Setting certain things to zero yeilds nothing???

[icem237]

[AdamRRT]

As I said in another post (that got no attention), I think there's a LOT of tables and limiters that we're not privy to. The question becomes when EFI staff (I'm new and don't know who all that includes, and it's not a cut on anyone) is going to get on that. They may be, but it seems to get very little attention. Yes, one can blind tune on the dyno (well not blind but start with general numbers then add timing, add duration, see what brings the best power), but that's not much of an option for many of us who don't work with or own a dyno of our own. We'd like to start with the right theory (if tables and numbers were available and correct) and then do it in an affordable dyno session. But at this point it doesn't look like it's possible when people are getting results like yours today. Frustrating and under-developed is an understatement at this point.

Don't get me wrong. I know about custom tuning and I think the current state of EFI Live for the Cummins 5.9 is a great start so far. But that's about it really. The whole 20* thing not always panning out, the thing with people telling it to limit duration to BTDC and still running just fine at all RPM, the commanding more duration than the limiters allow but still getting improved results (that equal out to 25* BTDC and 45* ATDC yet making more power), all just seems like there's a lot missing as of right now. I expected such, but I don't know that I expected it to the degree that I'm hearing from a few members.

I'm REALLY excited to see how EFI Live develops. I WANT it to work like it should. I just think we're in a very primitive state right now that I'm dying to get answers to. Anybody else notice this?

[GMPX]

I think there's a LOT of tables and limiters that we're not privy to.

I wouldn't disagree, it's the same on any tuning software that is not supplied by the manufacturer, we aren't subsidiary of Cummins! We don't and will probably never know all the answers when it comes to the Cummins or any other ECM. You should be well aware of this fact coming from a background of tuning LS1's.

The question becomes when EFI staff (I'm new and don't know who all that includes, and it's not a cut on anyone) is going to get on that.

One person, me, I am the only one working on Cummins, that includes working on the 6.7L seeing the light of day, managing the beta team.......oh yeah and every GM computer we support too.

Frustrating and under-developed is an understatement at this point.

Ok, well, now imagine going back to where Cummins owners were 6 months ago. If the current release is so disappointing for you may I suggest Ebay and sell what you have.

The whole 20* thing not always panning out

We are pretty sure we have the answer to that, but everyone will need to understand that if we release new .calz files and scantool data with that offset taken in to account this is going to mean you will have to scrap any scripts you may have already created. It's a big change that needs to be really thought about thoroughly.

I just think we're in a very primitive state right now that I'm dying to get answers to. Anybody else notice this?

Primitive, wow, I don't know what to say. Perhaps take some time to look around at what tuning software on other makes is like. I know European tuners that have to tune cars by manipulating hex numbers!
I am personally offended by your statements because what I see is 6 to 8 months of my work being talked down like it's some backyard hack effort, we aren't Cummins Adam, I don't know anyone at Cummins to ask how this all works.
Oh, and last time I checked I don't have the gift to perform miracles either.

[AdamRRT]

I sincerely apologize. It in no way was an insult. Let me clarify: primitive compared to your amazing work on the GM. Yes, I'm aware that there are YEARS of development history between the two. And had that been part of what matters, I'd have said it. I would hope that I don't need to specify that. You are doing a great job, man. I'm just really excited about it and am pretty amazed that we are hearing nothing about these odd differences between commanded and actual. It's not an insult to you, so please don't take it that way Ross. Although I kind of figured instead of info on the issues, I'd get attacked instead. You didn't do that very badly, so that's cool. I didn't expect you would. You're pretty down to Earth so far, although I'd rather hear possible solutions instead of telling me tough crap you aren't concerned with happy customers and would rather I just sell the product rather than see it addressed. Man, I'm not against you. You are doing great. Ok? Let's not get sensitive. I didn't mean it that way. COMPARED TO YOUR GM WORK, it's primitive. Compared to what's needed to perform an comprehensive tune, it's a little behind. Do you disagree?

[AdamRRT]

And yes I'm aware of the way it works. "Crank units" (yes, HPT talk) wasn't even understood until my friend wrote the code to compare crank signals to cam signals. So yeah there's always a lot of hiccups. I just told a guy this tonight. That it's to be expected. I think I just was blown away when I was told about this thing were one set his entire duration to BTDC and didn't notice it running any differently. Sounds like a HUGE part of the puzzle is missing.

Ross, I know that tuning SRT4s is kind of odd because the MOPAR computer has what the SRT4 guys describe as a learning function. Of course we know that's done according to parameters, but still that's pretty much a stretch compared to having to tune every aspect as with an LSx car. Do you think part of the issues we're seeing is due to such behaviors in the MOPAR ECM that we (EFI Live) can't see at all, or if you can, can't do anything with?

