order to use the TUTD
The complete conversion including gas pedal and shifter (which are different to VE) came from the same vehicle and everything is communicating ok
I am tempted to switch back to VE OS, as I have done many of these same conversions, but this is the 1st with using all VF model, and half the reason of the conversion to begin with, so that I am up to speed with latest stuff for conversions
Does anyone have and ideas or suggestions please.

Some of the STATExx pids may indicate the reason for no start.

No crank? What are you using as your crank signal?

Also you didn't mention which OS you are using and where it came from.

The OS is 12656930 and Cal is 12656929
Since I first posted, I have tried many things, and actually realised after reading the sticky post that I may have had the crank signal setup wrong, where I had the pin from x1-52 as the ground for the start relay. When that wasnt working, I just earthed the relay, and then it would crank, whereas now I have added the crank signal to the trigger side of relay and changed G1220 back to Apply to 12v. I'm not sure what this does, and cant see why it would change anything, as it would get 12v only when I turn the key, and I dont get how this would work as Park Neutral switch with the 6L80.........
There are several parameters missing compared to earlier OS's
At present I have set these to
G1204 No
G1205 No
G1206 No
G1209 No
G1210 Type 2
G1211 Yes
G1214 1
G1215 1
G1216 No
G1213 No
G1217 15
G1220 Apply to 12v
I have applied Vats patch and done full flash a few times
I have flagged as many DTC Types and Mils that I think apply in this conversion
I can here fuel pump priming and using original older style VS fuel pump
I can see rpm when cranking, but no bpw, and no injector node flashing or spark plug firing
There is a pid called Anti Theft State but I cant display it on dashB. Maybe I need to use V8 for that????

Also I have ignition at injectors

2014 VF OS?

Normally the crank signal comes via a CAN message after security verification etc. What input to the ECM are you using to apply the crank signal?

X1-52 and as I was saying I dont get how this works, because whether it is connected to the crank trigger side of the relay or not, providing that the earth side of relay is grounded, it will crank regardless of what position the shifter is in. That part is obvious, but whats the point of this crank signal if its not required in a manual trans???
The only thing I can think of is the ground for the relay in earlier Commodores runs through P/N switch as well as the BCM, and so if not using a BCM then you also have to ground the start relay directly. It may be that the late BCM to suit this L77 also controls the ground of the start relay via Can bus between ecm, tcm and bcm via X1-1 but needs this crank signal to initially satisfy it.
My original thoughts were that this crank signal at X1-52 could be used to ground the start relay, providing you had G1220 set to apply to Ground, otherwise there is no way to provide a P/N without running a BCM
I will be running a BCM so that I can control the TUTD and hopefully later even the Cruise Control.
There are many differences on the VF compared to VE Commodore considering the push start, electric everything as well as electric power steer, and the VF uses a different BCM and different gas pedal, and workshop manuals are not available (unless someone knows something I dont....) but I am lucky enough to have a great Holden Dealer nearby where they let me loose on one of their computers after the boss signs me in to the special VF stuff
I'm yet to work out the VF TUTD, and this is why I havent added the BCM yet, because if I cant get this running I will switch it back to VE and earlier OS with earlier BCM and pedal which I do know how to make TUTD work.
My aim of this project is to nail the VF setup and this 12656930 OS and I can see in the wiring it has a few advantages such as hi and lo vss ref, tacho, mil, etc which earlier VE doesnt have.

Also forgot to mention that it surprises me that this crank signal could prevent the engine from running
I have no spark or injectors.
I could understand it firing and not continuing or some other form of life....
I am tempted to disconnect all transmission stuff, as I have never had this trouble with manual conversions, or if using other trans in say Nissan patrol...
It does seem like a VATS issue and I am satisfied I havent stuffed up the harness, which by nature is the first thing you start doubting..... lol
It does worry me that some of the parameters are missing such as G1219.
I hate cranking engines even though this one has done 20k but it does have new cam and lifters, luckily it is not a flat tappet cam, otherwise I would have wiped a lobe off by now...

