how do i get my car not to idle so high

i just reinstalled a tune that i had done on my car last year, but wasnt happy with, mainly due to how high the car would idle when i first started it & also when i come to a stop. when i pull up to a stop sign & have the clutch in, the car will idle around 12-1300 rpm for a few seconds before settling down to normal idle(850-900 or so). also if i'm sitting at a red light facing down hill, if i just want to drift down the hill the car will also idle up & stay there until i come to a complete stop. i would like to make the car not do this anymore. what do i need to adjust or do to get it to idle like i want? i can try to post the tune if anybody needs to see it. thanks.

Have a look at this: idle tuning.

And please do post your tune if that's ok with you, and some log files.

:)

how do i post my tune? i gotta be missing something because i cant get it to show up

In the reply, Go Advanced, Manage Attachments, + Add Files, Select Files,

then browse to your file, select it, click Open,

then Upload Files, Done,

then write something in the reply,

then Submit Reply.

Attachment 8410

here is the tune i'm currently running

LSX:

To put it nicely, a lot of your Airflow parameters are unusual (looks like you have modified quite a few).

1. Lower Idle to 800.
2. Redo Desired Airflow. Those numbers look very high.
3. Thats a lot of airflow in the TC at lower Rpms. Take a look at the Idle Tutorial for Tips...http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....ul-Info-Inside
4. Double-check your TC Decay Rates.
5. Double-check your TF Airflow and Decay Rates.

I have yet to see a car that will not benefit from following the Idle Tutorial exactly as it is written. You basically have way too much air in every Idle Parameter in your tune. Especially with your TC Decay rate set at 0. It will never decay with your settings.

I would just start over. I mean that respectfully. Looks like you did some changes (history) in your tune that might have gotten your Idle airflow off..Follow the Idle Tutorial. It actually works.

Good luck..

BadLSX, what mods on your car...?

the car has 1 7/8" headers, TSP MS-4 239/242 @ .050, ford 30# injectors, underdrive pulley, ported throttle body, racetronix fuel pump & hotwire kit.

ok, i took the tune i posted above & changed them to stock. i copied & pasted them from a stock 02 M6 tune from holdencrazy. i then loaded this back into my car & now it doesn't idle up like it originally did, however, the car does try to stall from time to time. i've read & read & now i think i'm more confused about this than ever. should i just start with a stock tune with modified IFR for my 30# SVO injectors? as far as the RAFIG, i've read about that on here for hours & still don't understand what i need to do. i can't figure out what all i need to log to do it or even where some of the stuff is located in the Scan tool. i want to be able to tune this car because i'm tired of paying these "professional" tuners from reputable shops for less than stellar results. they show me dyno numbers & say it drives as good as it can for the mods & kinda talk their way around question i would ask. the tune i posted above was a dynotune from a very highly recommended tuner & i have another tune from another reputable tuner that left me a little disappointed.

BadLSX:

I know you are probably frustrated right now. Idle is pretty hard to nail down.

Normally injector fueling must be done first. I am not the expert on the SVO Injectors, so I will that alone for now.

Normally with a cam that big it just wants a little more desired airflow. So, try this. In your stock tune just add 2 g/s of air to Table B4307. Leave all the other Airflow Parameters alone for now.

When it gets confusing, I always just try one thing at a time. Break it down into steps, or it will get overwhelming. I would try that first and report back.

ok, should i do this with a completely stock tune? if so can i just copy my IFR from one of my other tunes to the stock file? the IFR is the one thing that does seem to be consistent between these tunes i have had done on the car.

We will have to get one of the Injector experts on to directly answer your Fueling question.

Yes, I was talking about adding 1-2 g/s to Desired Airflow on a stock 02 M6.

My cam has 'only' 10 degrees of overlap (228/232 110 +2)..but it Idles perfectly with the Table attached below. Of course I have done fueling and spark, but Desired Airflow is a 'biggie' to getting a cam to idle..

ok, thank you. i think my biggest fear with all of this is screwing something up & having something bad happen to the motor. i've got more money & time in this car than i care to remember & just don't want to hurt the motor. i'll try doing what you said Shawn, but my only concern is the bigger injectors dumping way too much fuel in with the stock IFR tables.

I understand.

You can always PM Joecar, 5.7ute..many experts on injectors on this forum. Granted they may all be busy, but if & when they get the time they will help you out.

I am still on stock 28's, but altitude is helping me out. So, I may be doing injectors myself in the near future. So, I would just do a 'shout-out' or PM one of them...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WeathermanShawn

I understand.

You can always PM Joecar, 5.7ute..many experts on injectors on this forum. Granted they may all be busy, but if & when they get the time they will help you out.

I am still on stock 28's, but altitude is helping me out. So, I may be doing injectors myself in the near future. So, I would just do a 'shout-out' or PM one of them...

