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Thread: Problem with my Head/Cam 98 LS1 camaro - files attached

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeathermanShawn View Post
    See looking at that Spark Table, it was designed to never launch below 2200 RPM's.

    Your launch and addition of nitrous was at 1652 Rpms (TPS 88%). Your CALC.Cylinder air was 1.30, which put your car at 28 degrees Commanded Spark. Stock is 18 degrees.

    Now if you really ran that Spark table for 150 runs and never had trouble, perhaps you just got lucky. Thats a lot of cylinder pressure for that low of a RPM.

    Maybe thats a nitrous Spark table, or someone got sloppy cutting and pasting values into it.
    Sorry- meant I had sprayed 150 WET on the car prob 15 or so times with the same spark tables and race gas. No MSD boc=x to pull timing. My FJO controller was set to only engage at 100% TPS so something is up..

    Usually if I'm stalled up around 2200-2400 the convertor will flash to 3400 or so as soon as I go WOT.

    So was I just up on the convertor a little harder on the second launch or something and the FJO engaged at less than 100% on the third pass?

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeathermanShawn View Post
    Josh, I'm not sure. People do all sorts of things with Tunes with various rationals.

    I'm just saying this would be like playing with dynamite. You can do it 100 times and get away with it, then one mistake and jumping to 28 degrees of Spark at 1600 Rpms is not standard tuning.

    I just don't get why you would need to set-up a Spark table this way...

    I agree 100%. I am going to need to completely go back through the timing table since that seems to be the problem. I knew the timing advanced seemed really high in the logs. Also seemed real erratic.

    Also got to start assessing damage to the engine. That also may explain the KR in 3rd on motor in the first log

  3. #143
    R.I.P Shawn, 1956-2011 WeathermanShawn's Avatar
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    Yea and on this end I probably look at dozens of Tunes and logs every week with my main attention on the CALC.VET Tuning method. I remember you talking about a Nitrous tune, but somehow thought that was sometime in the future or with COS5.

    This is just a hobby on my end. As a courtesy I try to always compare Tunes against stock and normally I would have caught that High-Octane Spark Table. Probably your Tune Title (which says stock) threw me off. I concentrated on your MAF, VE, and Trims.

    Well you seem mechanically inclined, so I am sure you can figure out the damage.

    So my analysis is that you had Spark-related detonation (too much Spark for cylinder load). More octane and less spark would be the solution.

    Perhaps in the future you can write a Tutorial on Nitrous-Tuning...
    2002 Black Camaro Z-28 M6 Hardtop 11.0:1CR 425HP/410TQ SAE (400TQ@3500RPM)
    200cc Heads, 228/232 110+2 Cam, 1 3/4" LT's w/catts, GMMG, Koni Shocks, Hotchkis Springs, 35/21 Sways, 17" ZR1's, 3.90 Gears Roadrunner PCM LM-2 Serial Wideband
    EFILive Closed-Loop MAF/SD Hybrid Tune..


  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeathermanShawn View Post
    Yea and on this end I probably look at dozens of Tunes and logs every week with my main attention on the CALC.VET Tuning method. I remember you talking about a Nitrous tune, but somehow thought that was sometime in the future or with COS5.

    This is just a hobby on my end. As a courtesy I try to always compare Tunes against stock and normally I would have caught that High-Octane Spark Table. Probably your Tune Title (which says stock) threw me off. I concentrated on your MAF, VE, and Trims.

    Well you seem mechanically inclined, so I am sure you can figure out the damage.

    So my analysis is that you had Spark-related detonation (too much Spark for cylinder load). More octane and less spark would be the solution.

    Perhaps in the future you can write a Tutorial on Nitrous-Tuning...
    This was my first week of tuning with EFIlive and I have learned SOOO much from you guys. I'm still a newb. But I did own a motor dyno shop for 2 years and have a good idea about correcting A/F to make power. Thats why I made the change from tune 007 to tune 008 at the track.

    I did glance over the VE table and was 28 degrees timing, but I figured pulling 4* would be 24 and should be plenty safe on a 100 shot. If I'd pulled a plug I would have known the timing was way high. But I felt so comfortable with the AFR/Lambda that I didn't even think about it.

