Wideband questions

[Sleeping]

Need to get wideband for my car and was wondering if having one for each bank will be necessary. If so is there any way to use 2 sensors as the narrow bands also. I no longer have my rear o2s. I have went over the wideband poll still can not make mind up on what going to buy. I had a AEM Ugeo in my last car and hated it never worked right. I was leaning towards the Innovate MTX-L. Where is best placement for a single wideband. Any other inputs or kits I should be looking into? Which kit is best for dual wideband setup. I also would like some sort of a gauge.

[Mr. P.]

My 2-cents - the dual WB02s are overkill, the reason I offer this is because even if you do monitor both banks of the engine, you still cannot make VE adjusments per cylinder! The usual practice is to install a single sensor in the driver's-side exhaust because on LS-motors they have a history of #5 & #7 running a tad leaner than the passenger side on some vehicles. A dual-sensor setup would be killer, but you can still get great results with a quality single WB02.

Placement = ideally yeah you want the WB02 where the factory places the primary NBs, but I have put mine in the rear O2 sensor bung (I don't run cats) and still get great results. Yes some kits will simulate narrowband O2s, i.e. you replace the stock NB sensors with the widebands but then you have to cut/splice wires into your factory harness between the WB product and the car; not many have chosen to do this, and a couple have reported less than stellar results doing it, I would run the original NB sensors in the car.

In my own truck I chose the NGK AFX wideband because it uses the NTK sensor (rather than the Bosch sensor) and the results are much better than my last wideband (PLX) the vehicle has responded much better to VE/fueling adjustments calculated off this wideband than the PLX, so I've had really good experience with that product and I think it's because it uses the better NTK sensor.

Innovate makes a well thought out and well regarded product, and they have lots of good videos about widebands and their installation & usage on their website. They do make a genuine effort on their product support, and that means a lot.

Mr. P.

[SSpdDmon]

How'd the install go with the AFX? What kind of power source does it tie into (direct wire, cig lighter, etc.)?? How about connecting it to Flashscan - is there enough length on the harness/wires??? Any grounding error noticed???

My 2-cents - the dual WB02s are overkill, the reason I offer this is because even if you do monitor both banks of the engine, you still cannot make VE adjusments per cylinder! The usual practice is to install a single sensor in the driver's-side exhaust because on LS-motors they have a history of #5 & #7 running a tad leaner than the passenger side on some vehicles. A dual-sensor setup would be killer, but you can still get great results with a quality single WB02.

Placement = ideally yeah you want the WB02 where the factory places the primary NBs, but I have put mine in the rear O2 sensor bung (I don't run cats) and still get great results. Yes some kits will simulate narrowband O2s, i.e. you replace the stock NB sensors with the widebands but then you have to cut/splice wires into your factory harness between the WB product and the car; not many have chosen to do this, and a couple have reported less than stellar results doing it, I would run the original NB sensors in the car.

In my own truck I chose the NGK AFX wideband because it uses the NTK sensor (rather than the Bosch sensor) and the results are much better than my last wideband (PLX) the vehicle has responded much better to VE/fueling adjustments calculated off this wideband than the PLX, so I've had really good experience with that product and I think it's because it uses the better NTK sensor.

Innovate makes a well thought out and well regarded product, and they have lots of good videos about widebands and their installation & usage on their website. They do make a genuine effort on their product support, and that means a lot.

Mr. P.

[joecar]

The Innovate widebands have an analog output for providing an NBO2 signal.

You can run one or two widebands, as your budget or curiosity permits.

If you run two Innovate widebands, their serial ports daisy chain so that your FlashScan V2 can read both widebands (via a single null modem serial comms cable).

What year/model/vehicle/mods do you have...?

[Mr. P.]

How'd the install go with the AFX? What kind of power source does it tie into (direct wire, cig lighter, etc.)?? How about connecting it to Flashscan - is there enough length on the harness/wires??? Any grounding error noticed???

OK my review -

Overall I give the NGK AFX a thumbs-up, it's built from great materials and well constructed; the wire that they use is fantastic, not cheap import crap and that kind of detail impressed me - when I soldered the wires during install, none of the insulation melted or deformed or dripped-off (good stuff!) it's the best quality wire I've soldered in a long time, and the copper conductor inside the wire is beefy, not some wimpy 20-gauge junk like that used in my last wideband. The instructions are terrific (you can download them before you buy) and robust, they have a few extra pages about tuning in addition to just wire-up diagrams. Also in the box is included an O2 sensor bung and plug, so you don't have to source/buy those extra from an internet speed/parts shop. The biggest selling-point to me is that it uses the NTK sensor, which is the same exact lab-grade part used on the professional widebands the OEMs are required to use when filling out their government EPA paperwork; this sensor and wideband is specifically designed to be most accurate in the low 11:1 AFR range so it's far more accurate than the Bosch when you have to rely on those readings with forced induction applications. Even better is that there is a dial on the back of the 'brain' that you use to calibrate your wideband in free air, so you know it's right when you log with it. I have heard second-hand from Greg Banish that the same company that designs the widebands costing many thousands of dollars for OEM/government use also designed or consulted on the design of this product, but again that is just a rumor from a qualified source.