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ok, thanks Shawn. the injectors seem to complicate this whole process for me. i wish i would have kept the stock ones in it, but went with the bigger ones because the guy who originally dynotuned the car said the stock injectors would be my limiting factor. thanks again, i really appreciate the help

Ok, lets go one step at a time...

Read these first:
showthread.php?7866-What-to-Tune-First
showthread.php?4821-Calculating-Injector-Flow-rate

First step is to accurately measure rail pressure (under load) and calculate the IFR using the spreadsheet and the rated flowrate/pressure of your injectors.

Quote:

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How do you measure pressure at load...?

If your engine doesn't spin up to easy (LS1/derivatives spin up too easy), then a throttle snap (very quickly to WOT and back) is sufficient while observing that a pressure gauge in the fuel rail shows no deviation.

Could measure rail pressure on a dyno at full load thru-out the rpm range.

Could tape up a pressure gauge to the windshield and go for a drive (drag strip or freeway on-ramp) letting passenger observe gauge.

Could install a pressure sendor/sensor and wire it to FlashScan's analog input (there's a tutorial for this).

If pressure drops under load, then either there is some problem in the fuel system (restriction, filter, regulator, pump, wiring) or the fuel system doesn't have sufficient capacity.

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Also, try to get as much data as you can for those injectors so you can adjust the injector "characterization" tables also (i.e. the other injectors tables e.g. Small Pulse Adjust); some of this data is not necessarily available/accessible, but try to get it... the objective is to accurately model your injectors.

When calculating IFR using the spreadsheet:
- goto the EFILive tab,
- insert injector's rated flowrate (30 lb/hr),
- insert rated pressure (43.5 psi),
- insert your measured rail pressure (should be 58 +/-1 psi),
- save the spreadsheet file (for future reference).

Then look at the generated table... use the column that has the same units as B4001 as viewed by you using the tunetool (e.g. g/s or lb/hr); copy that column and paste it into B4001.

Attachment 8438

joecar, i read everything you posted for me & also did as you said for the injector spreadsheet. it turns out that what i did with the injector spreadsheet is a little different than what was in my previous tunes. i did copy & paste it into B4001. i also made some changes to the stock tune to compensate for my different gearing & some stuff like that. i belive i'm ready to give the AutoVE a try. i'm attaching the new tune that i'm starting from stock for anybody to look at & see if it looks ok to try running in the car.

Bad:

Hopefully the Injector Update will work for you.

I found an old tune from SSpdDmon (the Author of EFILive's Idle Tuning Tutorial). It has almost of the Idle Correction, Learning Airflow, Spark, TC, TF, and Follower Airflow Rates that he addresses in the Tutorial.

I never think it is wise to ever 'plagiarize' a tune, but if you get stuck you could probably benefit from a lot of his techniques. Like I said it is a tune I copied from a few years ago, so if all else fails it is a start.

Good luck..

thanks Weatherman. i hate asking all these dumb questions, but i guess i have to start somewhere. when i read some of the material on here, i just end up getting myself completely lost, especially with all the different terminology. hopefully i can get somewhere with tuning this car, its just gonna take me a lot of time to do so. i'm hoping that it will be tuned right since i'm doing it & next time it shouldnt take me so long

Make sure your wideband has done a heater and free air calibration (if this is applicable to your wideband)... and sanity check it to make sure it's working right.

When you setup for AutoVE make sure that WOT/PE will be sufficiently rich (I make PE B3618 equal to the high MAP value in the CFOL B3605 table).

Also make sure B4206 is disabled (it should be already).

When logging for AutoVE, obtain better data by applying throttle in a progressive/smooth manner (less data gets filtered out by the BEN filter)... use brakes and hills to increase load, use higher gears at lower/mid rpms... don't look at laptop/FlashScan, pay attention to road, drive safe.

Bad, when doing AutoVE with unknown injectors add Manvac, battery volts, GM.DYNCYLAIR & IBPW1 or 2 to your main AutoVE pids if possible.(keep channel count under 24) At a minimum add at least IBPW1 or 2 & GM.DYNCYLAIR. This when added to the log will help filter out some potential problem areas. (min Injector pulse limits for example)

joecar, i just did a calibration last week on my LC1. i did do AutoVE, however i didn't see 5.7Utes post about adding a couple PIDs until i returned from a drive. should i get rid of the log i just did & start over with the additional PIDs? hitting some of the cell values is hard to do, let alone 50 times. lol the car did run extremely rich throughout the entire RPM range & it's not happy about idling at all unless you are giving it gas. i gotta figure out how to do the filter now from the AutoVE. what all am i trying to filter out? i'm definitely having a easier time learning today, than i have in the past. i wanna thank all of you guys again for your help.

Bad:

Is there a MAF physically present on this car? Do you have still have your narrowbands?

