resized injectors

[joecar]

Jon @ FIC, welcome to the forum...

[SSpdDmon]

Hmmm...I have Motron 60's with a lower fuel pressure than stock and a flat IFR table. I wonder if going back to 58psi and some custom injectors would solve my minor issues.?.? It also may come in handy if you notice bank 1 running leaner than bank 2 like it tends to do.

How much can you open up a stock 28# LS1 injector to?

[jonfic]

Hmmm...I have Motron 60's with a lower fuel pressure than stock and a flat IFR table. I wonder if going back to 58psi and some custom injectors would solve my minor issues.?.? It also may come in handy if you notice bank 1 running leaner than bank 2 like it tends to do.

How much can you open up a stock 28# LS1 injector to?

i have made the injector flow 60 @4 bar.. we never really punch them that big, most guys go 48 then they buy the Siemens mototron like you have done. Got a proposition for you, be a Guinea pig, send them to me I will do them for free. Put them in and give me exactly what you changed from the stock ls1 program. On your IFR table start at 59 and slope to 63.5 instead of flat lining the table.
call me 770-888-1662

[Slowrc]

Wecome to the forum Jon! You said it better than I could have.

[Redline Motorsports]

Here's some facts that maybe will help us all understand whats going on. First of all if you take the Bosch 3 injector and take the discharge plate off of all sizes from 24-42 you will find that the injector itself including coil are identical. Meaning If I put the different size injectors on a flow bench without discharge plates, the injectors all flow identical. There is no difference in any of these injectors as a valve. Therefore all Bosch does is make one injector for their EV6 series and puts different size holes in the plate. From a manufacturing standpoint this would be most cost effective for them. What this means to me is that being all the same injector except for color, I can do the same thing. We duplicate the hole diameter in all the different sizes, flow test and match them. To us, this is no different than Bosch doing it at the factory as far as performance etc. Us and many shops have been "modifying" injectors for years. We just happen to market it. I will prepare some videos in the next couple of weeks showing a modified injector flowing next to its original counterpart on the flow bench. This way you will see at various pulse widths the injector flowing in real time. Then make your own decision. Also with custom stuff we can give you an injector that is exactly the flow you need. In other words if you need a 56.5 lb injector at 4 bar I can give you that. I can also make 2 in the same set 58 for the two back cylinders that tend to have higher EGT's than the other 6. There are many shops and turbo kit builders using modified injectors with their kits. You probably have bought some but don't even know it. I also experimented with a few race shops using a modified original injector with out touching anything but the IFR table and slopping the injector the way we want. The result was a few more HP over a aftermarket injector with a tendency to have much better idle characteristics. If any of the shops are on line here your comments are very welcome, good or bad.
thanks

You are correct in your statements except there is more to an injector then its static flow rate. Using an OEM injector with known values is a plus as GM, or whoever, has done the flow data and profiled the injectors characteristics. The static flow rate is based upon an injector at 100 % DC. Short pulse adders, minimum pulse width, minimum injector pulse width and small pulse threshold are the ones that really come into play and idle/cruise control.

I don't see how a modified set of GM injectors can make more HP. Power is relative to the amount of fuel mixed with air and can be achieved with any injector if the calibrator is doing his job. I am not kicking down this as an option for an injector but merely stating that there are other parameters that need to be considered.

Once the PCM commands the injector to fire there is a surge in fuel that happens due to rail pressure rise. When you make the orifice plate larger, this surge becomes less and there fore requires a delay adjustment. What is that delay time on the injectors you provide?

I have had MANY cars come through my shop where 60#'s where installed that ran like crap. Just buy using the correct parameters noted above turned then into literally stock running cars. My point was know your injector well and many other parts of the tuning process will come together much better.

I have friends that work in the GM fuel lab and Siemans/Continental that have made this clear and helped us collect the correct data for a few of the injectors on the market.

Howard

[jonfic]

You are correct in your statements except there is more to an injector then its static flow rate. Using an OEM injector with known values is a plus as GM, or whoever, has done the flow data and profiled the injectors characteristics. The static flow rate is based upon an injector at 100 % DC. Short pulse adders, minimum pulse width, minimum injector pulse width and small pulse threshold are the ones that really come into play and idle/cruise control.

