Allison AL5 Shift Parameters

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April 8th, 2016
TravisF

Allison AL5 Shift Parameters

Can someone explain the part throttle shifts to me. I have a few questions.
Why is Table B (4low) roughly the same speeds as the rest. Wouldn't 4 low be much lower. I read in a post from years ago that table B and D are switched. Is this true.

I am trying to take out the delayed 5-4 shift. Nothing seems to change the way it downshifts. Example 4-5 upshift I moved KMH down roughly 20%. Then 5-4 downshifts I have 4KMH lower than those speeds. Truck still needs 70% throttle or better to shift. Lets say the truck shifts into 5th at 50mph. Then after it shifts I start pressing the throttle going up a hill. Truck is doing maybe 55mph. Takes almost 75% throttle until it shifts 5-4
April 8th, 2016
THEFERMANATOR

The 4 low and tow haul tables are reversed. This has been brought up SEVERAL times. Those of us who mess with them just know which one is which. I've also found a pretty big glitch in the 02 OS where the 4-5 shift in tow haul is 5MPH different than what is in the table. And there are THOUSANDS of tables in the TCM we CANNOT see with EFILIVE, so BEWARE making ANY changes. A change to a table we have access to can change a few dozen tables we DON'T have access to(or even can see), and can cause SERIOUS transmission damage. For the most part I have found what we have access to only really works well for adjusting half throttle and up shift tables. It is all that 95% of the people adjusting the shift points want/need to adjust, so it works for the majority. For the rest of us, we just have to work around it as best we can, we can't expect the folks at EFILIVE to spend HUNDREDS of man hours breaking down code in the TCM to make changes that only a few people really need to make. Those with the software to really dive into tuning in them can't because of legal reasons from the GM sale of ALLISON, so be thankfull for what we do have.
April 8th, 2016
TravisF

What I want seems fairly simple. When towing, I'm going down the road, increasing speed and in 4th gear, not much throttle. At 50 MPH at hardly any throttle I want the truck to shift into 5th. It just hangs in 4th until I go a little faster. I hate it. Then once I'm in 5th, I want it to downshift when I push the pedal down. It doesn't shift until 755 or more throttle. I hate it. Now that I know the tables are reversed, this should be easy. I modified all my TAP's and TAV's. It shifts super smooth now. I always had a slight hang up in 3-4. Decreasing by 200ms really made that shift nice. I have a Transgo JR and it always made the 3-4 harsh.
April 9th, 2016
THEFERMANATOR

Hate to burst your bubble, but as soon as you let off the throttle, it's going to pop back into 4th gear, and will be SLOW to go back into 5th gear. We do not have access to the closed throttle tables, so no matter what you put in at 0%, it may or may not work. Also depending on the year you're working on, the speeds in the table may be mismarked. So don't be surprised if it doesn't respond. I've heard from others that teh LLY tune responds better than teh LB7 does to changes, but the early OS's don't like to listen.
April 10th, 2016
Chavez91

Ill keep an eye out for closed throttle tables. I've been digging through the AL5s while I wait for my T87 to show up. Specifically the 15196784 OS. Ill let you know if I ever come across anything and test it successfully.
April 10th, 2016
GMPX

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

The 4 low and tow haul tables are reversed. This has been brought up SEVERAL times.

Can you please point me to a thread mentioning this or just let me know what OS this applies to? Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

And there are THOUSANDS of tables in the TCM we CANNOT see with EFILIVE, so BEWARE making ANY changes.

That is true and applies to pretty much any controller, I don't think it is reasonable to expect any tuning software to put in 'THOUSANDS' of tables for every user, it would literally takes months and months of work to do that if even possible.
April 10th, 2016
Chavez91

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

The 4 low and tow haul tables are reversed. This has been brought up SEVERAL times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMPX

Can you please point me to a thread mentioning this or just let me know what OS this applies to? Thanks.

I hadn't heard of this either. But Ill test it for ya this week and if it is a problem, ill let you know what OS's I have that it applies to.
April 10th, 2016
TravisF

Finally got it. Shifts great now. Up shifts at 50. Downshifts 5-4 at 30% or higher. Stays in 5 when I let off the throttle. Exactly what I wanted. Thanks for letting me know about table b and d being switched. My camper thanks me now.
April 10th, 2016
THEFERMANATOR

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMPX

Can you please point me to a thread mentioning this or just let me know what OS this applies to? Thanks.

That is true and applies to pretty much any controller, I don't think it is reasonable to expect any tuning software to put in 'THOUSANDS' of tables for every user, it would literally takes months and months of work to do that if even possible.

