Low Vacuum at Idle - in the tune?

I have low idle vacuum, and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. My latest thought is that its in the tune. I'm seeing ~80 kPa at idle, however during part throttle cruising I often see vacuum in the 30-40 kPa range.

Here is what I've done.

I took off the intake manfold and replaced all 8 port gaskets, throttle body gasket, injector o-rings, MAP sensor seal. I started the engine and allowed it to warm up. My idle vacuum was still very low (or high kPa). That lead me to remove and plug the two PCV type lines. First I removed and capped the one from the valve cover. Then I removed and plugged the one from the lifter valley. No change in vacuum, so I reconnected them. I inspected my manifold for cracks also. I feel very confident that there is no leaks in the intake system now. I have drilled my throttle body plate to a larger hole. I went 1/32 larger diameter than stock. I did this because I couldn't get the idle steps low enough at warm idle by only using the set screw/tps reset method.

I have attached my latest log, where I was logging some AutoVE stuff to get the low rpm area tuned. Basically I'm driving around in 1st through 4th gear just crusing. You can see the vacuum characteristics when I'm crusing in that log. There isn't a good idle in that log, since I'm havin trouble having it come into idle when I stop, so I have just been feathering the gas for the time being. I'll also attach an idle log so you can see idle vacuum.

My latest thoughts are that the low vacuum at idle is due to idle tuning issues. Does the tune have a large effect on idle vacuum? Possibly increasing timing and decresasing the desired airflow table will bring vacuum back to normal? I'm not sure, just throwing ideas out there. During cruising the vacuum seems very good and normal. Here are my cam specs:

Its a TSP MS4: 239/242, .649"/.609" on a 111 LSA.

My engine is a 2004 GTO, so it has the LS6 manifold. My exhuast consists of 1 7/8" long tubes to a true dual 3" exhaust through an x-pipe. The intake consists of a dual 3.5" setup, each going to a filter behind holes in the bumpercover. I am running in open loop speed density right now. I have no MAF sensor at all.

If you require any more details, please let me know.


Attachment description:
SDAutoVEFixed_0004.tun - Tune used on those logs.
Log_0033.efi - Idle warmup log. From cold engine to operating temp.
Log_0035.efi - Cruising log. 1st through 4th gear, about 10 minues worth. I was logging to do some VE mapping.

And one more attachment. Here is my proposted next tune I'll be uploading on the car.

I applied the BEN factors, and did quite a lot of manual smoothing, then used the smoothin button afterwards. Then I added 3% to those cells to make sure I'm not over a value of 1.0. I'd rather take baby steps.

Then I modified the table B3605 to command richer values in the high kPa (high load) columns.

I also returned the B3618 curve to stock GTO settings. This will allow for safer ratios during some of the high rpm, high load VE mapping.

I also made a few small tweaks here and there as well.

What sort of vaucuun did you expect with a big cam like that , 80-90kpa is about all I would expect.

Use the custom OS and turn TPS mapping on , thats what its designed for

I have very little expereince with large cams and V8s in general. I come from the DSM tuning world, where cams are relatively small and tame.

From what I read, and people have said, my 80 kPa isn't enough vacuum. Maybe they just weren't aware how agressive my cam is.

I cannot use the COS5, I have a 1MB flash, its a PCM from a 2004 GTO. The only COS that I can use is COS3, and I was instructed to get a good tune with the stock OS, then upgrade later.

You can probably eek out a few more kPa of vacuum at idle by increasing the idle spark advance. Use the bidirectional controls while logging to find the timing needed for best idle quality.

A bump in idle rpm would go a long ways as well.

I'm confused. Why can't you use COS5?

Hmmmm.... Might be a good reason to switch to COS5 (TPS VE table).

COS5 is only available for 2001 and 2002 operating systems (512kb PCMs). He has a 1Mb 2004 PCM.

Justin

That's only 6"Hg of vacuum... that cam is big, but I would have expected a little more vacuum.

Edit: Hmmmm.... maybe that's all the vacuum you'll get.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dc_justin

COS5 is only available for 2001 and 2002 operating systems (512kb PCMs). He has a 1Mb 2004 PCM.

Justin

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My confusion deepens:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4683&page=2 See posts 17 & 18

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=2599&page=5 See post 48


I haven't tried moving to COS5 but that has been my future plan, in conjunction with nitrous... :nixweiss:

EDIT: The '04 GTO uses an Aussie build, remember. (w/ Lean Cruise & all...)

There are only 2 COS5 operating systems. 01290005 and 02020005. Both are 512kb OSs.
The 04 GTO uses a 1mb PCM. You cannot put a 512kb OS on a 1mb PCM.

You will not be able to use COS5 with your GTO unless/until Ross creates a 1MB version of that OS.

:(

Ross???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joecar

That's only 6"Hg of vacuum... that cam is big, but I would have expected a little more vacuum.

Edit: Hmmmm.... maybe that's all the vacuum you'll get.

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You pretty much summed my thoughts up exactly. Everything else seems to be well, the VE table mapping is going well with the AutoVE. Did another few iterations. With each iteration I'm going to higher and higher rpm rows.

My 240/244 111 cam idles around 70-75kpa at 900 rpm.

With your idle set at 800, 80kpa ballpark isn't all that surprising or unusual, and IMO the idle speed is a little too low for that size cam. Your kpa was right where I'm at while it was warming up and bouncing around 900 and 70-72kpa.

I have found my car's "sweet spot" as far as idle speed, it simply likes to settle into idle at 900 and does so reliably. I've tried 850, and although I can get to idle there, it hunts and stumbles a lot more than it should, much like you're experiencing, and it's just not worth the hassle to set it that low (or lower) and have to babysit it.

:cheers:

i've seen 65-70kpa MAP from larger cams, so you might have a leak. dont expect this thing to behave well under 1000 rpm though. first make it idle at like 1200rpm just because it's much easier, and then try to make it work at lower rpm if that's what you want.

LOL i must have a really small cam.
i only have 40-45 kPa at idle.
and no it isn`t stock.

Im at 70-75kpa at idle with a 242/252 in a 346. It idles good at 850-900 at 25* and doesnt not ever surge or hunt at idle,im switching to COS5 soon.

I would take the 0-1200 rpm spark tables> idle, high and low octane- to a flat 24* all the way across. With your spark jumping around like it is, the idle will never settle in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce Melton

I would take the 0-1200 rpm spark tables> idle, high and low octane- to a flat 24* all the way across. With your spark jumping around like it is, the idle will never settle in.

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x2

It shouldn't take more than 24~26* for that cam to idle in neutral. You may have to set the idle at 1,000rpm due to the amount of duration. That'll be tricky for fueling as it'll stick you smack in the middle of the two VE rows (800 & 1,200). I'd suggest running an OL-MAF tune. Using a WB, I'd probably target an idle AFR of ~15.5:1. If you're trying to get the car to work in closed loop, that may be part of the problem as you're more than likely flooding the engine with fuel.

Some other tricks you can do is to tweak the idle spark over/under correction tables and bump up the 0 & 400rpm base timing cells around idle. Check the old idle tuning thread in the tutorail forum stickies. :)

With my most recent tune I'm getting it in the 65 & 70 kPa cells. I'll post up the tune once I get a little happier with it.