Injector data...its ALL what its cracked up to be!

[ASNUPHIL]

Thanks for the compliment, well I will take it as one anyway. It is entreating and it's good seeing tuners proving that small changes can make a big difference.
As we increase the amount of fuel delivered in street performance vehicles, the more defined we have to be in the injectors performance, it's getting more interesting by the week now that we have GDI, which we have been doing since 1997.
I respect what you guys are doing and hope my comments are useful.

As for the sleep, when you have guys in Australia and Japan who are getting up as you are going to bed, well it's hard not to contact them when they have urgent questions, emails have become a time consuming pain, it's easier and quicker to pick up the phone, no matter what time it is. Thanks.

[mowton]

Howard and all,

This is all great reading and makes alot of sense to this engineer at heart. So where does that leave us tuners who don't have access to all the sophisticated test equipment or time to research all the options out there. Is there someone or group who has our back? I think my takeaway on this is if you pick from Bosch or IDC you should be OK. The major issue with re-drills is <2ms non-linearity causing major issues in idle and light cruise tuning along with varianility from injector to injector at >2ms even though they are "flow matched"

I assume they (Bosch and IDC) will continue to keep up with the technology and support "the little guy" with the best injector designs/styles for our projects.

Thanks Howard, Greg and Phil for your time and effort and having the desire to bring this to us.

Ed M

[eficalibrator]

Phil,

If I am understanding you correctly, you are asserting that as we go to very large injector flow rates (i.e.: 800+cc/min) we are more susceptible to lost fuel issues due to poor atomization? I know that our first priority needs to be the carbon balance for flame control, but if we are not evaporating and cleanly burning all the fuel mass that is being injected, that opens the door for further discussion of mixture preparation that has an impact upon combustion. Lost fuel can skew our downstream lambda measurements or at the very least force us to "bake in" some error to calculated airflows if one makes the ASSumption that 100% of injected fuel is burned. It seems that you might have some data showing that this might not be the case in some high flow rate injector applications (regardless of manufacturer) if the spray pattern and distribution are sub-optimal.

[ASNUPHIL]

Gentlemen,

Again, I would like to reiterate that this topic can be talking about two different programmes, those being Production Vehicles and Performance/Motorsport Vehicles..
Let clarify any arguments people may have about spray patterns, they are like everything else on a vehicle, they are built to specification, either to a Technical requirement or to a Financial budget. Take a guess as to which one has the best, top quality products on it and which has the cheapest bulk buying products possible on it?

Production Vehicle
Lets take the production vehicle, all built to a budget, with all the component being a target for cost saving buy the buyers. The injectors are a great example, the Bosch EV1 is now only special order and costs a fortune for quality versions from Bosch.
When a VM orders 35,000,000 for a production programme, saving $0.05 per injector means a saving of $17,500,000, so in an injector manufacturer has to make an injector $0.05 cheaper, then they have to start looking how to make it cheaper if they want the order.

The pintle valve of the EV1 was ground to a 1 micron tolerance, reducing the tolerance would change the characteristic of the spray, to which the VM would either have to accept and make adjustments in their design to accommodate the changes if they want the injector at the price or pay the price if they want the quaility. The words "Quality" and "Cheap Prices" have never been a statement from a manufacturer, you can have either, but not both.

As demands in emission regulations increased and pressure to reduce the price to the VM’s grew, injectors changed. In Bosch they went from the EV1.0 to the EV1.3, then to the EV6 and now to the EV14. This was the results of demands for progression in injector designs, productions and costs. As I am sure everyone is aware, the changes from EV1 to EV14 are huge, just take the cost saving in not using the metal body, add to that the savings in copper wire of a coil of the EV1 to EV6 to EV14, its a huge cost saving.


Bosch now have an injector rolling of the production line EVERY 3 SECONDS. The changes in designs mean that in theory that although they are making more injectors, their profit per injector has possibly reduced, which (this is only my own assumption) means the plant are possibly making the same money as 20 years ago, this is called progress.