I'm really excited to soak up the info and get a tune on this thing but it's pretty scary to hear this stuff. 24* BTDC with a total of 61* of timing needed (something like that) for the injector pulse commanded seems insane! And say the 20* is skewed to BTDC and it was 44* BTDC. Seems like a ton there too. I'd love for you to tell us what you think about it since you've got more understanding of it than any of it.

[GMPX]

All I can ask is for patience, I just had a quick look at a few of the GM platforms we support.
The Duramax Bosch ECM based tuning was released in Dec 2006, we were still adding new new tables in mid 2010 with probably double the amount of tables as the first release had.
The E38 GenIV V8 ECM, first release was June 2007, I actually just added in a few new things in July 2011.
Cummins has only been out since June 2011, so I am not surprised it's not got everything 100% sorted yet.
At the same time look at what has been achieved in those 3 months compared to what was out there in a box.

I have often wondered why no other company hasn't attempted a tuning package for the Cummins, I now know why. It is very, very odd in it's operation, not odd in a bad way, just complex. The difference of course between a handheld and EFILive is you are visually presented with maps and an explanation on how they all work by which you can judge the "completeness of the product". With no 'how to' book from Cummins by which to go by, unfortunately some of what you see is speculation and appears a little vague. The approach we have to take is no different to assembling a desk from Ikea or someone like that. Picture you get the desk home, put the instructions in the bin then try to assemble it. It's trial and error, you will make mistakes, slowly but surely the big picture will all fall in place and you'll complete it.

I am not complaining about you requesting that things be better, how else can we measure what we do. But for all those months I work solid on the Cummins the GM customers feel neglected and start complaining, it's not an easy balance let me tell you.

[AdamRRT]

I'm sure it's tough. I in no way envy you.

Let me ask you a blunt question:
What do you HONESTLY have to say to those of us wanting to use EFI Live to comprehensively (custom-worthy street daily driving manners as well as max effort results) tune our trucks, since it's in public release form?

I ask because I think many are way off base with their wishes, compared to their view of the reality of the current condition of the software. I think we're serving more as beta testers than as full release customers. And that's okay. Just seems that those who I've talked to who aren't as aware of the ongoing development process associated with custom tuning software are scratching their heads wondering what they've gotten themselves into since things aren't doing what they are described as. My answer is repeatedly "This is normal. We need EFI Live to open up more tables and limiters and PIDs before we'll understand what you're asking." I just think they would benefit from hearing it from you.

Thanks for being cool and relaxing as I understand and didn't mean it to be as you took it. It's my lot in life. Any time something can be taken two ways, it seems people always assume I'm trying to be a jerk instead of just having a discussion of principle instead of feelings. :(

[zfuller123]

Adam.... I'd like to pop in here - not to take sides, but to see if maybe i can help steer this to a productive thread to get questions answered (so Ross has something to work from when he can get to it, #1) and to see if perhaps there was something else amiss with the tuning.

I have been on the beta team for the cummins since January of this year - tuning multiple trucks from the day the software was first given to me. I can say that it has NOT always performed the way we thought it should. Many many questions. I have also done everything i could to help get Ross the data he needed to get EFILive past what any other 'package' currently can offer in terms of big RPMs, big fuel, etc - all WITHOUT any foolers, pressure boxes, etc...

That being said - the -20* offset question has been a debate for most of us on the beta team since around March (if memory serves). People like Nick (Cummins Tuner) have done testing to try and get Ross even more input on this issue in particular. There are lots of sides to consider, and at the point of release the decision was to leave it alone until we could prove, without a question - what the deal was and *IF* it always applied, or really only applied sometimes.

While I don't disagree with you that there are some other tables buried that we haven't had access too - I would say that creating a custom tune for about any truck and keeping it street driven ("streetable"), while making big power and all the other things you've mentioned is completely possible with the current state of the software. If there is a truck out there NOT responding to the -20* offset, that is something that would be GREAT to see in a log - and if the OP of this thread would like to share a log and his tune that he tested with, I'd be happy to look at it as would Ross and any number of other testers on here... There are multiple possibilities here.... but, since he is lucky enough to have the ability to CUSTOM tune this truck to operate knowing that the timing -20* offset is different on his truck. Not a big problem, but definitely a concernI would agree.

This is WHY EFILive, in my opinion, outdoes the rest. We have the ability to see data coming back from the ECM. Perhaps there's a buried table somewhere in there that has different timing for idle versus 'run' mode. You are again right in that things like this are sure to exist. My question is, on this point, does it really stop the truck from being able to be completely tuned and improved for the given set of mods? I don't believe I have any unhappy customers with their results on EFILive (short of 1 that is still happy with the tuning, but is fighting mechanical issues with CP3/Injectors)... There is DEFINITELY a curve here, in the Cummins world - but it's not impossible to overcome with the current state of the software.

I'm just saying that pretty much the only thing I disagree with in your statement is that a 'max effort' or 'drivable' truck isn't a reality with teh current state of the software. That is simply not true. I can say, on that same note, that some trucks DEFINITELY require more effort to get them dialed in - but it IS possible. Some things there could be better ways to accomplish this - many of which i'm sure will come in time.

