trying to wrap my head around E10

[WeathermanShawn]

efizjb:

If your VE/MAF/Trims are good, why not just change PE Fueling to an EQ of 1.20 or ~12.1 AFR. (Leave LC-1 as is).

Doesn't that accomplish the same thing? Closed-Loop will be lambda regardless, and changing B3601 to 14.13 will just give you more negative trims and get you to the same 'AFR' you need to be at with E10.

There may be up to a 4% airmass error, but if my logic is right you do not need to change your wideband settings or B3601 at all.

Guys & Gals is my logic correct?

Edit: What type of fuel were you using when you had the dyno? If it was E10 and your wideband was reading .875 Lambda, that would equate to a ~ 12.3 AFR. Your wideband may have been set for gasoline. If that is the Lambda where the dyno found the most power..then why change anything?

[5.7ute]

Increasing PE commanded fuelling will only cause an error as trims will be ADDED when going to E10 on a petrol calibration.

[WeathermanShawn]

Mick:

I think what has happened to a lot of Tuners in the U.S. is that they have calibrated a gasoline tune (14.63), but unknowingly the fuel type has been E7-E10 for quite a while.

So, probably the majority have already compensated for the fuel type in their airmass models. If you change B3601 to 14.13 your Trims will go more negative. The airmass has already been 'fudged'.

I am talking about tuners who already unwittingly had E10 in your tank but tuned for E0. Changing B3601 will require a corresponding change in the airmass models.

I would be willing to start a new thread and provide some sample logs, but I think people are either burned out on the topic or confused beyond belief!

[joecar]

...
but I think people are either burned out on the topic or confused beyond belief!

This is what I think is happening... this and the AFR way of thinking.

The alcohol content test mentioned above is a great idea.

[5.7ute]

Mick:

I think what has happened to a lot of Tuners in the U.S. is that they have calibrated a gasoline tune (14.63), but unknowingly the fuel type has been E7-E10 for quite a while.

So, probably the majority have already compensated for the fuel type in their airmass models. If you change B3601 to 14.13 your Trims will go more negative. The airmass has already been 'fudged'.

I am talking about tuners who already unwittingly had E10 in your tank but tuned for E0. Changing B3601 will require a corresponding change in the airmass models.

I would be willing to start a new thread and provide some sample logs, but I think people are either burned out on the topic or confused beyond belief!

No worries. I forget sometimes that we are a bit behind when it comes to ethanol fuels. (especially where I am)

[WeathermanShawn]

No worries. I forget sometimes that we are a bit behind when it comes to ethanol fuels. (especially where I am)

No worries here. This stuff will have you doing brain contortions after a while.

I am going to get one of those test kits for Ethanol and see what my local station has as a fuel type.

OP, hope you have your questions answered.

Good luck..

[efizjb]

Glad I posted, I thought I may get a "hey there's threads on this subject", this generated a good discussion, I've got to reread and digest it, but this does simplify the subject.

Shawn, to answer your "edit" question, I think our state was already on E10 here at time of that dyno run. So to sum that up, my LC-1 and ECM stoich was left to factory settings, for gasoline(E10 not a thought in anyones mind). The LC-1 read 12.8 to 13.0 throughout pull. MY PE table was set to a flat line of 12.9 so I was suprised at how close I was from only messing with VE on the street prior. Based on this, is why I thought I should either set stoich at 14.13 or bump PE down to say 12.3 no thinking about ethanol...as LC-1 reads lambda anyway is why I didn't know if I should change it. You're saying fueling will be off about 4%, and others are saying trims will take care of it, but wouldn't that NOT be true for PE, but under normal CL VE operation not default PE settings?

Sorry if I'm confusing this more guys! I figure by answering Shawn more might be revealed for those of us still learing.

[WeathermanShawn]

I was wrong about PE. It will be affected.

Your situation is not that different from mine. Here is how I understand it.

1. If you know your Fuel Type (E10) set B3601 accordingly (14.124 AFR).
2. Best to just leave PE Modifier in either EQ or Lambda. Set PE to .85 Lamda or EQ 1.18 or whatever you determine is good E10 fueling.
3. Log and adjust Trims accordingly.
4. Use Calculated BEN to tune Commanded AFR vs Actual.

Thats my take...