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Thread: '04 Saturn Ion LOG - lotsa KNOCK (false??)

  1. #1
    Lifetime Member Boost's Avatar
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    Default '04 Saturn Ion LOG - lotsa KNOCK (false??)

    My stock 2.2 Ecotec automatic with almost 124k miles. Logged some random PIDs that happened to be on the screen, so some of them aren't the most relevant.

    Picked up a consistent up to 5 degrees (!) knock retard on the low RPMs only under load. Could this be just rich mixture? Carbon buildup? Some false noise?

    Engine runs smooth, no hesitation felt and just ran an 11.0 second 1/8 mile, which is funny slow BUT impressive for bone stock and untuned. Hoping there isn't really so much knock on my little 'Tec :(

    Here is the log file, thanks for looking!
    Attached Files Attached Files
    '01 Z28 LS1/T56 - mild bolt ons
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8)
    currently chasing annoying electrical problem

  2. #2
    R.I.P Shawn, 1956-2011 WeathermanShawn's Avatar
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    Boost:

    You are running it with some incredibly high IAT's (144F). It is very hard to keep KR under control with temps that high. No matter how much Spark you pull back on your IAT Modifier(s)..I personally avoid 'punching' it when my IAT's are over 100F.

    If it is detonation KR, it is just decaying very slowly. Granted it does not have the typical sawtooth look..you tend to get one event..very slow decay. But if you run the same spark when it is 40F colder and no KR, you will know it is the high temps affecting your fuel burn.

    It also looks like your have an O2 sensor that went bad. Take a look at H02S21. It is not switching. Your LTFT's are through the roof on that bank.

    Perhaps try a new O2 sensor and repeat the run. Can you get more 'cold' air into the engine?
    2002 Black Camaro Z-28 M6 Hardtop 11.0:1CR 425HP/410TQ SAE (400TQ@3500RPM)
    200cc Heads, 228/232 110+2 Cam, 1 3/4" LT's w/catts, GMMG, Koni Shocks, Hotchkis Springs, 35/21 Sways, 17" ZR1's, 3.90 Gears Roadrunner PCM LM-2 Serial Wideband
    EFILive Closed-Loop MAF/SD Hybrid Tune..


  3. #3
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Does it have just one pre-cat O2 sensor...?

    The AFR and EQIVRATIO pids aren't the right ones, maybe try AFR_B.

    The DYNCYLAIR_DMA would the wrong pid also... might try CYLAIR.

    Are your IAT's correct...?
    Last edited by joecar; September 17th, 2010 at 03:52 AM.

  4. #4
    Lifetime Member Boost's Avatar
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    Thanks guys! Well, I thought I4s had just one bank therefore one "a/f" sensor and one "catalyst monitor? I will look. Also, we have some incredibly hot and humid ambient temps here, like 99F and 90% humidity, so that combined with a stock intake and heat soak in traffic, who knows. Maybe the IAT sensor is good. Will check that. Also have old oxygen sensors, plan on replacing the first one for better mileage, performance and accurate data.

    I will try a log in colder temps, with a new sensor Shawn. Also thinking of building a cold air intake. I can't believe that simply hot air is making my stock car knock! :(

    Thanks again!!!
    '01 Z28 LS1/T56 - mild bolt ons
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8)
    currently chasing annoying electrical problem

  5. #5
    Lifetime Member Boost's Avatar
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    P.S. : Yeah Joe I noticed the commanded AFR was way low so I ignored it. I will also set up a better PID selection next time guys!
    '01 Z28 LS1/T56 - mild bolt ons
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8)
    currently chasing annoying electrical problem

  6. #6
    R.I.P Shawn, 1956-2011 WeathermanShawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boost View Post
    I will try a log in colder temps, with a new sensor Shawn. Also thinking of building a cold air intake. I can't believe that simply hot air is making my stock car knock! :(

    Thanks again!!!
    I know Boost, its kinda depressing. Anything over 100F here and I can almost always get some pinging if I put my foot in the throttle too fast. Yes, you can alter your IAT Spark Table to no end, but then the car really gets lazy.

    Ironically I probably do for driving/tuning in winter here. It loves cold air! Maybe just too much of the fuel vaporizes at high temps?

    Enjoy your many vehicles!
    2002 Black Camaro Z-28 M6 Hardtop 11.0:1CR 425HP/410TQ SAE (400TQ@3500RPM)
    200cc Heads, 228/232 110+2 Cam, 1 3/4" LT's w/catts, GMMG, Koni Shocks, Hotchkis Springs, 35/21 Sways, 17" ZR1's, 3.90 Gears Roadrunner PCM LM-2 Serial Wideband
    EFILive Closed-Loop MAF/SD Hybrid Tune..