Now we have gone from the EV6 to the EV14, cost saving are really being squeezed, the injectors are now the most important component in the controlling of exhaust emissions, so not only are they expected to be produced to a cost, they still have to perform to a standard for emission control.

Injectors are designed to ATOMISE IN FRONT OF THE VALVE, NOT ON IT.
Atomising in front of the valve gives the best chance of getting an even air/fuel ratio prior the mixture going in to the combustion chamber, ensuring the best possibility of even combustion, resulting in best possibility of even Idle, Economy and Emissions.
Using the inlet valve to atomise the fuel is a cheap option that limits the possibility of achieving the best results, yes it works, but is not an idle standard and one that covers up the inadequacies of the injector being used.

With multi production vehicles, injectors are in the most, designed to a cost and standard, which could be described as a “That will do” level, that increases as the standard of vehicle improves, I don’t think I need to explain the differences.
Now we have Multihole injectors, which are designed to produce Fuel Droplets to an average of 160 microns for production vehicles, if the manufacturer can laser cut 2 or 4 holes rather than 6 or 12, then they will make huge saving, we know the cost of laser cutting.

If an injector is produced to a standard such as SAE for a production vehicle, then IT WILL WORK, but if you ask if it could be improved, then the answer is YES, if you ask is it the best injector for the application, then the answer is possibly NO.

Now we have switch from Simultaneous to Sequential Injection, we will start to see the injector’s performance become even more critical, especially the quality of the spray pattern, sequential systems can compensate for fuel delivery discrepancies, but not the discrepancies in the spray patterns and that is an issue we are already seeing with GDI direct injection.

I have been testing injectors all over the world for over 25 years, no one in the world has seen as many different injectors for production vehicles and the problems due to manufacturing as I have and believe me, there are some really terrible production injectors in use. One well known VM’s and an Injector Manufacturer produced a range of injectors with a limited life expectancy, they were destined to fail and did, but some would last long enough to surpass the warranty period, then it becomes the owners problem, nice!! So lets not use a cheap OE injector, designed to do a job to a minimum as an example to which all injectors should be measured, that would be a serious mistake.


Performance/Motorsport Vehicles
OK, let’s now look at Performance/Motorsport vehicles.
What we all know is that this market not only uses the best, they demand the best as they all want to be the best, but that costs money.
If we take ANY Performance/Motorsport vehicle, if they want the best, they wont use a production version of anything on their vehicles!!

So when we are looking at injectors, why are we trying to use a production injectors for a Motorsport application, if it were that easy, Bosch would not go to all the trouble of producing a range of Motorsport components, including injectors. Yes you can adapt some injectors for Performance/Motorsport applications, but trying to use some of their designs is not the idea answer.

Again, if someone want injectors to meet a budget, then don’t complain when you cant achieve what you expect, it’s the same with mapping ECU’s, some you can make an engine sing and dance, others are limited in what can be done with them, if you buy cheap or something that is not the best for the application, you only get what you pay for, it goes across the board.

Ignorance is not an excuse, but if you are being feed the wrong information, then this is a problem. People visit sites like these and trust “experts” giving their advice, but if the “expert” is giving bias information, then that is not fair and they WILL be found out, it’s only a matter of time before someone puts the question to the test and finds out the truth.

Air being driven down the inlet track runs down the walls, if atomized fuel is fired into the incoming air BEFORE the inlet valve, you will achieve a much more balanced and combustible Air/Fuel ratio.

This will give a better combustion process with more of the fuel being burnt that in turn will deliver a better performance from the engine in the shape of Throttle Response, Torque Curve, and BHP. Improved Fuel Economy will come from more power for the same usage.

Why tuners and users would choose inferior components when they are spending so much money to achieve so much performance, it’s a false economy.
Again, the ECU’s with sequential systems are more expensive, but if a owner and tuner really want to get the best out of an engine, this is the best option, but you have to have a quality injector and the injectors characterisation data to go with it.

