Yes, just hardware/software that you can't see, this makes it magic... and it being convoluted makes it black magic.
Yes, just hardware/software that you can't see, this makes it magic... and it being convoluted makes it black magic.
I'm with Joecar.
If it is just hardware and software then yourself and samgm2 should be able to figure it out with asking the rest of us for help - unless you don't understand the "hardware and software".Originally Posted by MisterBill
The intent of the "wizardry" comment (which the rest of us understood) was to pay a little respect to the folks at EFILive that have the ability to combine computer science with art (or generating solutions by thinking outside of the box).
You and samgm2 have "big plans" for your ethanol project - but as of yet, you can't even get the vehicle to start.
When you have your "hat in hand" and are asking others for help, arrogance is never a good approach.
Regards,
Taz
And just what determines if a ECM, cluster...etc etc is "right"? This is where research seems to return conflicting information...nobody seems to know.
Why we want to do it is irrelevant.
The "full flash" button is not enabled, but I don't know if Sam as tried Version 8 yet as Erik mentioned earlier. Why would the "full flash" button be disabled in 7.5?
Aside from the starter relay check are there any other steps required to enable the engine to start?
So you're saying disabling the starter relay check does not always work.
The resistor may need to be to 12V depending on the year...some pull it down, some pull it up.
The one in the instrument cluster of course
Oh there is definitely a sufficient level of not understanding a lot of this! No question about that. My comment was in no way shape or form intended to convey arrogance, if anything I am an overly modest person. If that is how it came off then I do apologize. I just hate when engineering is referred to as magic...it is not.
For all the modules to be right, the need to have the same VIN. They need to be VATS learned. This enables all modules to determine that they have agreed on the same security code. They go through a nominal process of exchanging secret key etc so that they cant be hacked. If you have a 2010 ECM, and you have not run VATS learn, then that explains a no start and maybe the security light. The 2010 ECM may not even be compatible with the earlier VATS sequence. GM makes changes often every year. All this is pretty well documented by GM in their publications.
Full flash button normally arcs up when tune tool is started with the V2 plugged in with the tune tool authenitcated to the V2. Pretty straightforward.
Sometimes the starter check is used by the calibration, sometimes not. The Efilive option always seems to work. The check type if used is defined by whether the relay connects to ground or to 12V. If its to ground then the ECM pin may want to see current to ground.
Thats the 2nd funniest quip I read tonight
The reference to magic is a euphemism for the convoluted or unknown portion of a system and that the system functions in spite of being convoluted/unknown... it no way implies magic in the traditional meaning of the word.
When an engineer refers to magic he/she means any of the following:
- conditions are just right and everything connects/clicks/functions and generally comes/falls together very nicely (when you design a board to carry high speed signals you will know magic and antennas)(skiiers also use upon being able to perfectly carve snow),
- a subsystem which is so simple and functions so well/flawlessly is magic (e.g. 555 timer chip),
- a subsystem whose detail is hidden/obscured/protected from view so it is magic,
- a subsystem whose detail is so convoluted/difficult to understand so it is magic that it works without bugs.
There is a famous quote: "Engineering is a mixture of art, science and [black] magic"... I think Robert Pease quoted/requoted this.
Last edited by joecar; July 25th, 2011 at 09:05 AM.
I design high speed printed circuit boards and microwave antennas for a living...do not tell me it is magic, it is NO such thing. Granted RF is a different animal that doesn't tend to play by the normal rules...but there is no magic involved. Building anything that "magically" works is NOT engineering.
My simple joke of a comment was in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM intended to undermine the efforts of the EFILive engineering team. If it was taken that way, well it was not in the slightest intended that way. I KNOW the effort it takes to develop anything intended for a system developed by someone else, been there done that. Granted that was with older TBI systems...but believe you me I completely appreciate the amount of effort!
With that said yeah I can see where the term may be used in a completely different context...guess I just don't agree with the humor in it.
Anyway I'm done with the useless silly stuff. Moving on...
All I care about is why this <explicative> engine won't start with the 2010 ECM/TCM combo. Sam said he was able to do a VATS-disabled full flash with the V8 software but that made no difference (and regardless of how straightfoward anything should be...the full-flash button IS NOT enabled in 7.5, for whatever reason I don't know). Speaking of the VATS disable...there are something like three options (forgive me I don't have the software in front of me at the moment) and we are not finding anything that explains very well just which one of these options we are supposed to be using. I think it was different "Types" maybe? (Type 1 VATS, Type 2 VATS..etc) How do we know which one is appropriate?
It could also very well be that VATS has been disabled all along and there is still a problem with the starter relay diagnostics (or whatever that is called). In studying the wiring diagrams I discovered that the starter relay signal is not only on different ECM pins between 2007 and 2010, but is of different polarity (2007 ECM pulls the relay coil down, 2010 ECM pulls it high). In addition to that, in 2007 the P/N safety switch is in series with the starter relay, where as the 2010 P/N switch is not. I have rewired the P/N switch signal to the correct pin on the 2010 (and inverted with a relay to match what the 2010 ECM is expecting for the P/N signal), but I think wiring the starter relay to the 2010 diagrams was a mistake, since the BCM is going to send a "start command" to a 2007 ECM, not a 2010 ECM.
Seems the next step is to provide the ECM with an appropriate starter relay signal. As long as VATS is disabled there really shouldn't be anything else preventing this thing from starting, right?
I think my point was completely lost... but anyway, carry on with starter relay diagnostics.
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