  7. #7
    Lifetime Member Boost's Avatar
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    Thanks! LOL I just have a Saturn and a Chevy truck personally, but I have tuned 50 vehicles so far and probably asked questions here about each of them in the process including the current '05 LLY I am doing as a favor for a Ferrari tech at my job. The idea is to learn so one day I can realize my dream of my own tuning shop and bring EFILive much much more business! Thank you guys for everything (Ross, Blacky, Andrew, Joe and many many more great folks like Shawn)

    P.S. - come to think of it I tuned my own personal '07 NBS truck with wet nitrous and my '06 LBZ Duramax that was dirty stupid fast for stock hardware also with EFILive - but those vehicles are long gone now... :(

    My little Vortec 4.8 and 2.2 Ecotec both have WELL over 100k miles on them and are daily driven and daily tuned please check out this latest video of them ripping up the Miami-Homestead Speedway drag strip, enjoy!!!

    http://www.streetfire.net/video/torq...ce_2050997.htm
    Last edited by Boost; September 17th, 2010 at 12:32 PM.
    '01 Z28 LS1/T56 - mild bolt ons
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8)
    currently chasing annoying electrical problem

  8. #8
    R.I.P Shawn, 1956-2011 WeathermanShawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boost View Post
    My little Vortec 4.8 and 2.2 Ecotec both have WELL over 100k miles on them and are daily driven and daily tuned please check out this latest video of them ripping up the Miami-Homestead Speedway drag strip, enjoy!!!

    http://www.streetfire.net/video/torq...ce_2050997.htm
    Nice!

    Looks like you guys had a fun night there. Looks like a decent track. Our closest track is basically on top of a mountain (~5800) with normal DA's around 7000-8000 feet.

    Thanks for sharing!

    ..Shawn..
    2002 Black Camaro Z-28 M6 Hardtop 11.0:1CR 425HP/410TQ SAE (400TQ@3500RPM)
    200cc Heads, 228/232 110+2 Cam, 1 3/4" LT's w/catts, GMMG, Koni Shocks, Hotchkis Springs, 35/21 Sways, 17" ZR1's, 3.90 Gears Roadrunner PCM LM-2 Serial Wideband
    EFILive Closed-Loop MAF/SD Hybrid Tune..


  9. #9
    Lifetime Member Boost's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Hey no prob, thanks a lot for watching! Actually all through my teenage years there was only Moroso (now P.B.I.R) , a full 1/4 mile in West Palm Beach 3 hours away. This resulted in lots of street racing in the "South", and 40 tickets and a 2 year revocation for me, and a little bit of jail time :( Now, we have Countyline Dragway between Dade and Broward counties, 30 minues away from anywhere in Miami - I was there on opening day http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfAl6dF47fU - that used to be a drug smuggling landing strip and illegal ATV racing spot for years, and recently, this Homestead 1/8 mile which I not only had the privilege of helping open (by volunteering as an expert tech inspector for the first weeks) but also supported a "trial" drag and drift event in 2004 to see if it could succeed as a public drag strip in addition to Nascar and other circle track races:
    '01 Z28 LS1/T56 - mild bolt ons
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8)
    currently chasing annoying electrical problem

  10. #10
    Lifetime Member Boost's Avatar
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    Hey guys / gals, I'm back on this topic. I still have the same '04 Saturn Ion 2.2 now with 10k more miles, and since there is no way to tune it (see other threads) I am satisfied to scan it and maybe modify the intake / exhaust systems anyway and just log data and learn. This time I connected as a Generic CAN ECM since that is more accurate than "tricking it" into another controller. I have 2 logs to share, the PID selection and other such are under development, I am looking at what works best and would like suggestions. The 1st one was a decent test drive but the PID selection was hurried and many are not valid. The 2nd log has much better PID selection but the test drive conditions were limited due to traffic. I noticed that just as Shawn said, KR was significantly reduced with colder IATs. I have switched from 93 to 87 octane since the original log and de-carbonized the engine.

    Thanks if you get a chance / care to look, I am looking for suggestions on how to set this up to reflect accurate info and help me possibly improve the efficiency even without tuning. (plugs / mods / fuel / etc.) Thanks!
    Attached Files Attached Files
    '01 Z28 LS1/T56 - mild bolt ons
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8)
    currently chasing annoying electrical problem

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