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Thread: Timing Bias?

  1. #21
    Lifetime Member AdamRRT's Avatar
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    Seriously, are you just trying to argue or do you have anything to offer? Yes it varies but not by 20*. You should easily be able to hear timing rattle and know when it shouldn't be happening based upon diesel engine theory. 20* is a huge difference.

    And according to the thread, apparently we don't KNOW that the bias is there. It's thought to exist. That's what's been said repeatedly.
    EFI Live, Maxxed Out auto trans, Edge TC, FASS, 35's, 4" lift, E.D. 62/68/12, 70 hp tips.

  2. #22
    Lifetime Member AdamRRT's Avatar
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    So you think I'm going to do it to the point of damaging the engine? Why would anybody do that? You can get timing rattle without destroying an engine. If you don't know that, get away from EFILive. You just don't leave it as the norm.
    EFI Live, Maxxed Out auto trans, Edge TC, FASS, 35's, 4" lift, E.D. 62/68/12, 70 hp tips.

  3. #23
    Lifetime Member DoghouseDiesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamRRT View Post
    Sure it will. We can easily tell if theres 20* from intended by going for timing rattle or by even seeing if we lose power where we should or if it takes another 20* to do it.
    Won't tell you squat on the dyno.

    I guarantee I could set this at and indicated 50*, 30* or 17* and you wouldn't know the difference in the sound on the dyno until it was advanced enough to go BANG!

    Let's cut through the BS.

    Until someone is willing to pull out an o-scope and hook it to the injectors and get a reading, we won't know where it actually takes place.

    What we do know right now is that in the tables, if you command, for example 30*, what you'll really get is 10*.

    This value is being introduced by the ECM, but it's not confirmed yet. Until it's confirm, they don't want to make any changes to the software that could be potentially disasterous.

    Sometimes, the best thing people can do is step back and listen and not act like they have all the answers......just sayin.

    1207 HP / 1612 TQ

  4. #24
    Lifetime Member AdamRRT's Avatar
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    I in no way think I know everything. But I know that adding timing causes the sound to change. That there should be a huge difference in sound and smoke comparing 5* to 25*. Is that debatable?

    Ok and it's said even by Ross that he's not sure that the bias is there. So we can walk the timing up and see if the bias is there. Not why. Why doesn't matter, as long as we know there IS some bias. That's all I'm saying.

    I can't be acting like I know it all in the thread I'm clearly admitting to needing help. That doesnt even make sense. Come on be realistic. That's all I'm saying. No need to jump onto me. If I'm misunderstanding, clarify.

    If you KNOW it's there when Ross says THINK it's there, SPEAK UP and correct him. We are adults here. Let's help each other. Share your reasoning cause I'm left thinking that it's somehow unable to be heard which is just strange since I can load CL right now and hear tons of timing rattle.
    EFI Live, Maxxed Out auto trans, Edge TC, FASS, 35's, 4" lift, E.D. 62/68/12, 70 hp tips.

  5. #25
    Lifetime Member AdamRRT's Avatar
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    Sorry if I came across the wrong way. Not sure how I could when I clearly asked for help. And when guys are admitting to hearing timing rattle when they increase pressure, but others can't hear it?

    Let's figure this out is what I'm saying. Work together.
    EFI Live, Maxxed Out auto trans, Edge TC, FASS, 35's, 4" lift, E.D. 62/68/12, 70 hp tips.

  6. #26
    Lifetime Member FUBAR's Avatar
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    I can't believe Lee hasn't jumped on this...anyhow. I think we can all agree that the issue at hand needs fixed. I'm starting to think the bias is only elected under certain conditions. What conditions? I don't know. Maybe when certain injection events are or not occurring. But from some evidence from what I'm seeing, it may not be all the time.

    There are many well respected engine, tuning people and all-around motorheads on here that it's hard to believe somebody can't or doesn't know somebody that is capable of scoping an injector.
    06 5.9L, EFILive / Silver Bullet Tuning
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoghouseDiesel View Post
    What we do know right now is that in the tables, if you command, for example 30*, what you'll really get is 10*.
    Is this happening at all rpms and fuel flow?

  8. #28
    Lifetime Member DoghouseDiesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamRRT View Post
    I in no way think I know everything. But I know that adding timing causes the sound to change. That there should be a huge difference in sound and smoke comparing 5* to 25*. Is that debatable?

    Ok and it's said even by Ross that he's not sure that the bias is there. So we can walk the timing up and see if the bias is there. Not why. Why doesn't matter, as long as we know there IS some bias. That's all I'm saying.

    I can't be acting like I know it all in the thread I'm clearly admitting to needing help. That doesnt even make sense. Come on be realistic. That's all I'm saying. No need to jump onto me. If I'm misunderstanding, clarify.

    If you KNOW it's there when Ross says THINK it's there, SPEAK UP and correct him. We are adults here. Let's help each other. Share your reasoning cause I'm left thinking that it's somehow unable to be heard which is just strange since I can load CL right now and hear tons of timing rattle.
    Alright, I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you about this.

    This is as realistic as you're gonna get it.

    I GUARANTEE, I can put my truck on the rollers RIGHT NOW and set the timing to whatever I want and YOU will not know the difference except in power produced.

    Rattle can come from several different causes, not just timing. Rail pressure has a lot more to do with injector rattle than timing does.

    What you want is a guess. The EFILive team has made if very clear in earlier posts that guesses will not yield changes, data will.

    SO, if you want it change, here is what YOU need to do.

    Get an o-scope, hook it up to the #1 injector and lets see what the actual timing is vs what the ECM is reporting.

    Do we have a good idea it's there? YES!

    Do most of us tune around it? YES!

    Is the data there to DEFINITELY support it? No.

    Do we know that it is ALWAYS there or not? No.

    I don't have an o-scope. Do you?

    1207 HP / 1612 TQ

  9. #29
    Lifetime Member AdamRRT's Avatar
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    Yup. Very little I disagree with there. Close enough. But let's be adult men and know that it's a DISCUSSION on a discussion board. Not an argument.

    Out of curiosity: Where did ANYBODY ask for changes in this thread as it relates to this timing bias? I'm not sure why that keeps getting mentioned.

    It's easy. Just say it's on these tables. Tune around it. If you're so sure it's there. It would have saved lots of discussion.

    So thanks for getting close to it man. It makes things much easier. Sorry for the confusion.
    EFI Live, Maxxed Out auto trans, Edge TC, FASS, 35's, 4" lift, E.D. 62/68/12, 70 hp tips.

  10. #30
    Lifetime Member THEFERMANATOR's Avatar
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    To find the bias you will need somebody with a scope to go in and scope teh crank sensor VS the injectors at the same time, and then cross reference this to the timing table. Another option may be to put a TDC mark o nthe balancer and go old school with a timing light of sorts that fires off the injector pulse. Jusat listening for rattle will do absolutely nothing as no 2 trucks will rattle at the same point. Hence why one treuck can run 30 degrees of advance and be fine meanwhile an identical truck can run the same tune and lose the rods and pistons with it. The only way to absolutely know ill be to get it on a scope and graph the bias while datalogging with the V2 to a PC or something to overlay teh graphs. And judging from that timing table of teh CUMMINS, I highly doubt there is a 20 degree bias throughout the entire range as 7-9 degrees ATDC would run pretty high EGT's in those power areas I would think.
    1995 GMC 2500 SUBURBAN powered by 01 DURAMAX/ALLISON, little of this, a little of that,
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