    If your 100% sure that I can see the MSD timing twister pull timing in efilive and its working, I will continue to use it since its on the car already. If I have any doubt about that MSD box I will take it off and just create a EFILive nitrous tune with a completely different timing table thats already retarded based on the size shot. (May have 3 or 4 diff tunes if using that method).

    I'd like to have a factory 1998 tune file so I can compare the spark tables. I know holden crazy has them, but the site didnt seem clear on which ones have been modified or not. ( <FIgured this out now so I'll get a stock 98 automatic tune and compare spark)

    Good news is. I think we have the fueling real close Wouldn't hurt to upgrade the injectors based on the duty cycle and upgrade the fuel system (Pump,hotwire,PSI Sensor to log)

    At least I left comfortable making fueling changes after spening the week on the CALC.VET tutorial
    Last edited by blackflag; May 8th, 2011 at 03:45 PM.

  5. #145
    R.I.P Shawn, 1956-2011 WeathermanShawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackflag View Post
    If your 100% sure that I can see the MSD timing twister pull timing in efilive and its working,
    I'd like to have a factory 1998 tune file so I can compare the spark tables.
    I am NOT 100% sure on the MSD Box. You would have had to log Spark IAT, Octane Scaler, ECT Spark, to be 100% sure. I see you never exceeded 24.5 degrees of Spark on your Nitrous runs, but it could have been those three modifiers contributing.

    Your Tune also has a lot of the Knock Sensors desensitized. Its obvious it is designed as a hardcore racing tune. Everything is set-up to not allow the PCM to pull timing at all.
    I used this site to compare your Tune: http://www.tunefiledepot.com/. I used PCM 19980100 to compare.

    I would definitely mitigate to the 12212156 OS and use COS5. You'll be so much happier. You can utilize the Pids to see how to modify your timing and fuel.

    Good luck.
    2002 Black Camaro Z-28 M6 Hardtop 11.0:1CR 425HP/410TQ SAE (400TQ@3500RPM)
    200cc Heads, 228/232 110+2 Cam, 1 3/4" LT's w/catts, GMMG, Koni Shocks, Hotchkis Springs, 35/21 Sways, 17" ZR1's, 3.90 Gears Roadrunner PCM LM-2 Serial Wideband
    EFILive Closed-Loop MAF/SD Hybrid Tune..


  6. #146
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    I only do naturally aspirated tuning (no bottles, no boost) as most of the conversions I do are warrantied. I agree with WeathermanShawn's suggestion to move to a COS5 tune - if I understand this correctly, a nitrous timing retard is "built in" to the COS5 - which should eliminate the need for the MSD box - reducing one of the variables in play.

    Also, you mentioned previously mixing racing fuel with the "pump gas" in your tank - and ran with no issues (damage). Depending on the octane rating of this fuel, it would have made a significant difference in the "safe" range for spark timing while using nitrous. If I understand correctly, the damage run was on pump gas only. If you plan on running this type of fuel, I would recommend returning the knock sensors to near stock configuration - as a measure of safety.

    As you don't have a switch to select "Normal" or "Performance" transmission shift modes, I have attached two examples of possible transmission tunes below. All 1>2 parameters are unaltered - as you indicated no issues with the 1>2 shifts. The Desired Shift Times (D1109, D1110) and Base Pressures (D0702, D0703) have been altered for the 2>3 and 3>4 shifts.

    Example 1 - should produce firm shifts. Example 2 - should produce very firm shifts. Again, these are intended as examples only - I'm guessing that the boost valve and servos are similar - but modifications to your trans separator plate may be different than those I use - which may yield differences in flow (volume) and pressure.


    Regards,
    Taz

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taz View Post
    I only do naturally aspirated tuning (no bottles, no boost) as most of the conversions I do are warrantied. I agree with WeathermanShawn's suggestion to move to a COS5 tune - if I understand this correctly, a nitrous timing retard is "built in" to the COS5 - which should eliminate the need for the MSD box - reducing one of the variables in play.