The P/N & R signalling is via the CAN on A6's. Like the crank signal. You could try setting G1220 to not used. Odd that the Start Relay Diagnostic enable/disable is missing - G1219. This diag from memory simply looks for trickle current through the relay. The pedal is physically different, with yet another different pedal connector, but functionally the same.

I am a little confused, so forgive me if my comments are off target.

In the 2014 E38 OEM configuration the Starter Relay Type is set to "Apply to 12V". When the key is turned to the Start or Crank position, 12 volts is sent to the BCM. If the BCM and ECM "agree" that it is OK to engage the starter motor, the ECM will then send 12 volts from J1 pin 52 to the low amperage side of the Starter Relay. The low amperage side of the Starter Relay is grounded in the wiring harness (chassis ground). This closes the Starter Relay, engaging the high amperage side of the relay, and sends 12 volts to the starter motor.

Without a BCM, the ECM will never activate the Starter Relay. Changing the Starter Relay type to "Apply to Ground", changes the ECM output (pin) that is activated (in this example grounded) if the BCM and ECM "agree" that it is OK to engage the starter motor.

The VATS patch will allow the engine to run without a BCM, but the Starter Relay will need to be rewired for direct (or manual) activation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taz

In the 2014 E38 OEM configuration the Starter Relay Type is set to "Apply to 12V".

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by gmh308

TOdd that the Start Relay Diagnostic enable/disable is missing - G1219.

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If you set the starter relay type to 'Not Used' then it never checks the relay therefore the diag test is not needed.

No prob mate, Taz.

VE's for some reason use a 12V output to run the crank relay. Other GM cars use a ground to operate the crank relay (pin 67). Maybe its an Australian design rule or something that specifies 12V vs grounding. Or maybe it saved some wire ;). Or maybe just the design engineer's preference.

In either case, it wont operate/crank without the full theft deterrent system in operation. ECM + BCM + Dash + Anti Theft Device + Key. Crank signal via CAN. No CAN message to ECM to crank, then no crank.

VATS patch doesn't replace that daisy chain, it just lets the coils and injectors work without the VATS "box" being "ticked" in the ECM - and the engine starts if it is cranked.

So just direct connect your starter motor - no ECM - with the right interlocks of course. :)

12656930 works fine in a conversion with VATS etc done. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GMPX

If you set the starter relay type to 'Not Used' then it never checks the relay therefore the diag test is not needed.

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DTC 0615 still pokes its nose out Ross ;).

Correct:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taz

The VATS patch will allow the engine to run without a BCM, but the Starter Relay will need to be rewired for direct (or manual) activation.

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Ok, so now starter relay is to be activated by directly (i.e. other than BCM)(with correct P/N interlock of course), thanks gmh308 and Taz.

OK thanks heaps for your replies guys, especially considering that its Christmas/New Year.... BTW Happy New Year to you'all and the EFI Live crew.
This start relay part is quite interesting. The only diagrams I have of the E38 stuff are U.S. diagrams I found on the net way back, and although I have most of the VE and VF stuff, it only shows ecm to sensor stuff, and not schematics of the start relays etc, whereas the U.S. stuff does and it shows that pin X1-52 provides ground to the start relay, so I "assumed" this applied to our Australian E38's.... so from what you guys are saying, this is how our remote key stuff works (turn key in VE and button in VF) where it sends signal to BCM and if the ecm and bcm agree, the bcm sends 12v to the relay, instead of the earlier models where the 12v came directly from the key to the start relay, and considering this in an automatic, then if the shifter is not in P/N then the bcm and ecm will not agree (via CAN) via X1-1 from TCM to ecm, which means no crank. Does this mean that the Ground at the start relay is hard grounded in VE's and VF's.??? or is there more to that part. Does anyone have a diagram of this???
Also from what you are saying, even if I run a BCM, there is no way to run a P/N safety switch to prevent starting in gear, which is a legal requirement??? unless you fabricate a mechanical switch to shifter.......????? Are you sure of this, or can a Patch be made for this Ross????

