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Thread: Smoothing the VE Table?

  1. #1
    Lifetime Member Rich Z's Avatar
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    Default Smoothing the VE Table?

    OK guys, I'm a really wet behind the ears newb, but I figure the best way for me to learn is to look over the tune that was done on my car and try to figure out WHY I am seeing what I am seeing.

    I've been reading what I can here, and when provided, I will look at tables and graphs that people have provided of their own tunes.

    So when I looked at the VE Table (B0101) for my tune, I dunno, but I seem to recall that most other graphs just looked SMOOTH rather than having all the jagged edges I see in this one.







    So is marking all the rough edges and merely smoothing them as a group the way to do this, or is there a reason for the jaggedness that I should just leave as is?

    I guess my question boils down to "Is smoothing a magic trick that just makes things better, or do I need to learn much more about this before doing any sort of automated feature?"

    Thanks.

    CorvetteFlorida.com

    2002 Corvette Z06
    427 RHS block built by LME
    STS rear mounted twin turbos
    It nearly died on the operating table, but I'm bringing her back.

  2. #2
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    Wow. Smoothing usually makes it better, but that looks like a hack job. No offense, but thats really bad. Get your WBO2 installed and log it, its going to be all sorts of messed up until 4400rpms.

    Id smooth it by hand, then log it. Might be close, might be way off.
    ~Erik~
    2013 Sonic RS Manual - 1.4L I4T E78, tuned, turbo mods, etc.
    2008 TrailBlazer SS 3SS AWD Summit White - LS2 E67/T42, bolt ons, suspension, etc.
    2002 Chevy TrailBlazer LT 4X4 Summit White - 4.2L I6 P10, lifted, wheels, etc.

  3. #3
    Lifetime Member Rich Z's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm just a newb, but that didn't look all that good to me. This isn't a slap at the tuner who worked on the car for me. He told me that he was just going to get a preliminary tune done, and honestly, I was more interested to see if the car could be tuned and there wasn't something fundamentally wrong going on. After another guy had my car a year before and was pretty much claiming that it could not be tuned, well, I was apprehensive, to say the least.

    The most recent tuner told me he would support the car and tune basically for life, but since that time I have had more mechanical issues to deal with and tuning had to take a back seat. Two bolts missing from the bellhousing, another one loose by a quarter inch, and then Pfadt sending the wrong carbon fiber driveshaft that was too long really did a number on my drivetrain.

    Quite honestly the car actually feels very strong, as is, so I'm curious now to see how much better it will be with the tuning honed a bit.

    I might get the WB hooked up by tomorrow sometime, but with rain in the forecast for the next couple of days, not sure when I'll be able to get it out on the road. Besides, I've still got a heck of a lot to learn, so the time can be put to good use. When you say "smooth it by hand", I don't have a clue about how to do that. Nor do I have any idea about what exactly to log to compare to this table. But I do feel I know a little bit more today than I did yesterday, so it will just take some time to get to where I have an idea about what you guys are talking about. This IS a lot to learn, and I just can't go any faster than I am.

    Thanks.

    CorvetteFlorida.com

    2002 Corvette Z06
    427 RHS block built by LME
    STS rear mounted twin turbos
    It nearly died on the operating table, but I'm bringing her back.

  4. #4
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Hi Rich,

    Yes, by all means, do get all the physical aspects sorted out first.

    If you have a manifold referenced FPR, get your tuner to fix the IFR table and to tune VE/MAF from there (make sure he understands the difference in IFR)

    [ make sure that the FPR is in fact connected to manifold vacuum, otherwise if not, then the IFR is correct in being sloped ]


    To make things easier (and since the IFR will be greatly changed (from sqrt slope to flat)) you may just simply smooth the choppy part of the VE table as Erik said (maybe try to keep the edges the same).


    [ Edit: I already know that Rich has a MAP-referenced FPR, but his IFR table is sloped ]

  5. #5
    Lifetime Member Rich Z's Avatar
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    Joe, yeah I can watch the fuel pressure change with engine loading, so that should be a good indication that the vacuum line to the FPR is working.