I know I've posted about the tables being mislabled, as well as the 4-5 shift table before. So far for me anyways, all of the LB7 5 speed OS's have the tables reversed. The pattern B tables are labled as 4 low, but are actually tow/haul, and pattern D is labled tow/haul, and is 4 low. Last I seen posted on it was that you had changed them around, and then somebody said it was backwards for them, so you changed it back and left it. https://forum.efilive.com/showthread...+haul+reversed (theres MANY more threads here and on several of the DURAMAX boards about it) And about the 0% throttle tables not responding, I'm not the only one to encounter it either. https://forum.efilive.com/showthread...+haul+reversed

The 02 15172881 has a serious glitch in it. Under D5003 pattern B, the tables are labled just like the 01 OS(15175854), but the shifts do not occur there. They occur at the same shift points as the 03-04 LB7 OS(15184109). This was the only table I found this way in it, but it sure had me scratching my head trying to figure out a 4-5 5-4 shift issue after I ran my normal script over it that I use on all the other LB7 TCM OS's.

And I understand about not having but so many tables. We can't ask you guys to break down and add in tables that only a handfull of us would actually use. It would be nice to have the 0% throttle shift/lockup tables though as it's annoying as all get out driving around town, and everytime I let off the throttle it downshifts at 30MPH, or having my converter unlock whenever I drop below 55 no matter where I set it to stat locked at.
April 10th, 2016
Big Mike

Here's another one when I had trouble with the 4Low and T/H tables being swapped between builds as well. Really threw me for a loop back then I remember. :mad:

https://forum.efilive.com/showthread...son-bug-in-139
April 10th, 2016
GMPX

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

I know I've posted about the tables being mislabled, as well as the 4-5 shift table before. So far for me anyways, all of the LB7 5 speed OS's have the tables reversed. The pattern B tables are labled as 4 low, but are actually tow/haul, and pattern D is labled tow/haul, and is 4 low. Last I seen posted on it was that you had changed them around, and then somebody said it was backwards for them, so you changed it back and left it. https://forum.efilive.com/showthread...+haul+reversed (theres MANY more threads here and on several of the DURAMAX boards about it) And about the 0% throttle tables not responding, I'm not the only one to encounter it either. https://forum.efilive.com/showthread...+haul+reversed

Instant headache reading that :bawl:

"Last I seen posted on it was that you had changed them around, and then somebody said it was backwards for them, so you changed it back and left it."

So that person was wrong? I am happy to accept that was the case. We don't have access to any of these vehicles so we can only change them to what user feedback tells us to. I'll gladly change it again ONE last time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

The 02 15172881 has a serious glitch in it. Under D5003 pattern B, the tables are labled just like the 01 OS(15175854), but the shifts do not occur there. They occur at the same shift points as the 03-04 LB7 OS(15184109). This was the only table I found this way in it, but it sure had me scratching my head trying to figure out a 4-5 5-4 shift issue after I ran my normal script over it that I use on all the other LB7 TCM OS's.

That doesn't make sense to me sorry, you'll need to explain it better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

And I understand about not having but so many tables. We can't ask you guys to break down and add in tables that only a handfull of us would actually use.

This is why we have the .cax system in place for all controllers we support.....for the small percentage that want to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

It would be nice to have the 0% throttle shift/lockup tables though as it's annoying as all get out driving around town, and everytime I let off the throttle it downshifts at 30MPH, or having my converter unlock whenever I drop below 55 no matter where I set it to stat locked at.

I'm going to have to ask some tuners who can tune those tables if they will share the info with us, I don't think I could go back to something I last worked on in 2008 (I think), too much water under the bridge.
April 11th, 2016
THEFERMANATOR

3 Attachment(s)

Not sure but I know that all the versions I have used since 2009 have had the pattern B labled as 4 low when it is tow/haul, and pattern D labled as tow/haul when it is in fact 4 low. There used to be a sticky over at DP saying they were mislabled at one time because it had caused so much confusion.

Quote:

The 02 15172881 has a serious glitch in it. Under D5003 pattern B, the tables are labled just like the 01 OS(15175854), but the shifts do not occur there. They occur at the same shift points as the 03-04 LB7 OS(15184109). This was the only table I found this way in it, but it sure had me scratching my head trying to figure out a 4-5 5-4 shift issue after I ran my normal script over it that I use on all the other LB7 TCM OS's.

Quote:

That doesn't make sense to me sorry, you'll need to explain it better.

In the 15172881 OS under the D5003 table, pattern B has the shift points listed as the same as in the 15175854 OS. It does not shift at those shift points, but it does shift at the shift points listed for the 15184109 OS which are lower. If you try to make changes to the shift points, it causes it to short shift, and basically go into 5th at the 5-4 downshift speed.