OK, the next issue Im having is, I cant seem to get the Anti theft state to read.
I can activate the Anti Theft State GM.VDT, but it doesnt show up in Other PIDs on DASH.B, so I am unable to read if I have actually disable VATS
Am I doing something wrong???
The other thing was I posted up what I had set the parameters to in VATS and Crank. I had most set as NO in this attempt, as I have seen quite a few "other" tunes and this seems to vary a lot, and from what I have read on here, it seems Type 2 or 3, and VATS Patch along with Full Flash is the main requirements????
Is this true, as I have tired just about all combos, but I guess if I could see VATS State, it may then prove I have something wrong in my harness.

I am sure I have it right, as I have made many VE style custom harnesses (mostly based on VZ style) but in this case I have used the VF harness and have the ecu neatly tucked in between the battery and the fuse box which means the X2 plug has not been touched, and the VF harness already has the X1 plug included in the engine harness, so there was only minor mods made to the overall harness to adapt to the VS main body harness utilising the VS fuses and relays, which is how I have done the other VE to VS conversions, but these were manual trans, and I had no problems.

It would be a "nice to have" to have the patch you mention, though it would be a big investment in code time for zero return. ;)

All the answers are here anyway. Try not to over think this.

Why chase the anti theft state? Would wager that Ross' wizard VATS patch turns a corner way before that. :)

Not sure what you mean by this gmh308, if the U.S. stuff had grounded start relay, surely the code is there already, and it makes using a 6L80e much more user friendly as well as passing the required legalities when trying to licence conversions, hotrods etc
And the anti theft state would let me know if I was barking up a dead horses what not..... lol, by letting me know I had met the required conditions, and help me with diagnostics.

Update, today I discovered that F9 Data shows Theft Deterrent stuff... amazing.... and because these states are a little confusing, I decided to full flash my original factory tune back in with no mods at all so that I could compare. Then checked out F9 again, and it was exactly the same, so I full flashed my Vats tune back in.... no difference... so then started making changes and even radical changes to the Vats and cranking stuff, which aslo made no difference, so I full flashed it as well.... no difference
So then I changed my laptop and flashscan over to my LS1 in my 32 roadster with no vats and checked F9, and interestingly it was nearly exactly the same apart for VTD-VTD1, VTD Fuel Control read No, whereas all E38 comparisons read Yes. Attachment 19120
Does anyone have any experience with this??? and what I should expect these states to read on a E38

To make that clearer, has anyone actually managed to pass the Vats Disable on VF Commodore conversion using the original OS 12656930 for a 2014 L77 model and then taken any notice of the F9 states in the Scantool.

( I'm viewing this via my phone )

F9 would be the Data tab in the V7 scantool, correct...?

And you're viewing the states/flags of the pid GM.VTD...

IIRC, there are some no-start reason flags in some of the pids GM.STATExx, these may or may not be helpful.

( I can look in the scantool when I get home to my PC )

From memory, if you are logging GM.VTD .... then VTD-VTD1 (Vehicle Theft Deterrent Fuel Control) will be "No" if VATS is active, and will be "Yes" if VATS has been disabled (patched).

Update, Hey Taz, the VTD appears to be the other way around..... I'm 50% certain of that..... hehe
The good news for me is, I have it running, but to do so I jury rigged another VZ style custom manual harness I have made for a customers Patrol, and used the same service #12633238 2010 model E38 with OS 12639270 and did all the mods required, vats patch, full flash etc and as soon as I checked the VTD-VTD1 it read no, which was kinda exciting, and as soon as I hit the key it fired up spluttered a bit, then lost injectors, and came up with P0690 from memory and the VTD1 also changed to yes.
I masked the engine relay code, and flashed that back in, and it now runs good enough for now, with VTD1 remaining on NO.....
I reckon I tried every combo and applicable mask I could find and could not get a murmur or VTD1 NO out of the 2014 OS 12656930.
I havent given up yet on the VF setup, and will work systematically through it and do process of elimination, but the big question is...
Has anyone done the OS conversion yet successfully in a vehicle and not on the bench????
Or is it just easier to use the (tried and proven) VE OS's....
I'm a bit concerned with the VF trans calibration matching the earlier VE OS, even though both are serv# '238's..... any clues???
Thanks for all your replies, and I hope what I'm writing is helpful to all.