There is one big electrical plug at the back of the 'brain box' that 'forks' into two 10-foot harnesses, one leg going to the NTK sending unit and the other for power & ground; both legs of the harness are covered in expanding nylon flex braid shield (sexy!). The unit also has [only] analog outputs, but those wires are only 12-inches long (crappy, but I made it work for me). All wires are very well labeled.

The gauge/display is a good/bad thing in that it is not a standard size, so you cannot mount it in a gauge pod. But the numerals are HUGE (3/4" LED) and you can read the AFR display from 2-cars away; another bad thing is that the display is calibrated at 14.57:1 so the numbers it is displaying are useless to me because I run E10. It is obvious that this wideband is designed for temporary use - they expect you to velcro it to the dash (velcro included!) and after your round of tuning you remove it and the NTK sensor from the car; they even recommend that after tuning you do this because the NTK sensor is guaranteed accurate for approximately 20K-miles use (which is why they included the O2 sensor plug?).

The only install problem I had is that because the connector to the NTK sensor is *huge* (larger than that for the Bosch) and the connector to the gauge/display is even bigger, if you want the display inside the cab then you need a 1-1/2" hole in the firewall to pass the connector through (!) -or- what I actually did was cut the last 3-feet off the sensor harness, run those wires through a 'normal' sized hole in the firewall to the exhaust, and under the vehicle I soldered the tail back onto the cut harness. PITA, but it was either that or jackhammer a huge hole in my truck.

In the cab I chose to put the display inside the glovebox; the reason why is, I never look at the display (it displays wrong numbers for E10 I have to run) but I did want to be able to easily get at it for free-air calibration. Once I had my WB02 wires run, I also ran wires from the fuel pressure, trans pressure, and oil pressure sending units into the glovebox, and put all these wires along with the two 12" analog wires from the wideband (8 wires total) into a female Ethernet jack connector. I then made a cable with Cat5 network cable, stripping one end and attaching four orange external voltage adapters for the V2 - so when I want to log with the V2 I now just take my special cable and plug it into the network jack in my glovebox and ta-da all my external inputs are live. So I made those short 12" analog output wires work for me, but I can see where most people would have to extend these.

Anyways, I love the NGK product - I just wish they had added a switch on the back you could flip so the display would toggle between AFR/EQR/Lambda, and I wish the analog output wires were longer, and I wish you could run the harness to the O2 sensor through the firewall without either a freaking huge hole or cutting/soldering the harness. Those issues aside, I love the results - the best MPG I could ever get with my prior PLX/Bosch was mid-12s, after using the NGK I got mid-15s immediately so it's a hell of a lot more accurate, and produces much better (stable?) logging data at WOT too when the EQRs are really rich. And the kit is only $269 retail, including the O2 bung & plug so it's well priced, I agree with others who have said this is probably the best 'reasonable' bare-bones wideband available right now; it doesn't have features like emulating narrowbands, or serial output, or its own internet cloud-aware app, but what it does I am convinced it does superbly.

OH last question you asked, about ground voltage differential - I did not measure/check for that, I ran out of time. Next time that I am in my glovebox, I will do that!

Mr. P.

[Taz]

Excellent post Mr.P.,

I've used my NGK AFX for years ... first with carbs, now with EFI. It has never let me down. One minor correction to your post - the NGK AFX control box (display) is calibrated to stoichiometry of gasoline (no ethanol content) at 14.57:1 AFR. This is of no consequence if you use the voltage output and Lambda formula provided in the manual - to write a CALC PID. An EQ CALC PID is also easily written (my preference).


Regards,
Taz

[Mr. P.]

Thanks - corrected. And for completeness, the custom PIDs I used for the NGK AFX are:

CALC.LAMBDA_NGK = "({EXT.AD1} * 0.096) + 0.62"
CALC.EQR_NGK = "1 / (({EXT.AD1} * 0.096) + 0.62)"
CALC.BEN_NGK = "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * (({EXT.AD1} * 0.096) + 0.62)"

I'll have to make a post someday with pics of my glovebox wiring!

Mr. P.

[joecar]

Yes, very good review of the NGK AFX.

For more clarity/simplicity, you can write:
CALC.EQR_NGK = "1/{CALC.LAMBDA_NGK}"
CALC.BEN_NGK = "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{CALC.LAMBDA_NGK}"

so that the EQR and BEN pids reference the LAMBDA pid (i.e. keep the wideband details localized in one pid)

[ but note that in the calc_pids.txt file the PRN Fxxx entries are processed in numeric order ]

+1 post pics when you have a spare moment...

[joecar]

...

[ but note that in the calc_pids.txt file the PRN Fxxx entries are processed in numeric order ]

...

This means have the Fxxx tags arranged numerically in the order LAMBDA, EQR, BEN.

If you arrange all pids such that Fxxx numeric order goes monotonically (i.e. never jumps backward), you should be fine.

Post your calc_pids.txt file as an example.

[nicen_tech]

I see this is an old thread but these are the WB sensors I am using, what information do I put in and where? I really dont understand where this goes. I am in the s&t BBX , f2(scan) and was setting up my pid list. I see what I think is the analog volatge input (AD1,AD2,AD3,AD4), but how do I tell it the correction factor? How does it know that its a wideband and not some other input? I prefer to use AFR as the reading so I can compare it to the display to make sure they are reading right