You can see from the screen shots, pattern B, that 01 and 02 are the same, but the 02 shifts at the 03-04 shift points, not the 01's shift points.
Attachment 19492 Attachment 19493 Attachment 19494

And not many tuners adjust the 0% throttle tables, most only concern themselves with the WOT or half throttle and up as most are happy with the lower shift settings. I needed to adjust mine because of my lower gears I put in which caused issues with it not wanting to shift and hold lower gears as common speeds. Also I don't like waiting until 55 for it to lockup, so I lowered it down to lockup at 50, but everytime I let off the throttle at 55 or slower, it still unlocks. I know others have experienced this, but I've also heard that it is only on the LB7 TCM OS's as I've heard from a few that the LLY OS's seem to stay locked up and respond for most(have also heard from some that they don't work, haven't tried adjusting an LLY to find out).
April 12th, 2016
Chavez91

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

And not many tuners adjust the 0% throttle tables, most only concern themselves with the WOT or half throttle and up as most are happy with the lower shift settings. I needed to adjust mine because of my lower gears I put in which caused issues with it not wanting to shift and hold lower gears as common speeds. Also I don't like waiting until 55 for it to lockup, so I lowered it down to lockup at 50, but everytime I let off the throttle at 55 or slower, it still unlocks. I know others have experienced this, but I've also heard that it is only on the LB7 TCM OS's as I've heard from a few that the LLY OS's seem to stay locked up and respond for most(have also heard from some that they don't work, haven't tried adjusting an LLY to find out).

Been working on this for my LLY (stock 3.73 Gears) no matter what the TCC lock tables were set at, mine would always unlock at 38MPH regardless (in normal mode). So been on the search for the past week. And I think I found something in my OS. (15196784). I have it set to Unlock @21 and looks like it hits its mark. (The speedo is just a hair off) Let me know if this is what you were after also. Mind you I have my Shift points changed. I go into 5th @ 40 MPH. And that blip @ 40 was just it wanting to downshift because I was in it about 80% throttle lugging it to prove the TCC was still locked.

Ill get some datalogs in the morning tomorrow to show it staying locked also if you want. But Im stoked. Cause i hate the TCC unlocking when i dont want it to.

And just in case you're wondering, the TCC Release tables for gears 2 - 5 are set at 16 MPH. Not 21. But I have more testing to do tomorrow. Even though Im excited, its late and I'm off to bed. lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EssMLLaVI4w
April 13th, 2016
THEFERMANATOR

All of my shift points are lowered in mine. With 3.42 gears, stock LB7 shift points were right at points like 30 MPH for the 3-4, 45 for the 4-5, and lockup doesn't happen until 55. So I lowered them down for the 3-4 at 28, 4-5 at 39, and lockup at 50(tried 45, but it didn't like it).
April 17th, 2016
Gunrok 02 LB7

Quote:

Originally Posted by THEFERMANATOR

The 4 low and tow haul tables are reversed. This has been brought up SEVERAL times. Those of us who mess with them just know which one is which. I've also found a pretty big glitch in the 02 OS where the 4-5 shift in tow haul is 5MPH different than what is in the table. And there are THOUSANDS of tables in the TCM we CANNOT see with EFILIVE, so BEWARE making ANY changes. A change to a table we have access to can change a few dozen tables we DON'T have access to(or even can see), and can cause SERIOUS transmission damage. For the most part I have found what we have access to only really works well for adjusting half throttle and up shift tables. It is all that 95% of the people adjusting the shift points want/need to adjust, so it works for the majority. For the rest of us, we just have to work around it as best we can, we can't expect the folks at EFILIVE to spend HUNDREDS of man hours breaking down code in the TCM to make changes that only a few people really need to make. Those with the software to really dive into tuning in them can't because of legal reasons from the GM sale of ALLISON, so be thankfull for what we do have.

I've only just started to alter the shift points in my truck, and I must say everyone here has been very informative and I've learned a lot of things that I probably would not have known other wise. That being said, the part throttle 4-5 shift table for the 02 OS might not be reversed. When my truck is in T/H, it shifts at/near the pattern D speeds. I haven't specifically tested the 31.3% and higher, but if I'm light on the throttle, it will shift dead on 55. I believe the 68 is also correct but I would have to go verify that as I don't normally push the throttle that far with the horses in tow. I know in T/H my truck has only ever shifted at two different speeds, I just can't remember the higher speed.
April 17th, 2016
Gunrok 02 LB7

I stand corrected. As previously stated, tables B and D are reversed. The speeds in column D are the correct speeds for T/H. I don't have 4wd so I can't check the speeds in B. This is in the 4-5 shift table. I didn't try the other tables.
April 18th, 2016
n2brk

Def reversed - thanks Ferm! I was chasing my ass on an LMM TCM tune that would not work right until I found this thread and moved my T/H changes over to the 4low table!

Wally