    Also, you mentioned previously mixing racing fuel with the "pump gas" in your tank - and ran with no issues (damage). Depending on the octane rating of this fuel, it would have made a significant difference in the "safe" range for spark timing while using nitrous. If I understand correctly, the damage run was on pump gas only. If you plan on running this type of fuel, I would recommend returning the knock sensors to near stock configuration - as a measure of safety.

    As you don't have a switch to select "Normal" or "Performance" transmission shift modes, I have attached two examples of possible transmission tunes below. All 1>2 parameters are unaltered - as you indicated no issues with the 1>2 shifts. The Desired Shift Times (D1109, D1110) and Base Pressures (D0702, D0703) have been altered for the 2>3 and 3>4 shifts.

    Example 1 - should produce firm shifts. Example 2 - should produce very firm shifts. Again, these are intended as examples only - I'm guessing that the boost valve and servos are similar - but modifications to your trans separator plate may be different than those I use - which may yield differences in flow (volume) and pressure.


    Regards,
    Taz
    Thanks a lot Taz! I just got home from work, so I'll have a look at these trans tunes tonight. I'm especially intersted in firming up the 2/3 shift. I do drove the car several days a week, but also try to goto the track 2-3 times a week as well. I'll get the nitrous tune figured out, it will just take me some more time.

    When I stopped mixing in the 110 or 112 race gas is when I started having nitrous problems. Thats when I put on the MSD box, pulled 2* per 50 shot and ran it on 93.
    Thought that would be safe enough for a 100 or 150 shot, but obviously I had too much timing in the tune. I'd guess the guy that tuned before tried to put a lot of timing in since the previous owner never had nitrous on it.

    Even though it sucks having some damage to the engine, I have learned a lot from this experience and will continue to learn and use nitrous. I *may* end up doing the 2002 PCM swap, but I will talk to MSD to ask them how the timing twister modifies timing and if I should see it in my PID data.

    Other option may be to create a nitrous tune with specific timing tables and just upload that when I'm at the track and going to spray it. I'll probably also end up putting a stand-along fuel cell for the nitrous so its always on race gas. It gets expensive putting 5 gal of race gas in at the track to a 1/4 tank of 93 (My usual mix).

    I'm still not ruling out that the MSD box didn't pull any timing like it should have. I have heard other people having problems with them too. Plus if I can't see the logged timing then that just makes it harder to tune.

    But I will eventually get it figured out!

  8. #148
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    One thing to note.. the MSD Box is setup as a step retard. It only pulls timing (was set to pull -4*) when the nitrous is activated. THe nitrous is controlled by an FJO nitrous controller that only activates the solenoids/nitrous at 100% TPS.

    So say I have the nitrous button activated, it wont turn on the kit or retard timing at anything less than 100% TPS. Also has to be within 3000-5750 RPM.

    Knowing this, I can compare the first motor run and look at the timing etc and that may help determine if I can see the MSD pulling timing or not.

    Another thing I thought about, was the innovate sensor would have went into that (error 8- sensor timing) because it looks way to flat in the last log especially.

    I think it logged correctly on the first motor pass.

  9. #149
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    In the log SPARKADV is the timing as computed by the PCM... the PCM has no knowledge of the external timing retard box.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by joecar View Post
    In the log SPARKADV is the timing as computed by the PCM... the PCM has no knowledge of the external timing retard box.
    Thats what I was dreading. The MSD box is inline the crank and cam sensor so it must modify the timing inbetween the PCM and the plug. I definately going to take that box off.

    I'm making excel calculations right now of B5913 High Octane Spark. Basically taking the stock value with labels, taking my 008 B5913 with labels and putting them into a spread sheet. Then I took the stock and subtracted my values. I'm checking now to see if the math is correct. Seemed like EFILive Tune would show 28 and excel would be something like 27.992635. (Copy with Labels option to select data)

    The MSD box pulls the same amount to timing across the entire curve over 1800 RPM. I had it set to 4*. If I wanted to pretend it worked, I guess I could also calculate another spreadsheet of my current B5913 table and subtract -4 in every cell over 1800.

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