AUTOVE is a great tuning tool, but I will warn you it is hard to do if you are new at this. All techniques involve a lot of filtering, driving with a steady throttle etc. Open-loop may ultimately be superior, but I have seen newer tuners struggle for months to get it down.

If you are rich everywhere, getting proper Idle will be virtually impossible. I say attach a Tune & Log, and lets see where you are.

here is a log of the AutoVEAttachment 8441

here is the tune set up for AutoVE

the car does still have a MAF & the narrowbands are in place Weatherman

Wow, yea it is extremely rich..:confused:.

Well assuming the Injector calibration went O.K., I guess you just have to follow the AUTOVE utilizing BENS and Filters, and do it methodically.

One thing that really concerns me, is the following attachment. It appears that at Idle as your car begins to stall (too much fuel), and you slam the Throttle open..you are getting massive KR.

I can not say I have ever seen KR at Idle, but I am assuming it is valid. Unless the over-fueling is causing a KR response.

I will look at more later, but that is my first look..

BadLSX, I wouldnt be disregarding the log since you didnt have those pids present. They are mainly for preventing some issues at idle & low airflow prevelant with cams & larger than factory injectors.
What happens is at x airmass the pcm calculates you need y amount of fuel for the commanded AFR. Using IFR (+ some offset etc)the pcm then calculates how long the injector needs to be open for. Since a cam reduces the cylinder airmass at low engine speeds the injector pulsewidth is substantially lower than standard. Add to this the increased flow rate of the bigger injectors & the pulsewidth must be shortened even further to inject y amount of fuel.
Once a minimum pulse limit is hit, the pcm wont allow the injector to be open any less than this amount, and no change to the VE table etc will change this. So in effect you will keep dropping VE & the wideband will keep reporting rich. By logging IBPW you will be able to filter out any data where the IBPW is equal to {B4003} minimum pulse width + {B3701} battery voltage offset & prevent this from occuring.

what should my next step be then? would i be better off starting with a tune that was already done on the car? this way the car will idle & won't need the VE table bumped as much making the car run so rich.

Well, you may need more help than my assistance. I am more proficient with Closed-Loop Tuning (O2's) and I use the MAF.

Having said that, I think you can successfully tune your car via AUTOVE, but like I said just go one step at a time.

If your AFRBENS are accurate, the following attachment is what you need to multiply the VE Table by. I.E, you have about 40% too much fuel everywhere. I am still worried it is the Injectors, but you could always apply the BENS to the VE Table..per the AUTOVE Tutorial..

Badlsx. Pull 10% out of your VE table in the 400 & 800 rpm row. 20% from 1200-3600 & 10% from 4000 up.
This will get you a lot closer for starters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 5.7ute

Badlsx. Pull 10% out of your VE table in the 400 & 800 rpm row. 20% from 1200-3600 & 10% from 4000 up.
This will get you a lot closer for starters.

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ok, should i do this with the tune i'm using for the AutoVE that i just posted a little bit ago. if so, i'll do that tonight & then try it in the car again tomorrow with the added PIDs you suggested i use

The tune you took that last log you posted with. It should put you within 5-10 percent in most areas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 5.7ute

The tune you took that last log you posted with. It should put you within 5-10 percent in most areas.

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ok, i lowered it just as you said to do & i'll try again tomorrow. is the log i posted no longer any good to use? i'm just curious how bad i did for never doing any of this before.

Always keep your first log. Its good to compare.

I still do not understand how you got 15 degrees of KR at Idle. Lifter chatter? Did it make 'funny' sounds as it bogged and stalled?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WeathermanShawn

Always keep your first log. Its good to compare.

I still do not understand how you got 15 degrees of KR at Idle. Lifter chatter? Did it make 'funny' sounds as it bogged and stalled?

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yeah, it was making all types of noises that i never heard it make before. it kinda freaked me out a bit.

Hear any loud booms?

I agree with keeping all your logs. It is always good to look back & compare.
It appears that the initial 14% increase that the AutoVE tutorial recommends was not necessary for your tune. That increase is what was causing the car to be way too rich. You may actually be better off by reducing the whole VE table by this amount instead of the changes I said earlier. This is because there may be too much difference between the cells that the pcm's interpolation will make dialling in too difficult.
What I do is use cruise control to keep the data central in the rpm band. For example for the first section set cruise at 1200rpm, then 1600 rpm & so on. This prevents a cell that is too far out from having too much influence on the gathered data. It limits the map areas that you can get data for but you can then start working outwards from there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BadLSX

yeah, it was making all types of noises that i never heard it make before. it kinda freaked me out a bit.

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Can you describe them at all...?

BadLSX,

Are you logging using BBL or laptop...?

Either way, get rid of the analog wideband pids AFR_LC1x and BEN_LC1x since they confuse the situation.

With serial wideband connection, the pids are WO2AFR1, WO2LAM1, WO2EQR1, WO2ST1, CALC.BEN1.