FDF (Fuel Droplet Formation) Fuel droplets burn from the outside in, (looking a bit like the sun), they are possibly only in the combustion chamber for fractions of a millisecond before they are drawn out on the exhaust stroke. Any droplets not completely burnt, (and you will never burn 100% of the fuel delivered in a manifold injection system) is wasted fuel. The aim is to make the fuel droplets smaller and lighter, so they mix easier with the incoming air and will burn quicker and better in the combustion chamber.

The ASNU Performance Injectors have been specifically designed to achieve this, with Multihole Sprays with the relevant spray angle to match the flow.
Single hole spray pattern cannot achieve this and atomising on the back of the valve is not the idea process for maximum performance.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings between the use of injectors used for Production and Tuning/Performance/Racing.

[joecar]

Where should an injector's open/close events be located in relation to the intake valve open/close events...?

[ the intake valve will be closed for some of the time that an injector sprays ]


Does the shape of the spray pattern require any modification of this...?

[ASNUPHIL]

I think this says it all.

Customers comments:

Nispro Performance

Due to cold start and tickover problems with the Subaru, we have been looking for a modern high performance injector. Thanks to our sponsor ASNU Fuel Injection the JapPerformanceParts subaru is now running modern 600cc injectors which has made a huge improvement. We've had it on the rollers and tweaked the map a small bit and she is now running very smoothly @ 510 BHP. We will be looking forward to working closely with ASNU in the future!

[J.Abbott]

Crap, I leave for a week and look what happens. I have found some interesting data a
On some stock injectors from other applications that also do not work for the GM stuff. Way more advanced then what I ever initially thought.
Phil, I will be starting to flow the injectors this week.
Howard, talk to you in Carlisle.

[ASNUPHIL]

ASNU Injector Solutions Programme.

Gentleman, i thought you might like to see one of our Injector Solutions for the Ford Focus ST170, which has the 650cc Simens Injectors and not a lot of room or movement.

The customer had mxed out the Siemens at 95% and required some 750cc that would be a straight swap that would perform. No Problem!
ASNU Injector Solutions have the answer, now please tell me that this is what a spray pattern SHOULD look like.

I am only 25 years in this business and see more injectors than most, but if i am wrong, please let me know.

If anyone has a problem finding a solution to an application, let me know, we can help.

[ASNUPHIL]

By the way, there is no trick photography here, what you see is what you get, unlike some other one floating around.Phil.

ASNU Injector Solutions Programme.

Gentleman, i thought you might like to see one of our Injector Solutions for the Ford Focus ST170, which has the 650cc Simens Injectors and not a lot of room or movement.

The customer had mxed out the Siemens at 95% and required some 750cc that would be a straight swap that would perform. No Problem!
ASNU Injector Solutions have the answer, now please tell me that this is what a spray pattern SHOULD look like.

I am only 25 years in this business and see more injectors than most, but if i am wrong, please let me know.

If anyone has a problem finding a solution to an application, let me know, we can help.

[JOHNBOY]

Ok I am going to bring a little life back to this thread. I have question for Phil, Greg, Howard, and anyone else.
What effect does fuel pressure have on all this?
The standard operating pressure for the LS is 58psi (4bar). Now I have ID1000 injectors and am considering running one fuel pump instead of dual stock style pumps for simplicities sake. Using Magnafuel 4303 without a controller. This is a turbo charged engine with a boost referenced return style fuel system. Magnafuel reccomends using 35psi (2.4bar) as my base pressure. They say this will keep load on the pump down and have plenty of room to meet my 800hp base goal.

The difference in the Flow Base easy enough to calculate.

But what happens in the other tables and settings?
I would guess the the minimum pulse would stay the same along with the break point.
Would the small pulse adust change?
What about the voltage adjust? If manifold pressure effects it surely fuel base pressure does?