    I'm hoping that when my tuner addresses this that I can sort of watch over his shoulder (figuratively speaking) and learn a bit from him.

    It's kind of nice that this program shows what tables had changes made to them in the tune but too bad it doesn't tell exactly WHAT was changed in the table. Or does it, and I just haven't figured out how to access that info? Is there anyway to run a comparision between two tunes and itemize the differences? I used to use something like that in my PC programming comparing source code versions.

    CorvetteFlorida.com

    2002 Corvette Z06
    427 RHS block built by LME
    STS rear mounted twin turbos
    It nearly died on the operating table, but I'm bringing her back.

  6. #6
    Lifetime Member Rich Z's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, as for the mechanical issues, I think I've found everything that needs to be done (knock on wood). I've only got some minor things to do, like replace the rubber lined SS braided hose with PTFE lined hose, and do some heat wrapping on the exhaust. I may want to pressure test the plumbing on the turbos just to make sure there aren't any leaks anywhere that I can't inspect visually. It's been a long rocky road, but I think (hope!) I've found everything mechanically that needs to be fixed. After having the destroyed clutch replaced, I've been taking it pretty easy to break the new clutch in properly.

    CorvetteFlorida.com

    2002 Corvette Z06
    427 RHS block built by LME
    STS rear mounted twin turbos
    It nearly died on the operating table, but I'm bringing her back.

  7. #7
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
    ...

    It's kind of nice that this program shows what tables had changes made to them in the tune but too bad it doesn't tell exactly WHAT was changed in the table. Or does it, and I just haven't figured out how to access that info? Is there anyway to run a comparision between two tunes and itemize the differences? I used to use something like that in my PC programming comparing source code versions.
    Yes, if two tune files have the same OS id, then you can compare them...

    in the tunetool, open the first file as usual (File->Open), then open the second file as the alternate file (File->Open Alternate or something similar)...

    then click the button that has the bidir left/right red arrow, you will see a list of differences, you can click on any difference and it will take you to that table...

    when you're at that table, there are buttons to view the table from file A, from file B, and the difference between A and B.

    The user manual pdf (included in the V7 install) has more info.

  8. #8
    Lifetime Member Rich Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joecar View Post
    Yes, if two tune files have the same OS id, then you can compare them...

    in the tunetool, open the first file as usual (File->Open), then open the second file as the alternate file (File->Open Alternate or something similar)...

    then click the button that has the bidir left/right red arrow, you will see a list of differences, you can click on any difference and it will take you to that table...

    when you're at that table, there are buttons to view the table from file A, from file B, and the difference between A and B.

    The user manual pdf (included in the V7 install) has more info.
    Hey, now that IS pretty cool.

    Thanks for the tip. I'm sure that will come in REAL handy.

    CorvetteFlorida.com

    2002 Corvette Z06
    427 RHS block built by LME
    STS rear mounted twin turbos
    It nearly died on the operating table, but I'm bringing her back.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
    Hey, now that IS pretty cool.

    Thanks for the tip. I'm sure that will come in REAL handy.
    Yes it is, just wait until V8 comes out and you can compare across different OSs.
    ~Erik~
    2013 Sonic RS Manual - 1.4L I4T E78, tuned, turbo mods, etc.
    2008 TrailBlazer SS 3SS AWD Summit White - LS2 E67/T42, bolt ons, suspension, etc.
    2002 Chevy TrailBlazer LT 4X4 Summit White - 4.2L I6 P10, lifted, wheels, etc.

  10. #10
    Lifetime Member Chevy366's Avatar
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    Once everything is working properly, trust your wideband, there should be some dips and peaks, not like in your OP, smoothing only takes away from the exacting data acquired by your wideband.
    2005 1500 HD , Custom OS3 SD tune .
    2006 Trailblazer
    Dinosaurs and Plants gave their lives so that we may drive , long live fossil fuel .

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