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Thread: Improving shifts via the ECM

  1. #101
    Lifetime Member Tre-Cool's Avatar
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    Correct, however if your running mafless, I would add another 5%.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by mowton View Post
    So if I understand, you will increase the PCM Torque Model Airflow coeficient table (B3033) to "realign" the calculated torque model which has been reduced as a result of the Tune scaling process? This would then make it not necessary to scale the Torque related TCM Torque axis values (offset table typically as you do with the timing table)?

    Is it as simple as saying if my tune is scaled by 30% then I multiply the PCM Torque Model airflow coefficient values by 30%?

    Thanks for your input. Will experiment when I get a chance but any expereince from the forum would be appreciated.

    Ed M
    Ed,

    Assuming GM has proportionally aligned the reported torque from the engine controller to match the values on the TCM; any changes to the airflow that are scaled will effect the final torque value. If the MAF is cut by 50% then the reported torque is 50% less and tables in the TCM will off by 50%. EFIL needs a scaling hot key that can do this in one key stroke!! hmmm......V8 idea!

    This torque table is unfortunately difficult to reason through as its a coefficient table much like the airflow tables. What we need is this math reverse engineered to look like a VE surface which we could plot over airflow and really correct this table.......I have noticed that when you raise this table the reported actual torque value will go up.

    Howard

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  3. #103
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    I just started playing with the TM table(s) today on my 08 TBSS, Im running SD (failed the MAF) so I can tune the VVE. Lets just say even with the MAFless patches applied, the shifts were horrible. Completely different than they were before I installed my injectors (ID850s ) and scaled my tune 50%.

    I started with a 10% bump over stock and it made a difference, but still not what I was hoping. I then flashed the same tune with a 50% over stock, and HOLY CRAP it shifts just like normal again. So anyone wondering if you need to adjust these in a scaled tune, YOU DO! I bumped it 10% more over that and its pretty dang good for my taste.

    Howard, I like that idea. Have the ability to click a button and have all the VVE tables halved, Torque Model table doubled, etc.
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  4. #104
    Senior Member mowton's Avatar
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    Definitely sounds like we are on to something good Will make A4/A6 setups much easier to tune. The other tuning software lets you change the axis values which helps a bit. Thanks Howard (that table would be cool for sure) and Eric for your inputs. Last tune I tweaked the coefficient by 10% (also scaled the TCM Torque related pressure values) and it got better. Didn't want to go overboard until I had a chance to log and experiement.

    Thanks again guys,

    Ed M
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  5. #105
    Lifetime Member Boost's Avatar
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    Yes it works great.

    Some questions about this:

    Will it alter the ECM's torque PID? it has been hailed as so accurate and I myself found that it is within about 4 ft-lbs of factory rating. So after we make the tune shift better, is the accuracy of this PID invalid?

    Also, is it my imagination or does the car also "respond better" even when not shifting?

    I have increased all 4 degree positions on my VVT by 5%. The part throttle shifts are nice, almost a little harsh, the full throttle shifts have improved, though on the soft side. So should I increase just in the high RPM sections as stated before?

    Thanks!
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  6. #106
    Lifetime Member Rhino79's Avatar
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    You always want to leave pressures low enough for the tcm to firm up during learning, not soften. I run wot pressures on the base tables at 1200-1400 kpa. Max line pressure limits up to match that. Wot shift times of .2 to .27. The tighter the converter the looser you can run shift timing for a good feel.
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  7. #107
    Lifetime Member GMPX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boost View Post
    Will it alter the ECM's torque PID?
    Yes, in fact this PID is your feedback to track your changes.
    People have ridiculed this method (usually because they aren't using EFILive), the conversation usually goes something like this.
    Is the car MAF-Less ?
    Yes, and since doing that the trans shifts bad.
    Put the MAF back on, log the Torque PID, observe the max value (lets assume 450Nm).
    Now fail the MAF so it run SD and repeat the Torque PID test, observe max value, oh look, it only hit 390Nm that time.
    So now the TCM figures the engine is making less power than before.
    Mess with the coefficients to get the reported torque back up to where it was and what do you know, the trans is shifting ok in SD mode now.
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  8. #108
    Lifetime Member GMPX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports View Post
    If the MAF is cut by 50% then the reported torque is 50% less and tables in the TCM will off by 50%. EFIL needs a scaling hot key that can do this in one key stroke!! hmmm......V8 idea!
    Most people run in to this problem when going SD, it's too variable to 'auto scale' for some they need 10% more, others 40%. Just monitor the torque PID so see which way you are heading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports View Post
    This torque table is unfortunately difficult to reason through as its a coefficient table much like the airflow tables. What we need is this math reverse engineered to look like a VE surface which we could plot over airflow and really correct this table.......I have noticed that when you raise this table the reported actual torque value will go up.
    Again, this is the whole idea of messing with the tables, not so much to fool everything else in to thinking the engine is making 1000Nm of torque, rather to have some control to fix the torque calculation errors the ECM might be dong.
    To represent it as a VVE type table unfortunately isn't really possible, the VVE is plotted from numerous 2D tables all combined and manipulated at the same time. The tables the are with the Torque calculation are all 3D and are not calculated all in one shot. GM must have a killer bit of software to plot the numbers, it's over our head.
    Remember guys, the Torque PID is your friend, consider it the WBO2 of torque tuning.
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  9. #109
    Lifetime Member Tre-Cool's Avatar
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    i just swapped out some 63lb injectors for some id1000 sized ones which with an allready maxxed out ifr have to run an even more scaled tune. this has resulted in a loss of resolution but no biggie. i've also switched to e85 by the drum so thought i'd show the difference in the tunes to get the reported torque figures back to "normal".
    Click image for larger version. 

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    the grey screen is percentage difference between the old 63lb vs 100lbs.

  10. #110
    Lifetime Member Boost's Avatar
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    Thanks for the very good info and responses! So as I take it - yes - of couse by altering these tables the reported torque PID changes (higher) and it may no longer be so accurate and close to the factory rating (I am with you Ross about the WBO2 comparison, I've come to trust this PID more than some dynos).

    However, adjusting it makes a significant improvement to shift quality and almost feels like the final missing piece to the TCM dance.
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