I don't see how a modified set of GM injectors can make more HP. Power is relative to the amount of fuel mixed with air and can be achieved with any injector if the calibrator is doing his job. I am not kicking down this as an option for an injector but merely stating that there are other parameters that need to be considered.

Once the PCM commands the injector to fire there is a surge in fuel that happens due to rail pressure rise. When you make the orifice plate larger, this surge becomes less and there fore requires a delay adjustment. What is that delay time on the injectors you provide?

I have had MANY cars come through my shop where 60#'s where installed that ran like crap. Just buy using the correct parameters noted above turned then into literally stock running cars. My point was know your injector well and many other parts of the tuning process will come together much better.

I have friends that work in the GM fuel lab and Siemans/Continental that have made this clear and helped us collect the correct data for a few of the injectors on the market.

Howard

you are 100% correct and at the same time maybe wrong.. I am not a tuner, I leave that to you guys. all I know is what the tuners feedback is. We have tons of these out there, with great results. The injector does not make the horsepower, no way, but, a properly tuned engine runs more efficiently. This is what makes the HP. Most of the mods we do are converting stock ls2 and ls3 to 42lb. The tuners use the same files as a 42 Bosch (the design 3 42 not the green top)and off the customer goes. On the big end 60 plus I would say fine tuning is critical to get all you can out of the mtr and at the same time have good idle and cruise characteristics. The biggest problem in data for all these injectors, not just ours, but all aftermarket injectors is finding the correct data.. Is most of the data compiled from the injector manufacturer? I think not. So, the more we can use the factory tables are we better off? your comments are really welcome!
Jon

[SSpdDmon]

i have made the injector flow 60 @4 bar.. we never really punch them that big, most guys go 48 then they buy the Siemens mototron like you have done. Got a proposition for you, be a Guinea pig, send them to me I will do them for free. Put them in and give me exactly what you changed from the stock ls1 program. On your IFR table start at 59 and slope to 63.5 instead of flat lining the table.
call me 770-888-1662

I'll have to keep you in mind. Problem is, I don't have 28's right now. The car came with SVO 42's, which weren't keeping up with my boosted setup and a 255lph pump. I've now got twin pumps on a hobbs switch and the motrons with an inline vacuum referenced FPR. I assume I could swap 'em out and cap off the vacuum ref. on the regulator - but I still have to find some first.

I'll keep my eyes open and if I find a pair, I'll be in touch.

On the other side of the spectrum, I'd be curious on how to find out info about the Motron 60's short pulse characteristics, their voltage offset characteristics, etc. Plugging that info in would be a hell of a lot less work and money. LOL

[jonfic]

I'll have to keep you in mind. Problem is, I don't have 28's right now. The car came with SVO 42's, which weren't keeping up with my boosted setup and a 255lph pump. I've now got twin pumps on a hobbs switch and the motrons with an inline vacuum referenced FPR. I assume I could swap 'em out and cap off the vacuum ref. on the regulator - but I still have to find some first.

I'll keep my eyes open and if I find a pair, I'll be in touch.

On the other side of the spectrum, I'd be curious on how to find out info about the Motron 60's short pulse characteristics, their voltage offset characteristics, etc. Plugging that info in would be a hell of a lot less work and money. LOL

thanks I will try to get that info for you

[mr.prick]

I`ve got a set of stock 28lb LS1 injectors!

I would love to dump my Lucas 42lbs. even though I finally got the
small pulse adjust to where I don`t run rich under decel.

[jonfic]

I`ve got a set of stock 28lb LS1 injectors!

I would love to dump my Lucas 42lbs. even though I finally got the
small pulse adjust to where I don`t run rich under decel.

the lucas 42 are about 48 in there.. I can do those bosch 3 anyway you want, your part of the deal is report how they work after you install them compared to the injectors you have. If you have a log tell me what DS your lucas are at. Lets see exactly what size you need. will do it for free just for publicity,
Jon