Apologies if I wasn't clear in an earlier post - the 12656930 OS was VATS patched and run in our test vehicle in the road with an A6 trans & E85. ;) Can't drive a bench. :). Only DTC's were a new O2 sensor code - to do with response rate of the O2 sensors, and the P0615 Start Relay test.

Thanks gmh308, I will persevere......

Update... problem solved.
After much stuffing around using a 2nd harness and then pinning (almost) everything out, and then doing process of elimination, it turned out to be a broken wire in the cam sensor lead. The crashed donor car took a hit on the front left, and although it didn't cut the harness, it busted the earth wire in the crash.
This was my bad, as I know that these engines will run with the cam sensor unplugged, so I "assumed" this sensor wouldn't be a problem..... wrong.... it will run with 3 wires unplugged but not just 1.... and this is enough to cut fuel and spark....
Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated
I have it all finished and running very nice now
Next step is to get the VF Body Control module to run the TUTD, has anyone done this yet??? and/or got the pinouts from BCM to use.
Or is it just easier to use the VE BCM

No CAM DTC Hooter?

Thanks for reporting back your finding.

No cam code at all gmh308, also it was the signal ground wire.

Weird. Normally if ECM sees no CAM with Crank, DTC pops up. Echoing Joecar, thanks for reporting back your finding. Great to know!

Yes it was weird, as it flagged other codes, which I was able to sort out, but with this broken cam ground wire to X2-66 (E38) was enough to prevent the ecu from giving the OK to activate/command fuel and spark, and yet no codes or reasons in VTD, which was frustrating..... so it was back to old school.... pull it all apart.....
I will put a photo up later of the mess, and what a L77 looks like running on 2 different combined and opened up wiring harnesses... not a pretty site.. lol
Thanks again for help

Not pretty, but at least I had it running.....
Attachment 19189
and found the problem
Attachment 19190

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hooter

Update... problem solved.
After much stuffing around using a 2nd harness and then pinning (almost) everything out, and then doing process of elimination, it turned out to be a broken wire in the cam sensor lead. The crashed donor car took a hit on the front left, and although it didn't cut the harness, it busted the earth wire in the crash.
This was my bad, as I know that these engines will run with the cam sensor unplugged, so I "assumed" this sensor wouldn't be a problem..... wrong.... it will run with 3 wires unplugged but not just 1.... and this is enough to cut fuel and spark....
Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated
I have it all finished and running very nice now
Next step is to get the VF Body Control module to run the TUTD, has anyone done this yet??? and/or got the pinouts from BCM to use.
Or is it just easier to use the VE BCM

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Did you ever get the VF BCM pinout, or working?

I am still struggling with start relays with 6l80e, seems easiest to just run a microswitch on the shifter, but I do use the BCM, so is there a way to get nuetral safety and a reverse light electrically via the BCM? My efforts have achieved nothing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gareth12

Did you ever get the VF BCM pinout, or working?

I am still struggling with start relays with 6l80e, seems easiest to just run a microswitch on the shifter, but I do use the BCM, so is there a way to get nuetral safety and a reverse light electrically via the BCM? My efforts have achieved nothing

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I have a VF manual now if anyone needs bcm info, i will have the tiptronic sorted out soon enough. Im still struggling with the neutral safety

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gareth12

I have a VF manual now if anyone needs bcm info, i will have the tiptronic sorted out soon enough. Im still struggling with the neutral safety

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Somehow, I don't get notified of new replies... Yes the neutral safety is quite basic on the 6L80e...
Bare in kind, that I am talking about conversions.... it works a bit different in actual VE and VF Commodores
So from pin 3 in the TCM, it runs to pin X1-01 at ECM, but this needs to branch off to the ground terminal at your start relay.
Then in software switch
G1213 depress clutch to No
G1219 disable
G1220 apply to ground
From memory theres a couple of trouble code flags to change as well, but basic.

If you are using an auto ECM but you are not running a 6L80e with it, its best to ground the start signal at X1-01 to fool ECM to think its in Park

I'd be interested in VF BCM pinouts that allow TUTD to function
Ive done the VE ones, but never persevered with VF, mainly because I have a separate module that allows the use of any shifter.