Again, i'm not bashing at all.I'm trying to throw out a helping hand if I can to you or the OP. He has a valid concern if his tune is set as he described and there is no change in the timing. I would love to see the logs of this versus the tune he's testing with. It would be something that I think definitely merits some attention, although as I said - I don't see any reason taht would STOP this truck from being able to be tuned and sent on his merry way happy as a clam. Just takes time and some understanding of what's going on with THAT truck. Believe me, i've had plenty of trucks come along that required a little more than a "quick tune"... Just part of the gig!

Let me know if there is something I can do to help....

[GMPX]

What do you HONESTLY have to say to those of us wanting to use EFI Live to comprehensively (custom-worthy street daily driving manners as well as max effort results) tune our trucks, since it's in public release form?

Tuning feedback is mixed, some people are creating tunes far better than anything on the market, others are battling.
Customers aren't our beta testers. As far as I know not one Cummins ECM flash failure has occurred with EFILive, that doesn't just happen by sticking the software out there and hoping it goes well.
I was also just looking over the LS1 development files we have and I can see I was adding in idle control parameters two years after release, something considered critical on the LS1 engine, that doesn't mean LS1 was in Beta for two years prior to that and it doesn't mean nobody could tune an LS1 up to that point. I'm not sure how Cummins is going to end up being any different. If it is considered a product is in Beta because it doesn't have every table in existence in there, nor a 100% functionality grasp on the system then yes, it's beta.
Cummins owners have had to put up with the lesser of two evils when it came to the box tuners. You want to select the big power setting? Expect a very smoky ill mannered truck afterwards. Tone down the smoke and ill manners and it won't make the power. One of the main things expressed to us from Cummins tuners was if we were ever to have any hope of overcoming the domination of Smarty's market share we have to conquer the high RPM fuel limiting. That is certainly an area I have been focused on for many months, it was a tough job to finally conquer it. So to me, I look at that as we have accomplished something no other product could do up until this day. They have have years to refine tunes (some may argue they still haven't), so to expect EFILive to have the answer to everything since we released just 3 or so months ago is a bit of a high expectation isn't it?
To put it in perspective, IDAPro (which is software we use to generate disassemblys of the code) spits out about 100,000 lines of code to sift through, no simple and quick way to make sense of that I'm afraid. I'm not trying to make excuses, just put it in perspective.

It's a growing product, when we posted here on release:
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...d.php?t=113232

It states in that post the following key point.
"This release contains 140 tables / parameters for tuning and we expect this list to grow significantly as we work with customers who tune their vehicles for specific purposes that will require further parameters to optimize their setup and as we ourselves learn more about the operation of the ECM."
I think last count we are currently at around 170 tables and parameters in total, so it is evolving.
As stated there, we worked with customers to tune for a specific purpose, that primarily has been high RPM with full fuel.
I am confident our Duramax customers who are now doing Cummins are feeling very positive towards how things are going, they have seen Duramax evolve over the years in to what it is today and know Cummins will also get there too.

[FUBAR]

First I'll address the OP, yes, I too am getting the same result.

To address Adam: I see where he's coming from. I believe there are PID's that we're seeing out of the scantool that are not true. That goes back to my mm3 thread. How can I make more power between base files with the same numbers I'm seeing out of the scantool? Adam is just concerned with that the Cummins platform via EFILive gets it's attention and is developed best and truly it can. If Joe Blow buys EFILive, gets a professional tuner to throw a tune on their truck, they're happy because it's better than what they've had, then great! That's great I can say that about EFILive. But what I am not enthusiastic to say is the tuning missing or untrue numbers for people pushing the envelope and pioneering things like single event tunes and trying to match Smarty pound for pound down low to mid range. Happy Joe Blow or Joe Blow's professional tuner doesn't care because they're in a happy place, but is ignorant because they not know what else is below the surface. Adam really truly is just trying to better EFILive, it's just his way going about it that is different than someone else.

To address Zfuller: thanks for being neutral and trying to contribute to the thread. It's people like you that sits on both sides of the fence that I appreciate.

Ross: first and foremost, thank you for your efforts, time and achievements. I understand we do need to be patient. We Americans aren't too good at that I'll admit. But it's that intense drive and fire that makes wonders as well. I'll just want to say, I hope a lot of development doesn't cease because of the happy state most people are in right now. I believe we are seeing parameters in the Scantool that aren't completely true and/or PID's that we need to see, but just haven't yet. I hate to beat a dead horse, but again as an example looking back to my mm3 thread. I need to know everything I'm plugging into my tables are what the truck is going to be taking. If that's not the case in whole, fine. Let me try to help make that the case. Whether it be info saying, this doesn't work, or hey, I got this result but it makes no sense that I did, etc whatever. I too just want to better the platform.

-Andrew